Author Topic: Toby's web site (Read 2288 times)

DEPUTY · « **on:** February 10, 2004, 07:30:59 PM »

I had to laugh sorry Randy but will Toby ever actually shoot and review the ultimate rifle? (I dont think he will) so he really cant claim knowledge of the gun without doing that maybe he should ask ron taig who is shown on his web page sicne i know ron and his proffesion and i know he shoots a early model of the ultimate, But then again how can toby claim the web site to be going into high tech muzzleloading when he wont even look at the gun yes the savage is nice will i get one to add to my collection maybe! but he should really at least give the gun a chance and try it.

ok rant off

big6x6 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 11, 2004, 01:34:02 AM »

PERSONALLY, I'm not about to fill out a from 4473 to purchase a muzzleloader, ANY muzzleloader. One of the reasons I enjoy muzzleloaders so is I can order one and have it delivered to my home. THEN if I want to sell it, I may ship it to someone elses' home.

Also, considering "high performance," won't the Savage out perform the Ultimate in practically every way using less than 50gr of V-V N110?

I also find Tobys site to be VERY informative. It IS one of my favorite sites.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #2 on:** February 11, 2004, 03:38:47 AM »

Quote from: DEPUTY

I had to laugh sorry Randy but will Toby ever actually shoot and review the ultimate rifle?

Have to ask Toby on that one-- have they ever bothered to send one to him for review?

DEPUTY · « **Reply #3 on:** February 11, 2004, 08:34:09 AM »

if i recall he was offered one he refused i belive, i will recheck that out but iam sure 100% he was offered.

woodseye · « **Reply #4 on:** February 11, 2004, 11:05:26 AM »

Quote

I also find Tobys site to be VERY informative. It IS one of my favorite sites.

I agree Chuck, Toby is at the cutting edge of Savage Ml'ing and is doing a heck of a job at testing new loads and products and fighting the anti smokeless campaigns in some states also.

I don't believe the Savage can be bettered at this point ballistically.

Quote

will Toby ever actually shoot and review the ultimate rifle?

I believe he has and does all the time...........its called the 10ML ll Savage :wink:

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/FAQ.html

Heres the link to this supergun discussion..........grin. I wonder if anyone has considered the recoil 250gr's of pyrodex behind a 300gr bullet would generate? I agree with Toby, theres no way it would do what they claim when 150gr's barely gets above 2000fps. Toby probably doesn't want to be associated too closely with these claims and knows that the 2600fps barrier is hard enough to get past with sub-bases and the latest sabot technology. The Savage would shoot much faster if the technology were there, thats the limiting factor not gun strength or powder charge.

Sounds like these guys are blowing err.......shooting smoke on this one, and not too pratically either.

woods[/quote]

DEPUTY · « **Reply #5 on:** February 11, 2004, 11:37:27 AM »

it is a good sight just wish he would shoot the gun! i was out looking at the savage today nice gun we will see if i get one

DEPUTY · « **Reply #6 on:** February 11, 2004, 12:41:56 PM »

Randy if your at the show this weekend so will the guys from ultimate! yes toby has been offered to shoot the gun! and woodeye ill put it up against any bp gun on the market! the savage is only getting so much talk beacuse of it cost and smokless powder yes its a great gun but it isnt even in the same league as the ultimate and the velcoities are much better than the savage, the recoil isnt that bad with a 250 charge also maybe checking with kenny darwin the outdoor writer about his ultimate all iam asking for is a good honest test thats all the ulitmate is the safest and strongest and most powerfull on the market today

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #7 on:** February 11, 2004, 01:30:40 PM »

Quote from: DEPUTY

it isnt even in the same league as the ultimate and the velcoities are much better than the savage,

Deputy,

With a "isn't in the same league" comment, I really have to wonder how many Savage 10ML-II's you have owned and fired? Just what is it you seek to do with a muzzleloader that you feel the Savage is deficient at?

I've not tested an "Ultimate Muzzleloader,"-- so, I'm hardly in a position to prove or disprove their claims. All I can do is mention what I have before, which is that their specifications are a bit muddled on their web pages. The opening page brags of the "ability to fire and burn" 250 grains of pellets, yet their specs say 200 grains is the "maximum."

There are some obvious benefits to the Savage, IMO-- and I am the master of the obvious. The Savage has a dramatically lower cost per shot, no spit-patching required, and sells for about $900 dollars less.

