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Author Topic: Reduced loads for .223  (Read 1303 times)

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Offline Sourdough

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Reduced loads for .223
« on: November 07, 2012, 03:52:45 PM »
I am looking for the minimum load I can find for an 80gr bullet for the .223.  Looking for about 1900fps.  Looking to mat6ch a .22 Mag ballistics.  Hoping to find a load that will operate the action on an AR or a Mini-14.
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2012, 04:01:58 PM »
Sourdough,  I'll have to wait 'till tomorrow to check my load books out in the shed, but I have some data on gas checked lead we ran at 2000 fps.  These weighed in about 75 gr. with gas check.
 
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2012, 04:04:13 PM »
Thanks Mechanic, I was looking for a Trail Boss load but 22-250 is the lowest cartridge they list.
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Offline YRUpunting?

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2012, 04:20:22 PM »
Check out H4895.  You should be able to get a lot lower than 1900fps if you want.
Dan



http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2012, 04:38:36 PM »
Sourdough, I'm publishing Dad's loads as he had them in his load book.  I have not shot these, so use these with caution...
 
75gr, cast, gas check.  CCI sr primer.  Rem. case.  7.5gr. Unique = 1859fps. avg.
75gr, cast, gas check.  CCI sr primer.  Rem. case.  7 gr. Green Dot = 1659fps. avg.
 
55 gr. sp. jacketed.  CCI sr. primer.  Rem case.  3 gr. Bullseye, = 1200 fps.
 
I am assuming he shot these from a Contender.  His only other 223 was an AR, and these would not have cycled IMO.
 
He was always wondering "what if" I can't get this or that...powder...
 
Ben
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2012, 08:46:47 AM »
Thanks for the info guys. 
 
I have seen where people are using 4, 6, and 10gr of Trail Boss with a 55gr bullet.  Think I will use that as a starting point.  I want the slowest bullet I can get and still work the action on my Mini-14.  Time for experimenting.  At least all I have to do to test a load is open the back garage door, and shoot into the bank behind the house.
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Offline JeffG

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2012, 09:10:01 AM »
+1 on lead gas check bullets for low loads. Have fun!
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2012, 09:29:03 AM »
My newest CAST BULLET manuel only lists up to a 60G..



CW
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2012, 12:07:46 PM »
My late model Mini 14 has a 1 - 9" twist. I am not sure a 80 grain bullet will stabilize my Mini 14 at any velocity. I would think lower velocity would only aggravate the situation. I have successfully shot Hornady 75 grain BTHP bullets at full velocity. I think you are on the right track, the Mini 14 operates off of gas pressure. If you shoot a heavy bullet, it should develop more pressure at the same velocity as a lighter bullet. As far as loads for our Mini 14's, I have not tried any. I have loaded Blue Dot for reduced loads in a 223 Handi and bolt gun. Of course, I did not have to worry about cycling the action.

Good Luck and Good Shooting
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Offline bilmac

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2012, 12:41:48 PM »
Twelve gr blue dot behind a 50 gr Rem PSP gave me 1/2" 100 yd groups in my bolt gun. A nice plus is that it shot within 1" of my full power loads at that range.
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Offline LanceR

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2012, 01:30:10 AM »
As has been said, I doubt a reduced load such as you've described will cycle a Mini-14 or AR bolt.  Both were specifically designed for 5.56 NATO ball ammo which is a lot hotter than .223 Remington (60,000+ PSI).  They can get flaky with light loads.

Also, I agree with the comment about stabilizing an 80 grain bullet out of a Mini-14.  A very fast twist AR might have a better chance but only shooting will tell.  It will be interesting to see how it works out. 

On Hodgdon's home page is a tab for "DATA", then hit "H4895 Reduced Rife Loads". 

With H4895 you can use as little as 60% of the max load for any listed bullet/cartridge combination.  Although I've never used H4895 for a very heavy for caliber bulled reduced load my experience has been that the velocity change is pretty linear with the powder reduction.

If that were the case here, one listed combination would look like this:

Max charge:  80 grain Sierra MatchKing, 24 grains H4895, 2825 FPS (barrel length not specified)

60% charge:  80 grain Sierra MatchKing, 14.4 grains H4895, 1695 FPS(?)



They also list a 4 grain Trailboss load with a 55 grain Hornady FMJ at 1074 FPS but with no pressure data or whether it is a starting, mid or max load.  I suspect it is a pretty light load though.


I think peak pressure, timing (at the gas port) and duration are going to be the key to cycling.  Hodgdon has a lot more data than what is on the site.  I think a call to them would be time well spent.

Lance
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Offline bilmac

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2012, 05:13:47 AM »
Back in the day when I really didn't have the dough for jacketed bullets I made lots of reduced loads with cast bullets. Now when $ is not such a problem I am going to jacketed bullets for reduced loads because I worry about the cast bullet leaving a deposit in the bore that will affect the zero of the first full power loads fired after them. Also I remember years ago guys badmouthing cast bullets for Garands because they thought they fouled the gas system. I don't know if it was a real or imagined problem.
 
Blue Dot powder has been a real eye opener to me for reduced loads. There was a guy that had a website that was doing a lot of experimenting. I can't find the site anymore. Seems like just about any load I tried worked about as good as my best loads with other powders, and if I tinkered, I could get outstanding loads, like the 5 shot 100 yard group mentioned above.
 
I've had a couple of minis, not anymore, but both guns seemed to like mild loads. I didn't try any real reduced loads, but I wonder if the mini might really like them. I would think that a load that didn't cycle the action enough to cause jams would be in effect a straight pull repeater. Not really a bad setup. .
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2012, 09:06:41 AM »
blimac:  I think that is what I am going to do, have a straight pull repeater.  I have to get down to 1900fps, not sure that will cycle the action.

My problem:  We are going to the North Slope to shoot Arctic Fox.  Arctic Fox are about half the size of Red Foxes.  Winter has set in up there and the Foxes are out scrounging for anything they can eat.  They come to the call three, four, five, even as many as six at a time.  At $50.00 to $60.00 a pelt we want as many as we can get.  A standard .223 will blow them apart.  A .22 mag is the right velocity, but no one makes a semi auto .22 mag that I can find.  A .22 mag bolt is slow, we are looking for a semi auto.  Hence, the try to slow down my mini-14 loads.   Next year I think I will look for a semi auto .17 Hornet.  .17 HMR and .22LR are just not enough gun.  I'm taking my old Nylon 66 but just for emergencies.

A plus to using the mini-14, if we see Wolves coming in we can change our magazines and load standard loads for the Wolves.  Other wise I have to carry two guns.

Hunting on the North Slope is like hunting in Kanasas, only everything is white.  Constant wind, blowing snow, and avalances at Addigun Pass.  Was talking to a trucker yesterday, he had just came from the slope.  17 avalances from Coldfoot to the North side of Attagun Pass.
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A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline Ranger99

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2012, 02:25:42 PM »
i thought for sure i had seen
a 10/22 .22 mag at one time :-\
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Offline FPH

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2012, 02:37:32 PM »
Quote from: Ranger99 on November 09, 2012, 02:25:42 PM
i thought for sure i had seen
a 10/22 .22 mag at one time :-\

Once upon a time, you did.
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Offline FPH

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2012, 02:43:28 PM »
Magnum Research makes one.
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Offline hillbill

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2012, 03:03:32 PM »
could yu not and trust me ive never shot a artic fox, just shoot them thru the shoulders with a solid 223 bullet?
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2012, 06:56:48 PM »
Ruger did make a .22 mag at one time, now they are very scarce.  Remington did also.  The Magnum Research is very expensive and hard to find as well.

hillbill: Hitting bone with a solid, blows a big hole on the other side.  If you don't hit bone they run off and die.  Finding them once they run off is very difficult in the snow.  The arctic fox is a small and very delicate creature.  Don't take much to blow it apart.
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Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
What Is A Veteran?
A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline Flynmoose

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2012, 07:27:15 PM »
Lever guns cycle pretty fast, how about a Henry 22 Mag levergun?
FM
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Offline tacklebury

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Re: Reduced loads for .223
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2012, 10:10:04 PM »
1900 is no problem and if it won't cycle the action, they make lighter recoil springs for the AR platform which will handle it.  My current load with Reloader7 is closer to 3k, so I'd think my practice with Unique is much closer.  I got good accuracy with 5 gr. Unique and it's actually pretty consistent.  My .22 LR version is 4.2 gr. Unique and has an average velocity of 1050 fps with an SD of only 13 fps on a 5 shot string.  5 gr. Unique and a 40 gr. bullet was doing about 1500 fps and had pretty good SD.  I am thinking that you can probably use closer to 6 or 7 gr. unique and get to your speed you want.  As you drop speed though, even with a 1:9 twist, you'll start losing stability in the longer bullets.  If it were me I'd probably try some 55 gr. ballistic tips as I have had very good consistent groups with them.  Here's the load data I started from and it might give you some ideas.  ;)
 
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast%20in%20the%20.223.pdf
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast%20in%20the%20.223,%20Part%20II.pdf
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast%20in%20the%20.223,%20Part%20III.pdf
 
The RP spring kit at Wolff has various weights of lighter springs for a reasonable cost also.  You can get by with buying an extra standard one and cutting off a coil at a time until it hits the right velocity.  ;)  Just make sure you don't accidentally leave the low power spring in the gun when shooting regular loads, because you could cause damage.
 
http://www.gunsprings.com/index.cfm?page=items&cID=2&mID=1&dID=79
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