Author Topic: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??  (Read 6258 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2012, 09:27:42 AM »
       The very First Thing and by far the Most Important Thing is for ALL of us to pay strict attention to what Artilleryman wrote which follows:   
 
       "My thought (and practice) is that it is extremely important to go through all of the steps of the loading process very carefully.  Clearing the vent and then thumbing the vent with a vent stall through the rest of the cleaning and loading process, removing cartridge bag remnants, damp sponging and dry sponging, seating the powder charge without rupturing the cartridge using a straight pole, seating the projectile without hammering on it.  All of this should be done at a deliberate pace without hurrying."
 
 
     All of this is done to PREVENT a PREMATURE FIRING.  We can't add much except to say that nobody makes us hurry these essentail steps of safe loading.  NOBODY.  This is why we have always refused to participate in any use of cannon fire at football games. 
 
 
      We don't have the time to respond nearly as much as we would like, but we feel obligated to say that the most true statement we have seen among the responses thus far is that written by Subdjoe recently. He wrote this:
 
 "The time for the charge to go off and the rammer to exit the barrel would be way under human reaction time."   
 
     This absolutely true. The time required from when you see or hear something bad happening until you actually can cause your muscles to tighten or loosen your hand is between one one-hundredth and five one-hundredths of a second.  At a velocity of 1,200 feet per second (slowed slightly below normal velocity of bolt only due to greater weight, (5 times greater), the Safety Rammer assembly will fly between 12 feet and 60 feet from the loader's hand.  Not nearly enough time to react to external stimulus, gentlemen.  The assembly is downrange before you can do anything.  You learn lots of neat stuff living next to a medical doctor intern for 3 years.
 
      We said we would seriously consider specific testing method suggestions.  We have.  We did not promise to act on all of these.  Thus, we regretfully and respectfully say we cannot build a safety rammer such as suggested by Victor3.  See below:
 
 

  I use a straight dowel, pushing the charge down and tapping it lightly in place with the head of a rawhide mallet. Only time my fingers are in line with the bore is when I'm starting the charge/dowel at the muzzle.
 
  M&T,
 
  A variation you might consider testing is a straight 1" hardwood dowel for the actuall rammer with a 1" 90 degree copper elbow fitting glued to the end. Then glue in a short (say 8") length of 1" dia balsa wood for a handle. I'm thinking that upon firing, the balsa would simply snap at the fitting, leaving your clay hand without injury. You could probably get the same result using soft pine by filing a notch in the wood near the joint, ensuring that it would break at that point.   

 
      Victor,   I had thoughts along those same lines for the past few days, but I'm sure you will agree that there are many, many ways to construct a highway engineer's "Planned Fault Shear Member" construction which depends on how much difference there is between the "Active half" of the assembly being forced ahead on a force vector coincident with the cannon bore's axis and the "Inertia at Rest half", the handle.  There are hundreds, if not thousands of possible variables to consider.  Major groups would include:  materials, connection hardware including a variety of glues, shapes of crook, any angles of handle, dynamics of crook and handle flexure, load failures of all materials considered.  Just one example of the last item.  Is balsa more likely to fail due to compression, torsion or tension forces?  Beats me.  Victor, I had a tough enough time getting Mike on board for three days of construction and testing, I just can't ask him to participate in "open-ended" experiments.  I just asked him; he glared at me.  He said, "tell him that we must build these safety rammers strong enough to stand up to a couple thousand loadings, minimum.  If you build them that way, they probably won't fail in any predictable way unless you devote a real budget and three months of testing time to develop one with the specification of reliable planned failure of a specific component.  Sorry, I believe your idea is a sound one, but we just don't have the time.
 
 Mike and Tracy
 
    
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12608
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2012, 01:21:56 PM »
Tracy,

Please for give me but I edited your post by highlighting the the most important part of  Norms quote.  Normally all I would do is go in and fix formatting. But what Norm said needs strongly emphasized.

All this talk about safety rammers and do they work is good, is good.  It makes us all think.  The safety rammer is just one link in the chain of safety called the safe load procedures.  Here is the procedures as posted on the American Artillery Association Website

Ten Step Standard Procedure

I Clean the Vent


Clean the vent as the first step in each cleaning, loading and firing sequence. Proceed as follows:

Use a .22 caliber or appropriately sized bronze cleaning brush on a suitable rod and brush the entire vent twice.
   
If no brush is available, the alternative method is to run the priming pick or gimlet up and down the vent twice, twisting to make sure the vent is completely free of powder bag remnants.

II Stop the Vent

Seal the vent with thumb pressure during the entire cleaning and loading process. This means no air should escape the vent from the time the worm enters the muzzle until the rammer is removed after the projectile has been seated. Use a leather thumbstall or heavy glove to protect your thumb to protect your thumb and make a tight seal.

III Worm the Bore

Using a tool with two sharp steel points which replicates an original cannon cleaning worm, worm the bore until all debris is removed.

Turn the worm at the breech to pick up any powder container remnants and to loosen any powder residue. The worm should fit closely so the points will pick up debris easily.

IV Wet Sponge the Bore


Sponge with a wet (but not sopping) tight-fitting sponge with a head of lambswool or wool carpeting over a wooden cylinder affixed to a shaft at least one foot longer than the bore. The end of the sponge head should conform to the shape of the breechplug.
   
Seat the sponge against the breech with hand pressure and give two full rotations of the shaft. Withdraw the sponge half-length, twist, then reseat against the breech and give another two full rotations.
   
Remove the sponge. If any powder container remnants or unburned powder comes out with the sponge, repeat the entire process, starting with Step III Worm.

V Dry Sponge the Bore

After wet sponging, the same procedure is used with the dry sponge. The dry sponge is cleaned and dried off periodically with an absorbent towel-type rag. (The purpose of the dry sponge is to remove excess moisture from the bore; if water is left in the bore it may cause incomplete burning of the next powder charge, leaving dangerously glowing residue.)

VI Load Powder

 Use a crooked shaft U-shaped rammer if available. If not, use a plain wooden pole without a head, or with a smoothly tapered head (made like a U.S. Model 1841 "Mississippi Rifle" ramrod), so that it might force the hand open should premature ignition occur.
   
Mark the rammer in advance in two places, one to show the amount of shaft which should be sticking out the muzzle when the charge is seated and the other to show when the projectile is seated.
   
The ammunition chest should be located 25 feet behind the gun and 25 feet forward of the spectator line. Powder charges should be prepared in advance as specified in Safety Rules 1 and 2 below, wrapped in heavy-duty aluminum foil.
   
Open the chest only long enough to remove one charge in its safety container. (Do not open chest following warning that a gun is about to fire until 10 seconds after that gun has fired to prevent hot vent debris from falling into the chest.)
   
Carry charge to gun in fireproof safety container. Do not proceed to load unless 3 minutes has elapsed since the gun was last fired.

Check your watch.
   
 Open safety container. Remove foil-wrapped charge and place it in the muzzle with one hand while wearing heavy leather gloves (see above).
   
 Wearing heavy gloves, stand to the side of barrel with as much of your body as possible behind the plane of the muzzle. Grasp rammer underhand, with one hand, thumb to the side. Seat the charge lightly with smooth strokes. Do not pound the rammer against the charge.
   
Immediately upon feeling the charge reach the breech, drop your hand away, releasing the rammer. After 10 seconds and after ascertaining the charge is fully home (according to the rammer marks) remove the rammer, one hand, underhand, thumb to the side. This may require grasping and releasing the shaft a few times. Never two hands on the rammer.

VII Load Projectile

   
The projectile loading procedure is the same as that for powder. The rammer is operated with short strokes, one hand, underhand, thumb to the side, until the mark shows the projectile has been fully seated.
   
 No projectile should fit the bore so tightly as to be difficult to seat. All projectiles should pass wasily through a bore sized ring gauge.
   
Be sure the projectile is seated fully against the powder charge.
   
Upon completion of loading, person ramming shall indicate to the person holding the vent that the gun is fully loaded. The vent may then be released.

VIII Pick the Charge

   
To insure ignition, pick the powder charge wrapper through the vent with a pick or gimlet held by the shaft, between glove protected fingers.

    The pick shall be constructed of a non-sparking material.

IX Prime
   
 Priming the vent depends on the type of ignition used. Typical systems are: linstock and priming powder, fuse, priming quills, friction primers, .22 blank, and percussion cap.
   
 If priming powder is used, prime from an open topped container constructed to hold just enough 4F or 3F powder to fill the vent. The priming device should have a handle so that the hand is never over the vent when pouring the loose powder. Priming is not done directly from powder horns or flasks.
   
Hot debris is apt to be blown out the vent on discharge. Crew members should wear hats for protection, spectators kept at a safe distance, and all ammunition chests closed whenever any gun is firing.

X Fire the Gun


The person designated to ignite the charge calls out "Ready to fire" in a loud voice to alert other crews on the line that a gun is about to fire and to notify the gun captain that the piece is primed. At this call, any open ammunition chests are immediately closed. The gun captain makes a quick visual inspection of the range forward of the muzzle to make sure no one is in danger and then commands "Fire". The time between "Ready to Fire" and "Fire" should be at least five seconds. The primer is then ignited.

Priming powder, fuse and priming quills are ignited with a linstock which is long enough to allow the cannoneer to stand outside the wheels. The linstock holds the burning slow match made of cotton rope impregnated with potassium nitrate or lead acetate to make it burn.

If a lanyard is used to ignite friction primers, or to activate a lock using percussion caps or blank cartridge, it should be long enough to allow the cannoneer to stand outside the wheels and out of the way of recoil.

Offline Victor3

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4241
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2012, 07:14:38 PM »
       
      We said we would seriously consider specific testing method suggestions.  We have.  We did not promise to act on all of these.  Thus, we regretfully and respectfully say we cannot build a safety rammer such as suggested by Victor3.  See below:
 
 

  I use a straight dowel, pushing the charge down and tapping it lightly in place with the head of a rawhide mallet. Only time my fingers are in line with the bore is when I'm starting the charge/dowel at the muzzle.
 
  M&T,
 
  A variation you might consider testing is a straight 1" hardwood dowel for the actuall rammer with a 1" 90 degree copper elbow fitting glued to the end. Then glue in a short (say 8") length of 1" dia balsa wood for a handle. I'm thinking that upon firing, the balsa would simply snap at the fitting, leaving your clay hand without injury. You could probably get the same result using soft pine by filing a notch in the wood near the joint, ensuring that it would break at that point.   

 
      Sorry, I believe your idea is a sound one, but we just don't have the time.
 
 Mike and Tracy
 
    

 No problem, just a thought.
 
 I have all of the stuff on hand to make one. If by some miracle I can ever get a couple hours to myself to shoot my 1" cannon again, I'll try it out.  :)
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2012, 12:46:04 PM »
    Nasty weather is due this weekend pushing our Safety Rammer experiments out to next Tuesday, the first day of 50 deg. F. temps and full sunshine which we need for doing the SLO-MOTION video at 1,200 frames per second.  We will need about six 150 watt floodlights as well.  saw horses, 2x4s, etc., etc. will be needed to pull this off.  Note to self:  Don't forget the portable generator!!

    What I really need is some way to stop the pieces of safety rammer from going too far out on the prairie.  I thought of cardboard baffles, but we would need too many, I believe.  Don't have any old carpet which would probably work.  Any other "soft" materials that you guys can think of??

    Thanks Double D. for posting those excellent AAA Safety Regulations.  I have attended their shoots in Westerlo and Saratoga, New York and enjoyed every minute.  We even bought some 7/8" conduit. so Cannonmn should be happy too.  As for Myth Busters, they are right now trying to decide whether or not to call us to remind us to bring an extra 50 pounds of BP along so that if the experiments are lackluster, you can always put a keg under the bench and blow the whole thing, gun, bench, lighting, clays blocks, used safety rammers and all up in a spectacular explosion sure to satisfy all those who have not a clue about the history, the science, the math or the precautions necessary to fire BP Artillery safely today.

Mike and Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline skratch

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 72
  • Gender: Male
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2012, 03:11:32 PM »
Thanks DD for your excellent post on safety and loading procedures.  :)  A copy will be on the inside lid of my limber chest as a reminder to all.
Thanks again,,,well done......
skratch...

Offline 5kwkdw3

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 107
  • Gender: Male
  • Biggest Golf Ball Cannon I Ever Owned.
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2012, 05:43:23 PM »
Quote
Don't have any old carpet which would probably work.  Any other "soft" materials that you guys can think of??

Not to add too much to your already high costs for the experiment, but I've seen some pretty inexpensive tarps of large sizes available at Harbor Freight, both in their stores and on line as well.  Just a thought.  Smithy.
Salvation is through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and in Him alone.

Offline subdjoe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • Gender: Male
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2012, 06:28:28 PM »
   

    What I really need is some way to stop the pieces of safety rammer from going too far out on the prairie.  I thought of cardboard baffles, but we would need too many, I believe.  Don't have any old carpet which would probably work.  Any other "soft" materials that you guys can think of??


Check with a carpet store - likely you could pick up some their installers have torn out.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2012, 06:36:37 AM »
     Thanks Joseph and Smithy,  we do have several old tarps in the storage shed which aren't quite water proof anymore.  They are quite thin though and I wonder how much resistance they will provide.  We will visit some carpet stores today and see if they have any old carpet in their dumpsters.  I think that material might offer the right amount of resistance to the flying pieces.

     "Flying Pieces"  That's what we think there will be right after the safety rammer is launched.  Does anyone think it will leave the muzzle behind as a single unit?  How?   How about in pieces?  Why??


Buy more 2x4s to hang tarps and carpet.

Tracy and Mike
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Zulu

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2477
  • Honor is a gift a man gives himself.
    • Wood & Ironworks
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2012, 07:39:22 AM »
T & M,
I stated a little earlier that I witnessed an exploding ramrod at an Artillery school I attended.  Of course the powder charge probably exceeded 8 oz.
It was a straight rod.
It blew into a whole lot of pieces with the larger pieces going at least 200 feet.  Why?  I can only assume that the pressure of the blast exceeded the strength of the wood.
It will be a very interesting experiment.
Zulu
 
Zulu's website
www.jmelledge.com

Offline GLS

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 125
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2012, 10:28:24 AM »
Did the rammers in recorded accidents shatter or stay intact?

Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2012, 07:25:21 AM »
     
Did the rammers in recorded accidents shatter or stay intact?

     GLS,   We never have seen any details such as you mention here, just injury details, which hospital, etc.


T & M,
I stated a little earlier that I witnessed an exploding ramrod at an Artillery school I attended.  Of course the powder charge probably exceeded 8 oz.
It was a straight rod.
It blew into a whole lot of pieces with the larger pieces going at least 200 feet.  Why?  I can only assume that the pressure of the blast exceeded the strength of the wood.
It will be a very interesting experiment.
Zulu         


    Zulu,    We believe pieces would be normal for a rammer disrupted by a premature discharge, but in a smaller bore, we don't know.  We will see what happens.


    As for when these experiments can be conducted, it's looking like we will have to wait until Sat. or Sun.  We have a report that the recent snow, or rather the melting of that snow made the last 4 miles of hard clay road a slimey, slippery mess.  Until the ground freezes, you have these conditions every year.  While not quite as bad as the Gumbo mud that I used to drive through around Fort Polk, Louisiana, this stuff is slipperier than slug slime!  Two more days dry out time is required.  Full sun and 57 deg. F. predicted for the weekend.  Perfect!!

T&M
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline subdjoe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • Gender: Male
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2012, 08:01:36 PM »
Did the rammers in recorded accidents shatter or stay intact?

I think the answer is "Yes."  I've seen some reports in the past 10 years of rammers being sent whole down range, and others of rammers being sent down range as fragments.  There are a lot of variables.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline intoodeep

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 776
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2012, 03:24:06 PM »
   
    As for when these experiments can be conducted, it's looking like we will have to wait until Sat. or Sun.  We have a report that the recent snow, or rather the melting of that snow made the last 4 miles of hard clay road a slimey, slippery mess.  Until the ground freezes, you have these conditions every year.  While not quite as bad as the Gumbo mud that I used to drive through around Fort Polk, Louisiana, this stuff is slipperier than slug slime!  Two more days dry out time is required.  Full sun and 57 deg. F. predicted for the weekend.  Perfect!!

T&M

 T&M,

 I think I have an answer for that little problem. Just a slight modification and you're good to go....  :D :D :D

If you make it idiot proof, then, someone will make a better idiot.


Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2012, 04:54:35 PM »
   
    As for when these experiments can be conducted, it's looking like we will have to wait until Sat. or Sun.  We have a report that the recent snow, or rather the melting of that snow made the last 4 miles of hard clay road a slimey, slippery mess.  Until the ground freezes, you have these conditions every year.  While not quite as bad as the Gumbo mud that I used to drive through around Fort Polk, Louisiana, this stuff is slipperier than slug slime!  Two more days dry out time is required.  Full sun and 57 deg. F. predicted for the weekend.  Perfect!!

T&M

 T&M,

 I think I have an answer for that little problem. Just a slight modification and you're good to go....  :D :D :D




     Thanks Intoodeep for suggesting this all terrain alternative.  All the screamin Hyabusa engines that I've looked at have been junk.  Thanks to the variety of subjects on the internet, Mike and I have come to believe that our equipment and cannon hauling salvation during this season of uncertain weather demands an unconventional means of power and conveyance.  We have decided to build a Corgi powered sleigh.  We are not sure of how many of these cute critters we need however.  Are you familiar with this breed?  ;)

Mike and Tracy


A team effort!


Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline intoodeep

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 776
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2012, 06:17:10 PM »
Ok, you win.... :(   Continue with testing when ready.

If you make it idiot proof, then, someone will make a better idiot.


Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12608
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2012, 06:28:37 PM »


   
    As for when these experiments can be conducted, it's looking like we will have to wait until Sat. or Sun.  We have a report that the recent snow, or rather the melting of that snow made the last 4 miles of hard clay road a slimey, slippery mess.  Until the ground freezes, you have these conditions every year.  While not quite as bad as the Gumbo mud that I used to drive through around Fort Polk, Louisiana, this stuff is slipperier than slug slime!  Two more days dry out time is required.  Full sun and 57 deg. F. predicted for the weekend.  Perfect!!

T&M


T&M,

 I think I have an answer for that little problem. Just a slight modification and you're good to go....  :D :D :D





     Thanks Intoodeep for suggesting this all terrain alternative.  All the screamin Hyabusa engines that I've looked at have been junk.  Thanks to the variety of subjects on the internet, Mike and I have come to believe that our equipment and cannon hauling salvation during this season of uncertain weather demands an unconventional means of power and conveyance.  We have decided to build a Corgi powered sleigh.  We are not sure of how many of these cute critters we need however.  Are you familiar with this breed?  ;)

Mike and Tracy


A team effort!



Boy you guys sure fight dirty :)

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2012, 08:16:48 PM »
I think they will need more training than will allow a timely resolution of the question at hand.  And maybe a whip longer than practical to reach the lead pair.  Maybe a troika arrangement.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Cannoneer

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3950
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2012, 12:28:11 AM »
Of course they work, I use them all the time.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2012, 07:25:28 PM »
    Hopefully by the time your Thanksgiving bird is just a memory we will have some video results of our Safety Rammer research.  Too many out of town relatives showing up early, doctor's appts, kids needing rides to job interviews, etc., etc.!  My favorite Thanksgiving job as an 8 year old was getting the jellied cranberry sauce out of the can.  That job had all the elements of a perfect boy's job.  You got to use a tool, and a sharp tool at that.  You had to know some science to make the suction release hole in the right area.  And you had lots of atta boys! if you got that slimmering, wiggley fruit cylinder in the center of the little white china plate.  The down side was that all the adults gave you their advice, usually all at the same time.  "Leave my new folder alone boy; you'll chop your fingers off!"  " Don't bend the tip of my new can opener now!"  And my uncle would always be in the way with his huge Nikon SLR trying to capture the moment of finger chopping.  I still remember the pure joy of watching the red plug slowly slide out of the can with a very slight hissing sound and a big SLURP as it released onto the white plate! 

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!

Mike and Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline dominick

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (21)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1367
  • Gender: Male
    • Black Powder Cannons & Mortars
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2012, 02:44:54 AM »
A few years ago I gave my brother in law a small 44 caliber cannon as a christmas or birthday gift  and since he didn't have any projo's to shoot, he decided to use the rammer.  He would load the cannon with about 30 grains of powder and leave the rammer in it and fire the rammer.  :o   :o The rammer did stay intact.  This is a small cannon of course and whether the same hold true for the larger bores will be interesting to see.

Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Re: Safety Rammers - Do they Work?? Testing, Photos & MOVIE clip.
« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2012, 09:22:58 AM »
      We finally made it out to the prairie on Wednesday.  We loaded up my Suburban at Mike’s house with Rammers, powder, shooting benches, blocks of clay, Rammer capture nets (3), special lighting and a portable generator and Seacoast Artillery’s all around excellent camera, the Casio EX-F1, capable of 1,200 frames per second Slow Motion Video. 

      We were correct in one assumption as to what would happen if a cannoneer were to have a Premature Discharge while loading the powder charge with a Shepherd’s Crook Safety Rammer.  Studying the pieces that resulted from this experiment  and the slo-mo video clip, we found that the rammer portion in the bore snapped off very quickly after launch and the “U”-Shaped steel “crook” portion bent so that the divergent angle went from 3 to 75 degrees.  Viewed from above the metal connector, this large increase in divergence means that the un-propelled portion of the safety rammer, tended to stay exactly where it was (Inertia at Rest), and resisted being dragged along by the energetic half of this assembly and snapped very quickly at the metal/wood joint.  All this Mike and I predicted between ourselves. 

     However, what we did not predict is clearly shown on the video,  proving the invaluable nature of the slo-mo video record of these events.  What the video shows, without a doubt, is the fact that the handle end of the handle half of the safety rammer actually rotates outward slightly, away from the cannon as it moves ahead, along the tube and most importantly away from the fingers of the clay “hand”.  We thought, incorrectly, that the handle would not break so quickly and therefore be whipped against the clay hand by the rotating steel connector and thus have a pretty good chance of causing a CCW rotation of the handle resulting in hand “slapping” against the reinforce of the tube which is simulated by a wood block in our experiment.  In short, we thought that the violent counter-clockwise rotation, viewed from above, of the steel connector piece would force the handle inward to “spank” the loader’s hand between it and the tube.

     We carefully removed the gauntlet style welder’s glove from it’s position covering the clay hand.  There were no dents or scrape marks what-so-ever.  See photos we took immediately after the smoke cleared.

     The trajectories of the three missiles that few away from the muzzle were these:  The speediest and one which attained the most distance was the rammer portion which was seating the charge when it went off.  It flew straight out, penetrating all three of the capture nets and landed 75 yards away.  The steel connector piece went out at a vector approximately 30 degrees off dead ahead and to the gun’s right.  It landed 30 feet away.  It just missed the capture net support structure by an inch or so. The handle piece was found beneath the net hanger structure and showed no damage at all except for the fracture were it met the outside lip of the steel connector piece’s socket and an area of scorching near this break from the muzzle blast.  The handle piece went 5 feet.

     When we have more time and can get an earlier start, we will probably conduct more of these experiments.  We did not find time to build the all metal type of safety rammer used by Cannonmn, but after seeing these results, we are really wondering how a rigid steel tube will react to these considerable forces.  Maybe at Christmas we will take a few days off to find out.  So, take a look at the photos and the video and come to your own conclusions.  We respect all opinions and encourage you to share yours.

    Finally, we cannot draw rock solid conclusions from just one test, but we are beginning to think that perhaps Victor2 was correct, that the action of the Safety Rammer breaking up at the joints due to the bore located rammer’s violent acceleration, will ultimately be found to be the leading factor in the saving of the shooter’s gloved hand.

Mike and Tracy



 1)   Mike and our friend Gary assemble some of the Safety Rammer Testing Fixtures.






 2)   Yes, we used our “Ugly Duckling” Universal Cannon Tube Test Fixture for these experiments.  We couldn’t afford to have messed up rifling or deep gouges in our finely finished “Company Gun”.  The important part, the bore is authentic with 7 grooves, a 1/6 scale 7” Brooke Rifled Tube of 1.167” bore dia.  This tube has been used to test scope mount designs, powder charge development, & pressures.




 
3)   The “Carriage” leaves a little to be desired, but we needed the old ½” steel plate which was the basis for our Universal Test Fixture carriage for carriage base plate mfg. when making the Krupp Gun.  This is the special Chassis we made for a 50 Cal. BMG Long Range Rifle we developed 2 years ago.  Taken after the Safety Rammer Test, this photo shows the general layout of equipment for that test.






 4)   Damage to the breech end of the rammer half of the Safety Rammer Assembly.






 5)   Divergence angle of the steel connector went from 3 degrees to 75 degrees as seen here.  Damage to the muzzle end of the rammer part and lack of any damage to the grip portion part of the handle part.






 
 6)   Connector distortion due to applying a large force to only one end of an object which possessed the property of “Inertia at Rest”.  Also a peek at how the “Clay Hand” was mounted.  The wood backing block was exactly the same distance from the bore axis as the Reinforce on our Company Brooke Gun.  The welder’s glove you should Always wear while loading is shown too.






 7)   The Safety Rammer handle DID NOT hit the gloved clay hand.  There is no impact damage at all.






 8)   The end of the Safety Rammer handle WAS NOT supported by the steel blast shield in the test fixture.  It was ½” ahead of that 30 Lb. steel block with enough of the tapered end to be grasped by the shooter’s gloved hand.






 9)   The Safety Rammer Test  Capture Net was unnecessary and will NOT be used in future tests.  Fact is it was easily penetrated and did not capture anything!  Oh well, at least you can see where the bore centered rammer piece went.  2.5 inches out at 4 o”clock from Outland Logo’s end.  That’s the piece that flew 75 yards.  The front net was even reinforced by 12 yards of ½” nylon rope.







 10)   Testing MOVIE CLIP here.  Click on the image to load and play the clip.  Watch it several times.  We encourage you to post your observations.  Exactly what do you see happening?  Can you draw any preliminary conclusions?


[embed=425,349]<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/tq7rhvnoOuo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


 


 
 
 
 [/embed]
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Zulu

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2477
  • Honor is a gift a man gives himself.
    • Wood & Ironworks
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2012, 10:42:49 AM »
M&T,
Wow!  You guys went through a lot of trouble.  This was very interesting.  Thanks a lot for doing it.
The bend in the metal is a surprise to me.  I also expected the hand to be crushed against the barrel.
Zulu
Zulu's website
www.jmelledge.com

Offline GLS

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 125
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2012, 11:53:35 AM »
Excellent.  I would rather have my hand on a short piece going away than a long piece plus fire coming toward your hand.

Offline Cannon Cocker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 511
  • Gender: Male
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #53 on: November 24, 2012, 12:58:08 PM »
M and T come through once again.  The scientific method......it's a beautiful thing.  Was also surprised at the bend in the metal.  Without the wood link between the metal, I'm guessing you could get quite a twang. 

Offline Cannon Cocker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 511
  • Gender: Male
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2012, 01:01:07 PM »
An all metal rammer would kick a lot more, is what I mean.

Offline The Jeff

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 255
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #55 on: November 24, 2012, 03:54:07 PM »
Thanks for doing these experiments. A little bit of hard evidence is worth a lot of speculation.

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12608
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #56 on: November 24, 2012, 05:43:21 PM »
I suspected the  rammer would have been pulled from the fingers rather than the hand being pulled into the barrel.  Basic self defense-hand-to-hand combat training teaches pulling away from the fingers to break way from simple hand grab.   

What does concern me more would the likelihood of a shattered hand or wrist from this exercise.

Thanks Seacoast Guys for a very interesting test.

Offline Victor3

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4241
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2012, 06:56:29 PM »
 M&T,


 Thanks for doing the test. Very interesting.


 One thing I noticed is that your wood pieces are turned down to a shoulder at the ends to fit into the sockets on the steel piece. I wonder how the results would have been different if those stress risers were absent.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline subdjoe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • Gender: Male
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2012, 03:36:30 AM »
What I find interesting is that both shear points (sockets where the wood goes into the metal hook) sheared. 

Thanks for doing these tests and posting the results so quickly.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2012, 03:52:17 AM »
      Thanks for all the responses; we did this experiment because we had to find out what would happen.  We had no other motivation.  I really don’t think that placing a projectile in the mix will change anything, but the next time out we will try that too and the all metal tube type Shepherd’s Crook Safety Rammer just to know what happens.

     Zulu, GLS, Cannon Cocker, and  The Jeff, we are with you 100% on your comments as we were and still are thinking along those lines.  Double D.,  When you wrote the following words, we got some of those primal chills that people get when they sense great danger is imminent:  “What does concern more would the likelyhood of a shatter hand or wrist from this exercise.” 

     The more we think about what happened to our wood AND metal Safety Rammer, the more that construction seems to be right.  But to be clear, we don’t know what will happen with an all metal rammer, so we will find out during the week after Christmas.  We will also send two more wood and metal types downrange, one with a half pound bullet, to see if number one was a fluke or if the results can be confirmed. 

     Victor3,  You wrote:  My computer is freezing up, so just look at Victor's last comment line. ”  We will find out at Christmastime, because that’s the way we built the last one which we will test.

                      If anyone has a different theory as to why the “Clay Hand: was not wacked, please post it.  All ideas are welcome.  Now if Gary would get down here with his camera, we could all see his video which shows what the capture net’s reaction was to this experiment. 

     We also agree with what Joe just wrote; we were conflicted as to our expectations if the handle joint would break, especially firing “only a Blank".  Guess those Blanks have plenty of power!

Mike and Tracy

 

 
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling