Author Topic: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY  (Read 2575 times)

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Offline watkibe

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off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« on: November 11, 2012, 03:17:01 PM »
I have searched the FAQs and the posts by every search term I can think of and I'm just not smart enough to get the info that's probably already on the board somewhere. Hopefully someone has the answer on the tip of their tongue and can help me out, please.
I am getting misfires only with my 35 Rem barrel. The firing pin strike is so far off center you could look at it and say "yeah, that's at about 11 o'clock". Sometimes if I just re-cock and fire, the round fires. Sometimes I rotate the round 90 degrees in the chamber and it fires. Sometimes it doesn't matter what I do, it won't fire.
I broke down all the complete failures-to-fire, and the powder weight and appearance was good, the primer was not smoky colored, so it just didn't fire. The 35 Rem has a very small shoulder, and I was thinking I could be setting the shoulder back when I re-size the cases. I decided to try neck sizing only.
 And then it hit me: The cases that did not fire at all were super squeaky clean gold in color; they were NEW cases ! I didn't set the shoulder back on those for sure. Before this I had the rare misfire with WW cases, but the last batch that all misfired were all new cases from Remington.
1. Could it be the off center firing pin, and where can I find out how to fix it ?
2. Since it's only happening with this barrel, maybe the lock-up is somehow making the off center pin problem worse.
3. Could the new Rem cases be at fault? I could get a cartridge head space gauge I guess, but I don't want to spring for one unless it's very likely to point out the problem.
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Offline mechanic

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Re: misfires from off center firing pin strike
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2012, 04:44:16 PM »
Does not sound like the firing pin.  First take a sliver of tin foil, and place it between the opened barrel and receiver face.  See if it closes, and how loose it is.  It you are sure the barrel is fitted correctly, it sounds like a nonstandard chamber cut.  Rounds that have already fire formed may fire better?
 
I have had several diff. rifles with off center pin, but no FTF.
 
Ben
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: misfires from off center firing pin strike
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2012, 06:05:25 PM »
Off center pin strikes have been discussed more than once, a Wolff extra power hammer spring, increase firing pin travel and a change in primers have all worked. Reworking the pivot position works too, but that's not an option for most members.

Tim

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Offline bilmac

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Re: misfires from off center firing pin strike
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2012, 06:27:16 PM »
I had the same problem with a 243. What I found was that the barrel was closing too far. I put a shim in the hinge and then adjusted the latch. It shoots fine now.

Offline gcrank1

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Re: misfires from off center firing pin strike
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2012, 05:25:39 AM »
It is not all that unusual to have a f-pin strike a bit off center. Not a problem if it isnt out there too far; ie, too close to the outer 1/3 of the primer diameter, for instance. A pic would help determine yours, but the analysis you made about the brass is worth more investigation before anything else.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: misfires from off center firing pin strike
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2012, 12:22:52 PM »
When I swtched my orig 357 Maxi from its 158 receiver to a SB2, I had issue with off center primer strikes...  I re cut the pivot and re faced the breech then releived the bottom of the barrel so it would sit down further... I cut .025 off the shelf and epoxied a new piece of spring steel to it. It locks up great, but It only moved the pin a bit... (This is a video, if you click on it)



I always swap in a Wolfe spring, simply because far to many problems are associated with these springs...

Here is two strikes from my two maxis, One was on a SB1 frame with a shotgun pin...

After all my work...

No problems with FTF... You can see the difference in depth, slightly in position...

CW
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Offline jeepmann1948

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Re: misfires from off center firing pin strike
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2012, 01:12:14 PM »
One thing I have noticed about Handi Barrels , Not all of them are chambered in the center of the barrel. :o When I re-chamber or stub a barrel I use a 4 jaw chuck so it cuts a true center. Even then the primer strikes are not always in the center but so far they all had been in the "sweet spot" of the primer with no FTF's.This tells me that the receivers are not all drilled for the firing pin in the same place either.If they go bang and shoot straight an off center strike is not important.
You can check the headspace with a case that had the FTF and some Scotch Tape.The old rule of thumb was if the round would chamber with 2 thicknesses of tape on the case head it had too much headspace.1 thickness was Ok for a hunting rifle but for a match case it should be a tight fit with 1. Try a FTF case and a fired case and compare.
 With the stories floating around the net about Remington's quality control the ammo could be the culprit.
Good luck
George
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  it's where you hit em "

Offline watkibe

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Off-center firing pin strike...Here's what I'm talkin' about ! Got pics now !
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2012, 06:05:29 PM »
I finally took pictures of the primers of all 4 of my handi rifle cartridges, I hope I posted them right !
Anyway, all the FP strikes are off-center, but the 35 Rem is by far the worst, and it is the one that misfires all the time now. The other 3 have never misfired. I have by now had misfires in both kinds of brass, R-P and W-W in the 35 Rem barrel.
The only unique feature is the 35 Rem barrel, it must be the fault. The strikes are all high, so I guess the barrel is locking up too low. I have ordered a Wolff hammer spring just in case,(maybe a really hard off center strike will work, haha) and will experiment with shimming the pivot .
Thanks for the replies, PMs, and suggestions. When I figure out the solution/resolution I will post it.

Offline geezerbiker

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2012, 11:16:10 PM »
One of my bolt guns has the primer strikes about that far off and it shoots great.  I don't think the problem is with where it's hitting but more likely it's not hitting hard enough.

Tony

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2012, 11:26:39 PM »
Of your pics, the only one that worries me is the 357 Mag.

IMHO, the others are not at all worry some. They fall within the anvil and dont see them causing issue.  Annoying and not normal, yes.

TRy resizing the 35 rem while CAREFULLY NOT moving its shoulder. Back the sizer die out and slowly screw it back in tiny bits at a time. I like to smoke the case and slowly resize and remove watching the soot be removed and stop when the soot is gone at the neck shoulder juncture. THEN prime and test fire.
What your doing is making sure that your shoulder is firmly on the shoulder of your chamber. Allowing for optimal support for the FP strike.

See what that does if you get reliable multiple fires... do a couple cases and head back to the range.

Good luck,
 CW
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Offline bucmeister

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2012, 02:51:32 AM »
If I recall correctly what I read years ago a simple way to adjust a sizing die to not set the shoulder back is to use a nickel to set the gap between the top of the shell holder and the bottom of the die.  If that does not get enough of the neck sized to hold your bullet then try a penny or even a dime, just don't bottom the shell holder out against the die base.

CW, I agree with you about the 357 MAX being the one most off center, maybe the reason it fires correctly has to do with the rim.  Which if true is all the more reason to consider reaming that 35 Rem to a 356 Winchester!!!  Or if one wants to stay closer to the 35 Rem performance wise I guess another option would be the 35-40 Krag chamber which I believe is said to be essentially a rimmed equivalent of the 35 Rem.

All of this said, I still think it speaks poorly of the manufacturer's attention to quality control.  Find myself wondering if the Thompson Center line of  single shot break action rifles has the same problem.  Frankly, given that their mechanism and quality control is so standardized and consistent that individual barrels do not have to be custom fitted it seems unlikely that they would have this off center firing pin issue.   

Offline gcrank1

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2012, 03:49:08 AM »
Those strikes are kinda light, hope the new spring takes care of it. The new style single leg spring isnt much of a piece.
There are several here who have, or have had the TC's and, for some strange reason, have not abandoned the H&R platform. For me, they are too expensive and (I can say this here without fear of stoning) ugly. Not that the H&R's are beautiful, just more 'traditional' looking, I guess.
You really need to try those resizing suggestions to ensure the cartridge is well back by the shoulder position. It is no big deal, especially if you only have one rifle to fit in that chambering.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2012, 04:00:16 AM »
That's a good point about the main spring.

Looks to me like the primers are beginning to flatten and this makes the indentation spear less. A Wolffe extra power spring will go a long way to help the poor quality known problematic factory unit.

CW
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Offline watkibe

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2012, 08:27:04 AM »
CW - I have had FTF with NEW cases, so I didn't set the shoulder back on those. I have smoked a case and now have neck sized cases; they have misfired too.
 
Gcrank - Wolff has a single coil and a double coil hammer spring. I checked the parts drawing and it shows a double coil spring, so that's what I have ordered.
 
I used feeler gauges between the barrel and the standing breech. They were metric, so if my math was right, the action would close on 0.004 to 0.007 feelers.
 
I never noticed before, but all my barrels lock up with the top outside diameter about 1/8" below the top of the receiver. Since it's all of them, maybe it's normal ?
Thanks for the continued replies, ideas, and suggestions.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2012, 08:33:59 AM »
Per the FAQs on Wolff springs, the single coil is the correct spring for modern H&Rs, the double spring won't work with a transfer bar, it's made for vintage pre-transfer bar(<197?) H&R Inc firearms. If the chamber is cut too deep, the same problem would occur, and that's not to say that Remington hasn't made brass that was improperly sized out of the bag, had the same problem with their Whelen brass, it had to be fireformed before I could use it, see Handloading for an Improved Chamber Handi in the FAQs to deal with new brass like that.

Tim
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2012, 08:38:53 AM »
New brass/factory FTF in no way negates the possibility of these problems. We all know new dosent mean right or correct. ;)

What I drained to mention was you must start with brass that was fired in your gun! 

Finding head space of some chambers starts at the loading bench!  You need something to work off. So some kind of shoulder or a rim OR you create it. THEN you seat a bullet INTO the rifling so it cannot move. You first need to charge with a moderate load just enough to push the bullet out and reform the brass and not pressure spike because the bullet has zero jump.

I did this when I started having problems with a 357 Herrett and making 7TC/U brass in a Contender.

SO back to your issue, its quite possible your chamber is a tad deep. If you where to load up bullets as I said it would force the base against the breech and hold it there until firing. Resulting in a perfectly formed case for your chamber!

AGAIN THIS CAN BE DANGEROUS AND POWDER TYPESAND CHARGES ARE CRITICAL!

CW
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Offline Spanky

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2012, 12:46:24 PM »
Rechamber it to something with a rim. ;)
 
 
 
Spanky

Offline gcrank1

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2012, 03:32:55 PM »
Hope you were able to intercept that order before shipment to get the right one (for the shipping get several). If not, there will probably be 'someone' here who can use a dbl.leg  ;) .
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Offline Brian P.

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2012, 06:47:31 PM »
Did someone mention this possibility yet? On mine, the hammer spur extension (or hammer spur bur, as I call it  ;D  ) slid down too far on the hammer and would SOMETIMES hit or nick the break action button when firing.  It didn't always happen and it took me days to figure out inconsistant primer strikes that seemed to be the issue with mine.
Lead me not into temptation but point me to it instead.

Offline nanuk-O-dah-Nort

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2012, 07:01:06 PM »
has anyone ever tried to bush the firing pin to relocate it?

I have some older gunsmithing books and it doesn't appear to be that difficult a job.

a lathe would certainly be a big help doing it though

Offline gcrank1

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2012, 03:37:45 AM »
IRC from the last time I had one apart and considered that, there isnt a lot of meat there in the frame for the bushing, though a careful workman could probably make due with careful locating and fine threads. A different barrel, once in lockup, may actually imprint to a different spot also.
IMHO, all other expedients should be tried first unless a guy is just so bored and/or intrigued by the thought that he just cant stand it. Of course there is nobody here like that........ :P .
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Offline watkibe

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2012, 03:41:09 PM »
Thanks for the heads-up Tim, on the proper Wolff spring. I have to fix that !
 
I don't know if you can rent GO/NOGO gauges, but that would be the definitive answer about the chamber being cut correctly; likewise, a Wilson cartridge headspace gauge would do the same for the brass. I have one of their gauges in 243, and it's a pleasure to use.
 
I was looking at it like the firing pin was in the wrong place, but in truth, the barrel is fit to the frame, so the barrel is in the wrong place. Since the primer strikes are high, my theory is that the barrel is low, or "closing too much". Just for a proof-of-theory experiment, I put 0.012" shims in the bottom of the frame. The barrel wouldn't close on 3, but it did on 2. I fired 3 rounds from the batch that has always misfired, and they all fired properly, the first time ! Seems like my theory is correct. Obviously this isn't a permanent solution. I am thinking that putting part of a 0.024" feeler gauge on the bottom of the "extractor housing" with epoxy would confine the fix to the barrel and not change the frame at all. I should probably use some lipstick on the shims to see just where it is hitting.
 
Does anybody think this is a bad idea ? If so, do me a favor and tell me why please !
 
@CW and Tim: thanks for the bit on fireforming new brass. I tried to seat a bullet out far enough to hit the rifling to ensure a solid FP hit, but I haven't been able to yet because  the neck is too short (or leade too long)and the bullet falls out. I used a Sierra 200 gr round nose. Maybe I will look at some other bullets. Often the round will fire on a second strike, so I am getting fire-formed cases.
thanks, and let me know if you think I have a dumb or dangerous idea, OK ?

Offline watkibe

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2012, 03:51:14 PM »
Today I superglued 2 0.012" shims to each other, and then both of them to the bottom of the extractor housing. 3 more rounds from the batch that has always misfired before, went off on the first strike.
I don't think superglue is the permanent solution. I am pretty sure I can get the shims off if I want to. I will buy some feeler gauges tomorrow, and use the 0.024 steel gauge. Cutting it to shape and mounting it with epoxy, I think, will be a more permanent fix.
 
I still would like to hear from anybody who thinks this is a bad idea, so don't be shy about answering please !

Offline gcrank1

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2012, 04:38:49 AM »
Good diagnosis, and approach! I think that it makes sense as long as the headspace is good and the breech thrust is straight and square (which it may never have been). If it is accurate and does the job, goodonya for working it out!
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2012, 07:48:50 AM »
I guess it's sort of a fix, but as gcrank said, if it increases headspace, and I don't see how it wouldn't since the pivot is fixed, and it's not accurate, what's the point.  ??? Have you checked it for accuracy yet, or just ignition? If I understand your description, basically you're leaving the barrel partially locked up with less latch engagement which won't work as far as actually firing it with live ammo. :-\

Tim
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Offline watkibe

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2012, 02:03:40 PM »
So far I have only fired it to prove ignition. The strikes are visibly less off-center, and seem a little deeper. The barrel seems to be tight against the breech. Today I bought a good set of feeler gauges, and will check it. If I recall, Tim, you said the action should close on a 0.001" feeler gauge; I don't recall what the thickest one you said was acceptable. I haven't accuracy tested it yet; but for the ignition test I fired the 3 rounds offhand at a paper target 25 yds away. All 3 hit the paper, so at least it's not shooting sideways or something !
 
Thanks and Happy Holidays to all !

Offline nanuk-O-dah-Nort

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2012, 02:52:04 PM »
I guess it's sort of a fix, but as gcrank said, if it increases headspace, and I don't see how it wouldn't since the pivot is fixed, and it's not accurate, what's the point.  ??? Have you checked it for accuracy yet, or just ignition? If I understand your description, basically you're leaving the barrel partially locked up with less latch engagement which won't work as far as actually firing it with live ammo. :-\

Tim

Tim, I am confused as to your description

how can having the barrel sit 0.024" high, increase headspace?

the only thing I can think of is it will alter the breechface angle, but in this case, that may be bringing it to square, as the Firing Pin would be hitting more centered.

as you state, the pivot is fixed, so headspace is wholely dependant on the relationship of the pivot pin, and the recess, unless the lockup is grossly out of spec.

my understanding of lockup for breakaction guns is:
1) the barrel/lug has to sit flat and tight in the receiver and the bore needs to be perpendicular to the breechface, for proper bore orientation.  On my .500 double rifle, the lug shelf is the watertable/shelf and is one solid piece of stuff, and the lever PULLED the chamber end of the barrels down TIGHT onto the shelf
2) the pivot pin and recess have to have the proper relation with the latch shelf, and latch to ensure a tight lockup when properly seated.   but that comes AFTER the barrel is seated.  the pivot/latch/shelf are just what hold it there.

if there is not a solid barrel/receiver seating happening, then closing the action with differing force would allow the barrel to sit at different locations based on where the shelf latch came to rest.

so in the above case, what now needs to be checked is EVEN breechface relation to the chamber/bore

ie/ same distance at top/bottom and sides. making the cartridge head square with the breechface.

I'm not sure the right way to check this, but one would need to spin a case on a known flat surface, and indicate off the shoulder to measure runout.  perhaps setting on a known flat surface and using TWO small machine squares, and simply measure by eyeball with a measurestick laid across the mouth

once it is determined that the breech is square to the chamber, the work on the pivot pin/recess and latch shelf can take place.  ( I am going to take a SWAG that if the Firing Pin strikes Center, then it is as perpendicular as it needs to be )

as the OP stated, all are firing good now, no FTF's   I assume pin strike is more centered.

I'd be surprised if accuracy was worse, and would expect better, as long as there is no opening on fireing. and it is locking up tight.

next step after determining the shim thickness under the Lug, the OP needs to reduce the breech face/barrel interface to the minimum.  This will probably require shimming the pivot recess.

Then smoke the shelf and work on proper latch engagement, thereby eliiminating any "Partially Locked Up barrel"

those things will give the OP a straight bore/receiver alignment, minimum headspace (perhaps too small if he is taking up 0.006) and strong latch engagement.

as the OP surmised at the start, perhaps the barrel was OVER locking, and now he has just corrected that.   

and that should make for an accurate shooter.





Can you walk me through this to help me, and perhaps others to understand?

didn't Fred M do some receiver bedding accomplish this same thing?



watkibe:  can you post a couple more pics of the pin strikes with shims in place?

thanks
'nuk


Offline quickdtoo

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2012, 05:09:45 PM »
If the barrel is fitted tight to the standing breech in the first place like it should be and it's left open or unlocked by .024" to change the firing pin inpact closer to center, it's gonna create a gap at the top of the barrel, the barrel doesn't come straight down parallel with the breech, it can't,  it rotates into the locked position, so as it's rotated out of battery, it's going to move away from the standing breech.

If the barrel isn't tight to the standing breech, it's gonna be loose due to the open pivot, unlike a TC with a closed pivot which doesn't need to be tight against the standing breech. I'm betting that the barrel is loose on the frame with the forend off with the shim on the bottom of the underlug, the forend will make it seem to fit tight, when it's actually loose. If it were mine, I'd quit messing with it and send it to H&R for repair while they may still have some replacement 35 Rem barrels.  ;)

Tim

"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline nanuk-O-dah-Nort

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2012, 11:12:14 AM »
quick: I understand what you are saying, but that is predicated on the receiver being machined correctly, also the lug. (can we assume that?)

Watkibe did say there was some space off the breech, but failed to say if that was at the top, or the bottom, or if it was square, and the whole face was open.

as all four barrels have high primer strikes, I would think the receiver is milled too deep/out of spec, and a return would be the best option, including sending in all the barrels for fitting to the newly machined receiver.

if it were just ONE barrel, one could assume it was the barrel, but with all 4 striking high, the receiver is suspect.

I think with the shims, the other barrels may give watkibe some troubles, then they too would require some fitting.

as long as there is warranty, perhaps in this case, it should be used.

it would be interesting to record some measurements of all the barrel lugs, AND the depth of the receiver lug recess, THEN compare the new measurements to what H&R sends back.



Offline watkibe

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Re: off-center firing pin strike - PICS ON LAST REPLY
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2012, 10:54:24 AM »
I hoped using superglue on the temporary shims would be self-removing, and it was, after shooting 3 full power 3 shot groups. Accuracy was as good or better than before, and of course, no misfires. The shims came loose before I tried my new feeler gauges between the shimmed barrel and breech when locked up. Without the shims, I was able to get it to close on the 0.003" gauge. Just laying the shims in the bottom of the frame worked before, so thats what I will try while measuring the lockup again. Remember, the shims probably don't give 0.024" change; the barrel travels a bit before the shims hit anything.
I will try to post picks of the shimmed fired cases compared to a misfired case. I have had trouble with my microscope camera software lately, but I will give it a try.
Thanks everybody for your two cent's worth ! By now I probably got about 2 bits worth, haha !