There are several extremely competent muzzleloaders on the market, not just the Savage. The loads that I enjoy shooting out of the Savage may run counter to what some seek-- but, I hardly care about muzzle velocity and energy alone. It is accuracy and terminal performance, and the Savage loads that group sub-MOA for me are 2100 fps area loads, no record setter. Many muzzleloaders can get past 2350 fps or so with 220 grain sabots.

But, though I'm shooting in the same velocity envelope with the Savage as with other muzzleloaders, I'm doing it with mild recoil, and an 80 grain heavier bullet. That extra mass, all things being equal, nets a much higher BC, flatter trajectory, and very generous terminal energy.

It looks kinda sorta like this:

Name: .45 Cal, DC, 300 grn
Ballistic Coeff: 0.336
Bullet Weight: 300
Velocity: 2090
Target Distance: 200

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect
0 yds -1.50 in 2090 fps 2909 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -1.50 in 0.00 in
25 yds 0.76 in 2034 fps 2756 fpe 0.036 sec 0.25 in -0.54 in 0.05 in
50 yds 2.49 in 1979 fps 2609 fpe 0.074 sec 1.03 in -0.34 in 0.33 in
75 yds 3.69 in 1925 fps 2467 fpe 0.111 sec 2.33 in 0.00 in 0.65 in
100 yds 4.31 in 1871 fps 2333 fpe 0.151 sec 4.23 in 0.50 in 1.26 in
125 yds 4.28 in 1819 fps 2205 fpe 0.191 sec 6.76 in 1.18 in 2.12 in
150 yds 3.57 in 1769 fps 2084 fpe 0.234 sec 9.97 in 2.05 in 3.23 in
175 yds 2.16 in 1719 fps 1968 fpe 0.277 sec 13.90 in 3.13 in 4.56 in
200 yds 0.00 in 1671 fps 1859 fpe 0.322 sec 18.57 in 4.43 in 6.09 in
225 yds -2.92 in 1623 fps 1754 fpe 0.367 sec 24.00 in 5.96 in 7.83 in
250 yds -6.64 in 1576 fps 1655 fpe 0.414 sec 30.22 in 7.74 in 9.75 in

In what way, and on what game animal, is this load deemed unsatisfactory?

DEPUTY · « **Reply #8 on:** February 11, 2004, 04:21:46 PM »

TRUE RANDY DEAD IS DEAD AND MY USE OF THE SAVAGE IS LIMITED! OOPS DAMM CAPS! Sorry it is in a fact we all have are cheerleaders, i have no trouble using my encore or omega or even my knight still and it indeed kills game every year for me as well, i guess ill back off the savage vs ultimate debate for a while jsut stirring it up a bit i like a good discussion every so often have fun at the shot show

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #9 on:** February 12, 2004, 05:40:10 AM »

Quote from: DEPUTY

TRUE RANDY DEAD IS DEAD AND MY USE OF THE SAVAGE IS LIMITED! OOPS DAMM CAPS! Sorry it is in a fact we all have are cheerleaders, i have no trouble using my encore or omega or even my knight still and it indeed kills game every year for me as well

Most so-called debates are not fact-based, but emotion based. There are many good choices, and it boils down to personal preferences. Most "debates" would be over with before they started, if the comment was simply "it fits me better, I shoot better with it, and it is a gun I have great confidence in."

The story then ends before it even starts.

woodseye · « **Reply #10 on:** February 12, 2004, 11:26:47 AM »

Quote

woodeye ill put it up against any bp gun on the market! the savage is only getting so much talk beacuse of it cost and smokless powder yes its a great gun but it isnt even in the same league as the ultimate and the velcoities are much better than the savage, the recoil isnt that bad with a 250 charge also maybe checking with kenny darwin the outdoor writer about his ultimate all iam asking for is a good honest test thats all the ulitmate is the safest and strongest and most powerfull on the market today

Sorry Deputy but its not hotter than the Savage, until proven and according to anyone but the maker. Recoil will be intense to push a 250 or 300 grain bullet to the velocity they claim. Why don't you post of anyone thats really shooting and chronographing true velocities for this gun with these heavy charges of Pyrodex? Or you get one and let us know what its capable of and what its not. You are right however.........the Savage is not in the same league.........its capable of shooting smokeless powder,retails for $500 or less and is not relying on a lot of hype and unproven claims. You stirred the pot but failed to supply any facts or experience with this gun to substantiate what you and they are claiming. Wheres The Facts?

woods

DEPUTY · « **Reply #11 on:** February 12, 2004, 01:16:46 PM »

well woodseye i have one! and it has been shown on the outdoor channel on a hunting show, and i belive randy was even set a tape of it! yes it can do as claimed. the recoil isnt as bad as what you think it is less than the 12 gauge slug if you ask me but im not recoil shy, your right it is a beeter built gun than the savage and so what smokeless yippee i dont need it to get those numbers th guns tract record is being proven every year, including a new world record bison. the offers have been made to randy and toby to shoot the gun i will shoot video of it and its numbers but i belive randy gave randy or sent him a video of it .and for toby to make the claims it can not be done with out ever shooting it well there yah go no facts from him either ill just let the gun do the talking i have seen the numbers first hand. i offered the numbers before from other loads on another post about it so i cant tell you guys anymore than to say randy or toby shoot the gun

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #12 on:** February 12, 2004, 02:51:27 PM »

My FFL is Libertas Arms in Plainfield, IL. I'll get them an ink-signed FFL, Howa's about that.

big6x6 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 12, 2004, 04:02:25 PM »

The gauntlet has been taken off!

DEPUTY · « **Reply #14 on:** February 12, 2004, 05:06:40 PM »

Sweet, I Will ask you to get in touch with randy again from the company to arrange it. i WILL SET THE RECORED STRAIGHT HERE! i have a ton of respect for the knowledge and info from randy wakeman and he himself as a person, thanks again randy shoot me an eamil or pm if you ultimates number again! thanks

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #15 on:** February 12, 2004, 05:41:17 PM »

Quote from: DEPUTY

yes it can do as claimed.

The question is what really is claimed? There are no ballistics at http://www.ultimatefirearms.com/index.html to speak of. That is the reason for at least some of the confusion. Paul Rambo was supposed to get that updated / refined, but looks like it was sent to the back burner.

Anyway-- the record can be set straight, what it does is what it does . . . I'll have some cameras on it to show it, one way or another. As least, it will be representative.

woodseye · « **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2004, 12:20:27 AM »

Still no chrono numbers Deputy...........send it to Randy he will wring it out and tell the world the truth about what it can and can't do. I remain unconvinced it will do 2900fps with any load and agree with Toby on this one..

woods

DEPUTY · « **Reply #17 on:** February 15, 2004, 03:02:51 PM »

Sorry woods me and randy talked you will see it and what he gets out of it in the near future until then iam done

woodseye · « **Reply #18 on:** February 16, 2004, 01:33:15 AM »

Nothing to be sorry about Deputy, I just want to see some numbers to support your claims about it. I'd be very interested in what bullet they have found that holds up to the high pressure/velocities claimed and don't fail at the same point they do in Savages. Lead can only handle so much and sabots are prone to blow-by at some point so bullet technology seems to be the restricting factor right now. Its not a question of whether the gun can produce more but whether the bullets can take the added velocity and breech pressure. I also question whether simply dumping more and more BP or pyro/triple7 in will keep giving more velocity with a given length barrel. Seems the increase will be less and less as more and more unburned propellant blows out the end of the barrel. Recoil is a given.......most guys draw the line at 150grs and 300gr bullets so, if 200-250 grains of propellant are used the recoil will become more than the average shooter wants to accurately handle unless the gun is extremely heavy, which would be a real drawback if used as a carry around hunting rifle. i'll wait to hear what Randy has to say about its performance levels and recoil.

woods

1SHOT-1KILL · « **Reply #19 on:** February 16, 2004, 03:50:34 AM »

I, too, am a bit skeptical. The velocities are not that impressive, as the Savage has pumped 180gr bullets out the muzzle at 3,400+ FPS and 220gr at 3,000+ FPS, so the ultimate rifle claims are not that impressive. Now if the ultimate rifle wants to compare velocity, Savage wins, hands down. The only negative about the Savage is that once velocities get above 2,900+ FPS accuracy gets very erratic, as the stress on the sabots tends to be too much. And this is with ANY sabot on the market, I've shot them all.

As far as the ultimate rifle being able to shot 250gr of Pyrodex or T7, no big deal. I have shot the Savage with up to 270gr of Pyrodex "P" and 250gr XTP's. Accuracy was not all that great with those heavy charges, but up to about 170gr of Pyrodex "P" and 250gr XTPS gave decent accuracy.

From what I can see from the ultimate rifle's website, the whole "secret" to their velocities, is that use Walther Lothar barrels. These barrels have no rifling like a conventional barrel does with lands and grooves. Instead they have an polygon or octagon bore, th8us no lands to help destroy a sabot. But still a sabot, ANY sabot can only stand so much pressure.

I also noticed ultimate rifle had a couple of features on their patent, that were awful close to the orginal design of patents designed by my father and myself, and the Savage 10ML. I wonder were they got thier idea??? I noticed that they use a Howa action. That's kind of ironic, as we sent Pat Wheeler of Legacy Sports Interantional (Howa) a demo model about 3 years ago, of our design built on a Howa action. Shortly afterwards ultimate rifle appears using the same Howa action. Hhhhuummm, kinda makes me wonder a little.

DEPUTY · « **Reply #20 on:** February 16, 2004, 06:49:48 AM »

funny the first ultimate i touched in 1990 had a howa and a ruger action, well i tell you what get your lawyer and go to work iam done if all ypu guys will do is bash me enjoy your savages ill enjoy mine have a nice life, the ultimate does it without smokeless but i have handles the ultimate long before i ever seen the savage on the market so take it up with them. i will let randy deal with anything else if they send him a gun or not or if he gets mine sent to him enjoy

woodseye · « **Reply #21 on:** February 16, 2004, 07:32:14 AM »

Hmmmmmm........interesting reply there Deputy.

Quote

well i tell you what get your lawyer and go to work iam done if all ypu guys will do is bash me enjoy your savages ill enjoy mine have a nice life,

I asked for facts to support your statement that the Savage was not in the same league as the Ultimate and was capable of higher velocities. Simple facts would address this and since when is asking for facts to back up statements bashing? If you can't supply chrono info and straightforward answers in this discussion, I wait for Randy or someone to supply these. I never believe what some company add copy or salesman says as they only want to sell rifles.

Quote

will Toby ever actually shoot and review the ultimate rifle? (I dont think he will) so he really cant claim knowledge of the gun without doing that

With this statement you have excused yourself from claiming any knowledge of the Savage since you don't own one, right?

Quote

the savage is only getting so much talk beacuse of it cost and smokless powder yes its a great gun but it isnt even in the same league as the ultimate and the velcoities are much better than the savage

And when I ask for proof or some chrono numbers you accuse me of bashing. Lets see some hard numbers of its superiority.

Quote

i guess ill back off the savage vs ultimate debate for a while jsut stirring it up a bit i like a good discussion every so often

Hard to have a good discussion when you have nothing factual to discuss Deputy. The facts brought out so far about the ultimate have been from everybody but you the owner of one.

Quote

i offered the numbers before from other loads on another post about it so i cant tell you guys anymore than to say randy or toby shoot the gun

Care to bring them up so we can see what you are getting from yours? What loads and bullets are you using also.

Quote

the ulitmate is the safest and strongest and most powerfull on the market today

Ultimate claims to be tested to 125,000psi Savage claims tested to 129,000psi..........you do the math on the strength statement. The Savage is proofed to about three times the pressure it develops in its heaviest loads. Most powerful........again wheres them facts?

You started a discussion you seem to have no desire to take part in, and no facts to back up what you say. When your asked for facts you say your being bashed and keep saying your done talking about it. Yet your back every couple posts like a moth to a flame. Exactly what was the purpose of your post other than to troll up some Savage shooters and bash Toby?

woods

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #22 on:** February 16, 2004, 08:08:57 AM »

Woodseye,

Your debating skills are still sharp, I see. I'm interested in what it does really do. All you can do is live with a gun for a while, and report what it really does. Fair 'nuff?

woodseye · « **Reply #23 on:** February 16, 2004, 08:54:10 AM »

More than fair Randy............I'm just asking for a factual report of what it really does, seems no owners are capable of providing that at this point.

woods

DEPUTY · « **Reply #24 on:** February 16, 2004, 05:06:22 PM »

Woodseye, i dont own a savage and dont have a ton of use behind one either! as i told randy the other night on the phone, I'am not a guru of numbers and such! I have only had the gun chronoed once before i bought it! i saw a lot of numbers of over the years and i have said i will wait till randy gets to shoot it! yeap the howa is strong stronger than the savage not sure, i also know bunch were built on ruger actions as well! as to the get a lawyer well one makes claims of pat trouble take it up with the company not me all i know is i shot and handled one of theses guns before the savage hit the market so until randy gets a chance to test it iam done enjoy! and there was no toby bashing! savage, knight, t/c whomever just shoot it and enjoy it!

1SHOT-1KILL · « **Reply #25 on:** February 17, 2004, 06:08:27 AM »

Hey Deputy, don't get too torqued high and to the right! I stated that the designs were awful close that's all, not exact. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades! The UR use what looks like some kind of a straight walled brass pistol case as the carrier for the large rifle primer. The 10ML uses a tapered nosed steel percussion module to carry the 209 shotgun primer. The UR must use a breech plug with a center "nipple" that fits inside the brass casing with an outer wall for sealing. The 10ML uses a true chamber and uses the mating of the taper on the nose of the percussion module and the interior taper of the chamber to create the seal. Both use a duel forward locking lug on the bolt for locking of the action. This provides an extremely strong lock up. UR uses Howa actions and I have built many custom built centerfire rifles and smokeless muzzleloaders on Howa actions as well.

In looking at the UR breech plug design further, it most resembles the discontinued Knight Disc Elite. As far as the lawyers go, I have no need for one, as it appears I don't have a dog in this fight. It appears if there is a fight it may be between UR and Knight. On the UR website it states "since 2001" that they have been in the muzzleloading business. if they have been in the muzzleloading business since 1990, so be it.

As far as whether the UR is as good as or better than the Savage 10ML-II or vise versa, it remains to be seen and is open to debate. If the performance claimed on the UR website is true, it is in the same league as the Savage. But, I have not seen those velocities published anywhere expect the UR website. You have not listed any loads, velocities, or energies. That is why I am skeptical. Not calling anyone anything, not even trying to imply it, so please don't take it that way, but until I see the info I am not sold on it. On the other hand I have thousands of loads combinations chronographed in the Savage's and my custom builts. And Toby Bridges has at least 5x as many as I have. No, not to my knowledge has Toby shot the UR. Yes, he was offered to shot the UR about a year or so ago, but he had to travel to them and it was just to shoot some rounds across the chorongraph. He would not be able to experiment with his own loads. That came straight from Toby. Maybe if they send him one for a while and let him really ring it out, then he may or may not change his opinion on the UR.

UR also states that they have tested their muzzleloader to over 125,000 PSI. By who, how, and where? Savage tested the 10ML and the 10ML-II in their R&D indoor range, using computerized electonic strain gaging equipment. Toby Bridges was there when they loaded a triple charge, three charges of 30 grians each for a total of 90 grains, of Alliant Red Dot powder, then rammed three saboted 300gr Hornady .452 XTP home on top of that triple charge. Pressures spiked at over 156, 000 PSI, yet the 10ML sustained only a bent recoil lug and a .008" bulge in the barrel. Savage removed that barrel and recoil lug, installed a new recoil lug and barrel and that particular 10ML is still shooting today. The 10ML-II was tested simularly, and pressures reached 126, 000 PSI, but the primer blew allowing the gases to blow by and reduce the pressure. I am sure in my mind that the URm using the same lock up system (bolt with locking lugs) could easily withstand 125,000 PSI, but some testing confirmation would be reassuring.

DEPUTY · « **Reply #26 on:** February 17, 2004, 07:45:16 AM »

All is well! like i said i dont work for them so i dont have all the answers! if things go well and randy gets a gun from them i cant wait to see what comes up if not iam willing to send randy my gun for a short term loan of testing!

1SHOT-1KILL · « **Reply #27 on:** February 17, 2004, 09:38:06 AM »

Deputy, I forgot to mention that those pictures of the UR muzzleloaders on UR website are absolutely beautiful! Hate to admit it but they are probably the best looking muzzleloader I have ever seen.............besides my custom builts!!!!!!!!! LOL :wink:

DEPUTY · « **Reply #28 on:** February 17, 2004, 01:42:07 PM »

yes that they are, they have a new non-thumbhole stock that is sharp! iam going to shoot a savage ml-II tomorrow tracked a one down today through a friend belive me iam not aposed to gettting one hell i might even get one if i like enough tomorrow

DEPUTY · « **Reply #29 on:** February 17, 2004, 09:15:12 PM »

ok ran some rounds today 300 sst 4 t7 pellets 2350was my average