Author Topic: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??  (Read 6259 times)

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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2012, 07:22:33 AM »

     We also agree with what Joe just wrote; we were conflicted as to our expectations if the handle joint would break, especially firing “only a Blank".  Guess those Blanks have plenty of power!

Mike and Tracy

My surprise is that BOTH weak points broke, not just one. Maybe it's because of the U shape - the one inline with the bore fails, but there is enough force to cause the metal to bend out and break the wood on the other joint too. 

Wonder what an all wood rammer would do?
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Artilleryman

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #61 on: November 25, 2012, 08:22:07 AM »
It would appear that the shepherd's crook rammers greatly reduce the possibility of serious injury.  A question that I have is, what is the longest barrel length that they could be used on without becoming too cumbersome if not dangerous?
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #62 on: November 25, 2012, 12:29:23 PM »
     

     We also agree with what Joe just wrote; we were conflicted as to our expectations if the handle joint would break, especially firing “only a Blank".  Guess those Blanks have plenty of power!

Mike and Tracy

My surprise is that BOTH weak points broke, not just one. Maybe it's because of the U shape - the one inline with the bore fails, but there is enough force to cause the metal to bend out and break the wood on the other joint too. 

Wonder what an all wood rammer would do?   


     Joe,  we highlighted your comments in red above, because we agree 100% with the cause of breaking in the first and we both wonder about what an all wood Safety Rammer would do as well.  Mike has even gone to the computer for some help on home or small shop wood steaming set-ups to get wood to bend.  He actually found out a really interesting fact.  White oak is one of the easiest woods to bend and can be bent into some really small radius curves.  We sure know how to work white oak, but we never have bent it, however I just ordered six 36" long, 1" Dia.  white oak dowels for Mike to experiment with.  No promises, but we may have one which is useable someday.  Would an all wood safety rammer break??  Who knows?  Not us.



It would appear that the shepherd's crook rammers greatly reduce the possibility of serious injury.  A question that I have is, what is the longest barrel length that they could be used on without becoming too cumbersome if not dangerous?

     Artilleryman, your statement above is why we like them and why we have used them for almost seven years now, after many years of using the traditional straight rammers for loading cannons.

     As to your pertinent question about what is the longest bore this style of Safety Rammer could be effectively used in, we don't have an expert to call on locally, but by just using weight of wood shafts, connectors (steel) we come up with a probable Yes on something as long as the Light 12 Pdr, Field Gun, Model 1857 which is 63.6" depth of bore with an additional 12" to make sure that the connector WILL NOT hit the muzzle if pushed into an unloaded tube.  The approximate weight, using a 1.5" Dia. Ash shafts, 6.3 feet long (2x) with a Hickory head on one and a 2 Lb. steel connector between them, is 10.5 Lbs., total, about 5 or 6 pounds less than I imagined it would be.  I have a couple two foot sections of 1.5" Ash shaft on hand, so it was easy to calculate the wood weight.  The connector weight is a SWAG, so may be a half pound off.  Even 11 Lbs is not terrible to lift and 6 feet long is not overly awkward, especially with a little practice.  While it's doable at that length, for a 30 Pdr. Parrott Siege Gun, maybe not!  A Seacoast Gun?  Definitely not!

Tracy and Mike
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Cannon Cocker

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #63 on: November 25, 2012, 01:30:11 PM »
I have thought about making a safety rammer before and decided that the simplest way to make one would be to epoxy dowels into two copper plumbing elbows.  This would be pretty close to an "all wood" safety rammer.  I also like the idea of having the dowels taper to the diameter of the elbows for an additional weak point which seemed to work well on the test.  Just a thought.

Offline Artilleryman

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #64 on: November 25, 2012, 01:31:50 PM »
I was trying to imagine using a shepherd's crook rammer on a long bore without getting too far out in front of of the plane of the muzzle face.  Holding an 11 pound, 6 foot shaft by the end may be a little more difficult than you might think.  I wonder what might happen if the gun discharged with most of the shaft handle past you as you stand between the muzzle face and the axle of the gun.   
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline subdjoe

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #65 on: November 25, 2012, 03:10:31 PM »
T&M, I know the implements for that Light 12 Pdr, Field Gun, Model 1857, can start feeling pretty darned heavy and cumbersome after 5 or 6 rounds at a reenactment.  Seems to me that on most full sized field guns, unless built like Chas. Atlas, the user would soon be stepping forward of the muzzle to a dangerous extent.  Just my out of shape ha'penny.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #66 on: November 26, 2012, 02:46:14 PM »
      Your very informative comments are appreciated gentlemen.  Having not shot a full size Civil War cannon, we can only imagine what the manipulations of this type of Safety Rammer in size large would be like.  The word ungainly comes to mind.  However, if you were not pressed for time by Competition dictates or going for battlefield realism as the Reinactors do, then the use of this equipment would be much easier to accomplish and, with practice, could be reduced to fluid movements.   Mike and I frequently take 10 or 12 minutes between shots, primarily because we are usually going for accuracy in an organized, methodical way, eliminating the variables by doing each operation the very same way each time. 

     If you reduce the frequency of yours shots substantially, you will not become winded or cause muscle soreness.  As for  “what might happen if the gun discharged with most of the shaft handle past you as you stand between the muzzle face and the axle of the gun.” This is a very legitimate concern that I have as well.  If the shaft of your handle piece is made of good straight grain Ash wood, it should stay in one piece and merely heat up your glove as it exits the area upon Premature Firing.  Also, because it is so much heavier than the size we use with the one inch guns, chances are very good that you might find it lying on the ground only a few feet away (the handle part, not the other part which could go out to 200 yards or more), the wood metal joints will almost certainly fail instantly with a handle of 5 times the mass having the property of Inertia at Rest. 
 
     Reducing risk is why we use a safety rammer.  Any Risk Management professional will tell you that there are basically three ways to do that. 

                                 1)   Use risk reducing equipment.

                                 2)   Use new risk adverse methods.

                                 3)   Reduce the frequency of exposure.

     The equipment we have talked about.  A risk adverse method for you or your crew might be something like going over the reasons why you perform each step of a well thought out cleaning procedure with an emphasis on practice and evaluation.  We once discussed the why of having a tough, but supple and flexible thumbstall with several cannon shooters with many more years of experience than we had and had some very reasonable responses like, “I see what you mean about the fact that a stiff piece of leather like a shoe sole, would probably NOT seal the vent.”  Also, they did not even know why this is done.  One fellow thought that procedure might be to keep all that black goo from going up the vent and messing up their uniforms. In a dead level conversational tone, we explained that while that might be an additional benefit, the real reason was so that moving air in the bore and vent would not fan any embers that may still exist.

      Moving on,  perhaps a more formal set of training sessions for new members of the battery would be useful.  The frequency of exposure can be improved very simply as well.  Show some intestinal fortitude and say NO to requests for your group to perform like trained seals at every public event that could use a cannon.  We ALWAYS say NO to Football Game requests which are, by far the absolute worst events to attend, because of the……….HURRY UP AND SHOOT THE DARN THING!!  Attitude and Directions you get from the school’s go-between. 

Other ideas about this important subject are again welcome.

Mike & Tracy
 
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Victor3

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2012, 01:09:17 AM »
 On full-size cannon, if one were ready to toss all ideas of historicity in favor of safety concerning the form of a rammer, I believe a light one constructed of ABS tubing could be designed to satisfy ergonomic concerns (weight) while still being both strong enough to do the job and frangible enough to break apart without injury to the operator in the event of a premature ignition.


 However, I doubt many a self-respecting reenactor would want to charge his gun with a hunk of sewer pipe.  ;)
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Double D

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2012, 02:44:37 AM »
Here's my concern with tubing, any tubing.  Some how,  some way in a discharge, gases are going to find their way into that the tubing and be vented   inside and around that tube and out the end. 

If you have ever ruptured a primer in a gun or seen a cartridge burst you know gases find there way around, down and into everywhere.

The gas  that goes in the tube will also be contained and focused and will not be significantly diminished when it comes out---that's my theory.  How about testing that Seacoast Guys?  Seems  pretty important to know what not to use also.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2012, 01:07:44 PM »
     George Gaskill wrote:  "The angular divergence versus parallelism will also be of interest."  Sorry I missed your comment, George.  You know what, I've always wondered that myself.  We don't need the extra room, but it seems almost traditional among the types that we've seen to have a 3 to 5 degree divergence between the rammer shaft and the handle shaft, so we built ours that way. If all goes well and according to the new schedule, you and everyone else will know if a parallel set-up works or not the day after tomorrow.

Victor3 wrote:  "I doubt many a self-respecting reenactor would want to charge his gun with a hunk of sewer pipe.  ;)"

     I agree Victor;  I just can't see that ever happening.

Double D. opined:

 

Here's my concern with tubing, any tubing.  Some how,  some way in a discharge, gases are going to find their way into that the tubing and be vented   inside and around that tube and out the end. 

If you have ever ruptured a primer in a gun or seen a cartridge burst you know gases find there way around, down and into everywhere.

The gas  that goes in the tube will also be contained and focused and will not be significantly diminished when it comes out---that's my theory. How about testing that Seacoast Guys?  Seems  pretty important to know what not to use also.   
   

     Mike and I both agree with DD; there is a chance of errant, super heated, gasses going places that could cause the shooter a problem (Scorching).  I really have my doubts about what metal tubing might do under the unequal load we have upon these assemblies.  Will it fail in the "Crook" area?  Or, much , much worse, will it FLAIL around like a tail caught weasle and take a piece out of your hide?  DD, when we test the bent tubing safety rammer like Cannonmn uses, I hope we will have an answer for you.  I'll even epoxy several match heads to the inside of the tube at the end of the handle to check for hot gasses.

     We are going shooting much sooner than I planned on because the weather is so nice.  We will use one of our two spare safety rammers for that test with a stout blank of 650 grains.  We will also shoot a similar load with Cannonmn's all Metal style safety rammer if we can get the conduit bent tight enough.  Bruce, our sculptor friend is over today and he used to be an electrician, so we will get some help with the bending!  Hate to waste all 10 feet that I bought!!  The last one will be an armor penetrator load for the Brooke of 648 grains behind a 9 oz. Brooke designed, wrought iron bolt and the solid Ash rammer shaft on top of that.

     I had to agree to leave everything extra behind to get some help though.  No Capture Nets,  WAAAA, WAAAAA......No Capture Net Hanger Structure, No extra Bright Lights and the portable Generator to run them, Boo Hoo.  That's O.K., Mike and Gary promise a naturally bright full Sun day so super slo-mo should still work O.K.  Looking forward to it, gentlemen.  Any questions??

     We will NOT set up Cannonmn's style safety rammer for failure.  The screw holes in the tube will be a tight fit with the 1/4-20 screws that we have and the turned aluminum rammer head will be a force fit into the rammer shaft tubing end and will overhang the tubing walls slightly by 1/16".  If it fails in some way, it will not be because of sloppy assembly.

M&T




     
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #70 on: November 27, 2012, 04:18:45 PM »
If the rammer head caps the tubing, venting should be unlikely.  If the rammer head is inserted into the tubing venting likelihood is increased.

If those gases vent in that tubing, they won't be scorching they will be searing and cutting.  Forget the match heads, they may become hazardous flaming projectiles.  Just cover the end with masking tape and stay out of the way.

Also suggest you move the camera further back for a wider field of view.


Offline subdjoe

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #71 on: November 27, 2012, 09:31:12 PM »
On full-size cannon, if one were ready to toss all ideas of historicity in favor of safety concerning the form of a rammer, I believe a light one constructed of ABS tubing could be designed to satisfy ergonomic concerns (weight) while still being both strong enough to do the job and frangible enough to break apart without injury to the operator in the event of a premature ignition.


 However, I doubt many a self-respecting reenactor would want to charge his gun with a hunk of sewer pipe.  ;)

Hmmm....you would need heavy walled stuff to keep it from bending too much just handling it.  A regular rammer for a Napoleon is nigh on to 7' long.  Then add on your hook, and another shaft.  Darned thing will wobble and wiggle all over the place. 
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #72 on: November 27, 2012, 10:30:52 PM »
If you use Tees for the joints instead of elbows, there would be two vents in the immediate area of the muzzle end of the tube rammer that should vent most of the gasses.
GG
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Offline Victor3

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2012, 02:02:13 AM »
 That's kind of what I was thinking, but with one tee and one (plugged) elbow.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Victor3

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2012, 02:12:30 AM »
On full-size cannon, if one were ready to toss all ideas of historicity in favor of safety concerning the form of a rammer, I believe a light one constructed of ABS tubing could be designed to satisfy ergonomic concerns (weight) while still being both strong enough to do the job and frangible enough to break apart without injury to the operator in the event of a premature ignition.


 However, I doubt many a self-respecting reenactor would want to charge his gun with a hunk of sewer pipe.  ;)

Hmmm....you would need heavy walled stuff to keep it from bending too much just handling it.  A regular rammer for a Napoleon is nigh on to 7' long.  Then add on your hook, and another shaft.  Darned thing will wobble and wiggle all over the place.


 I don't know; it's pretty stiff in larger diameters. More so than PVC.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Victor3

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #75 on: November 28, 2012, 02:31:09 AM »
Victor3 wrote:  "I doubt many a self-respecting reenactor would want to charge his gun with a hunk of sewer pipe.  ;)"

I agree Victor;  I just can't see that ever happening.





 Yep. Some reenactors go to great lengths to ensure historicity, don't they?  ;)
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #76 on: November 28, 2012, 02:32:52 AM »
     I am getting excited, the weather is holding and I am surrounded by blackpowder cannon shooting stuff which will shortly be in the old Suburban.  Didn't get a chance to bend that steel conduit as our electrician friend had other commitments, but we get'er done before the New Year!

     I think we will add one more to today's schedule instead. Cannon Cocker had mentioned that a wood and plumbing elbow rig might be good.  We used one like that for two years before we built our better looking wood and steel version.  If I can find it, we will shoot it down range today.

     Victor3 said he thought a wood shaft straight into the steel coupling might be stronger with no stress riser in the wood design at the joints.  We will fire one like that today and see what happens.

     Our esteemed West Coast moderator mentioned a parallel shaft set-up might provide different results.  We will shoot one of those today to see what happens.

      And our often quoted Global Moderator suggested backing off a bit to show more of the action.  Good suggestion, Douglas!  Last time we wanted to show that block of clay be split in two, if that were to occur.  Somehow, I think that is less likely to happen now after seeing how the first handle flew away, pretty much straight away.

      Finally, we really thought as Zulu did,  that there was a 50-50 chance that your hand would get whacked between the handle and the tube.  Who knows maybe one version will still do that.  We will see. I must remember to focus the camera with a still before switching to movie mode.  Focus, focus, focus!

Last thought:  I wonder what that half pound bullet is going to do to to the rammer shaft of my fourth Safety Rammer???

Tracy and Mike
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #77 on: November 28, 2012, 09:55:08 AM »
I wonder what that half pound bullet is going to do to to the rammer shaft of my fourth Safety Rammer???

I would think it would depend on the shape of the front end.  If the shot is strongly pointed, there may be a significant risk of wedging.  If mostly flat and both pieces are contacting each other at ignition, I would not expect much difference.
GG
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #78 on: November 28, 2012, 06:52:09 PM »
What did it do !  It blew to bits  ::) , film to follow I'm sure  8)  .
 
There is NO doubt that the "ball" round packed much more energy .  WAY !!!
 
We all shot a new steel target I bought from Sooters Element in AZ . I have never seen steel like this .... 500 Brinell or about 50 something on the rockwell C scale .
 
M193 .223 at 50 yards did nothing to the surface ,OF course a CANNON might do more ;) .
 
Today was revolver day with Tracy's new .44 super Black Hawk which is a Cannon. Mike and a good freind Bruce blasted away 1873 type CANNONS the gong rings very nice .
 
All in all a good day watching ramrods fly through the air and ground (think "skip bombing")
 
Sooner or later we will need to shoot this target with a cannon ....BUT not soon ;) .
 
Gary
 
 
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #79 on: November 29, 2012, 12:37:31 PM »
    As Gary already told you, it was an excellent day with almost no wind at all which was appreciated as the temp was 47 deg. F., a little brisk.  I bet you fellows didn’t know that Safety Rammer testing is a real “High Brow” activity.  From the looks of some of the videos, it is.  You could see parts of safety rammers pirouetting across the prairie like ballet dancers in the “Nutcracker” and a bit of what Gary wrote about too with his “skip bombing” comment.  And in another you have wreckage flying everywhere as in a WWII clip of a plane hit by ack-ack fire.

     The Clay Hand got whacked too!  You’ll have to watch the videos to see which test firings did this.  Don’t be disappointed about this; after each test, I counted every finger on the Clay Hand and found them all to be still attached.  A nasty bruise, some black and blue, but you get to keep your fingers!  It’s not a bad trade-off.

Lots of info in the pics displayed; take a close look.

Mike & Tracy


 
11)   The gloved “Clay Hand” set-up is the same as before.  You can see the interesting “Triangular” or Hook-Slant rifling of the   7” Brooke, 1/6 scale 1.167” Dia. bore   if you enlarge this photo a bit.






11b)  Got two emails for a better enlargement of the Brooke modified Hook-Slant rifling, so here is one from the original photo.






12)   Cannon Fodder





13)   Mike convinced me to leave the generator and the lights at home; he promised a bright sunny day.  He lied.  Fortunately the EX-F1 was up to the task and produced some excellent video clips at 1,200 frames per second.





14)   I’m pointing to the wood/metal joint; it’s the type where the wood goes straight into the socket without the stress-riser of a reduced dia, step down style.  Actually we made all of them like this as we didn’t have any 1” Ash dowel, only ¾”.





15)   This shot was fired with a reduced charge of 400 grains of BP just to see if the Safety Rammer assembly would stay together and what would happen if it did.  Normal charges for our cannons of this size is 518 grains to 648 grains.  The last charge is an exact 1/6 scale representation of the 20 Lb., armor penetrator charge used by Rebel Artillerymen to defeat Federal Ironclads.




 16)   Movie Clip-Please click on link or image.  For those unfamiliar with You-Tube style videos, you can enlarge the image by clicking the icon in the bottom right of the little movie window that comes up. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfMoOtilcOo&feature=g-crec


17)   The reduced powder charge of Test 1 allowed the Safety Rammer to remain intact.  This a good thing, right?   WRONG, when you consider the whacking the handle gave the clay hand.






18)   No tears in the heavy welder’s glove so the fingers are still attached, but ouch.







19)   How the Seacoast “Sticky Worm” works every time on smaller .75” to 1.75” bore dia. cannons.  That aluminum foils conforms to the hemispherically terminated, 15 deg, tapered chamber designed by CSN Commander John Brooke.







20)   I am pointing to the copper plumbing fixture elbows and connector piece we used to build Seacoast Artillery’s first Safety Rammer in 2002.  If you want instant separation as we do, this rig will do it.  Cheap and easy to make, we rate this configuration as very effective too.







21)   Seacoast’s first and original Safety Rammer prepares for flight.  The handle piece is barely propelled, because of the rapid separation, but does some ballet moves across the prairie that would make a Russian ballerina jealous!





22)   The Movie







23)   The Clay Hand was untouched in Test 2, the copper, plumbing connector Test.






24)   Rammer shaft destruction; how would you like to catch those pieces glove or no glove??







25)   I am holding the parallel rammer and handle Safety Rammer per GGaskill.  Not enough room between shafts to get it into the Clay Hand whacking position, so it was tested with the standard load of 518 grains for integrity after the test only.  We were pleased to see that it failed like the others, most  beautifully.







26)   Mike does the honors and the .45 Colt cal. revolver is a reminder to me not to come up with any more “Special Projects” for the next few months, at least!






27)   Movie clip of Test 3.





28)   Wood metal joints failed quickly on this Parallel Safety Rammer.






29)   Saving the best for last, here is the long awaited “Half Pound Bolt and Safety Rammer Test”.  We used our armor piercing load of 648 grains of BP for this test.  This load really makes the carriage scoot, but it’s also very accurate.  Lots of action in this Video.  You have to run it at least 3 times to see all the different things that are happening.







30)   Test 4, the Video.  The best one!



31)   The configuration of the heavy 60 pound shooting bench, the chassis with steel rails, the landscape timber carriage and  7” Brooke bored testing cannon. Do you see how that cannon could go over the back edge and do a face plant on the ground?  It did in this test.  We all took cover behind the Suburban for this test.  7,600 Lbs of Detroit iron is pretty good cover.







32)   Looks like another whacking occurred.  Once again the fingers remained attached.  That’s the important thing.





 
33)   On view is an intact but scorched handle, a bent open steel connector and a thoroughly destroyed rammer shaft.  These are the results.  Tell us what you think!


 
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Cannon Cocker

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #80 on: November 29, 2012, 02:36:51 PM »
Discerning cannoneers turn to M and T for their mythbusting.   I think I'd stick with the copper pipe design and trade a little aesthetics for a stout hand spanking.  Any of these styles are already so far from being period accurate, it might as well be as safe as possible.   It also seems logical that if the rammer portion and handle were parallel, the handle wouldn't be pulled towards center by centrifugal force.  Not having used one of these, is there a big advantage to the spread open design.   This could have more to do with the spanking than the copper pipe vs. steel u shape design. 

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #81 on: November 29, 2012, 02:38:06 PM »
Looks like the worst of them could cause broken bones but those normally heal to good as new if properly treated.  A lot better than disconnected parts.  Seems like an open to shut case that the safety rammer is a functional and safe as possible way to load muzzle loading artillery, period correctness notwithstanding.

But the reenactors will persist in the old ways.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline The Jeff

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #82 on: November 29, 2012, 02:46:25 PM »
Impressive!


I've never used a safety rammer so I don't know how practical this would be, but it seems that the safest place to hold it would be at the very end with just your fingers. Hopefully the shaft would move between your fingers in the event of a whacking if not slipping away altogether.

Offline Double D

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #83 on: November 29, 2012, 03:38:02 PM »
Looks like the worst of them could cause broken bones but those normally heal to good as new if properly treated.  A lot better than disconnected parts.  Seems like an open to shut case that the safety rammer is a functional and safe as possible way to load muzzle loading artillery, period correctness notwithstanding.

But the reenactors will persist in the old ways.

George,

I agree with you for small scale cannons-functional and safe.  But by it's very nature-size and awkwardness in full scale guns, it is only marginally functioinal  and this not necessarily safer.

Further I believe the usefulness of the crook rammer only comes into play when proper loading procedures are not followed. 

I can not ever remember reading about an accident involving premature discharge that did not involve improper loading procedures. 


Offline Cannon Cocker

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #84 on: November 29, 2012, 06:46:35 PM »
I for one am sold on the idea where possible up to a scale where it becomes awkward.  I will now make some that I had planned and put off.  As for the stuff about only needing them if safety procedures are not followed, I don't buy it.  Even with the best intentions things don't always go as planned.  Even if no mistakes are made, the unknown and unknowable is always possible.  I am pretty sure Goex has a honed safety routine, yet recently had an explosion.  I can't say I will always use the safety rammers I make for all events, but for the range and practice, it seems like a no brainer. 

Offline GLS

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #85 on: November 30, 2012, 02:01:43 AM »
This testing definetly answered my questions as I see the results.  I am adding safety rammers to my loading equipment.  I like my hands and have seen what a small lapse in safety can do.
Back in the mid 70's I had a aquaintance that rammed his 3/4" bore cannon with his finger.  He was a history teacher demonstrating a model civil war cannon to a bunch of 5th grade students. The cannon premature fired, he was standing there looking at his hand minus a finger and the kids all ran away screaming.  What was left of the finger was found on top of the school roof.  His immediate comment before the pain set in was stupid, stupid, why did I do that.   
Thanks M&T

Offline skratch

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #86 on: November 30, 2012, 08:39:10 AM »
Thanks folks for your excellent job of testing.  :)  Very good info, easy to follow. I'm convinced the crook reamers would be safer and will be making one.


John....

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #87 on: November 30, 2012, 01:50:38 PM »
     Looks like everyone is processing the information which came from this Safety Rammer testing logically and without any politics from what I gather.  This is good and is what Mike and I were hoping for.  Remember always that your first line of defense is a complete knowledge of a safe cleaning procedure and constant adherence to executing the steps as completely and accurately as you can.

     What we learned from these series of tests is that the more frangible connectors seem to let go instantly which separates the propelled shaft from the un-propelled one quickly allowing the handle piece to gently drift away from the hand and only go about 5 feet.  We like this type for two reasons:  one, it keeps your body parts away from flying rammer shafts and projectiles and two, it presents a much reduced chance of hand trauma from slapping.  That's the type for us, but you will have to decide for yourselves.  We are NOT promoting any type, nor will we be making any for sale. 

Note to Seacoast staff: build another Safety Rammer, because you destroyed all those available at Seacoast World Headquarters!

Regards,

Mike and Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Victor3

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #88 on: November 30, 2012, 11:16:00 PM »
As for the stuff about only needing them if safety procedures are not followed, I don't buy it.  Even with the best intentions things don't always go as planned.  Even if no mistakes are made, the unknown and unknowable is always possible.  I am pretty sure Goex has a honed safety routine, yet recently had an explosion.  I can't say I will always use the safety rammers I make for all events, but for the range and practice, it seems like a no brainer.


 I agree.


 How many of us have followed a safe loading procedure to the letter every single time we've fired our cannons? Not a one.


 In the factory where I work, we still have old machines without modern safety devices (double hand sensors, light curtains, etc.). These machines are still very safe to operate, but only if established safety procedures are followed 100%. Fact is, people get distracted and forget a step, take short cuts, or just aren't fully trained on safety procedures.

 Effective "engineering controls" (design of equipment, like a safety rammer) that isolate an operator from a hazard are far more effective in preventing injuries than relying on the best intended "administrative controls" (safety procedures like sponging, vent-stopping, etc.).
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Victor3

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Re: Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??
« Reply #89 on: November 30, 2012, 11:49:38 PM »
 M&T,


 On your "clay hand," I wonder how the results may have differed if it were wrapped around the handle. I imagine the weight of the clay being attached to the shaft might have allowed less of a slapping effect(?)
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes