Author Topic: Making 45/70 legal Indiana deer hunting (Read 2255 times)

larry1945 · « **on:** November 16, 2012, 05:45:49 PM »

I purchased 45/70 handi two years ago and have enjoyed it shooting cast bullets at trapdoor levels. I have used 45/70 fact dup load on black bear and worked great. Indiana deer hunting laws were modified few years ago to permit pistol calibers in rifles such as .357, .44M, 45lc etc. The regs required .35 min with case length not to exceed 1.6 inches. This year they modified regs to permit .460 s&w so now it is min .35 cal with max case length of 1.8 inches. I contacted DNR and received reply that 45/70 would comply with regs if case length did not exceed 1.8 inches and no other ammo was in hand in field. I cut the 2.1 inch 45/70 case down to 1.8 inches, hand belled the case to start the cast bullet and left the seating die the same as normal 45/70. I now have a shortened 45/70 case with interior case capacity same as normal 45/70. The Lee cast 405 grain bullet seats out of the case with two bands out but shoots to same point impact as standard 45/70. You may question why I would go to the trouble which is a reasonable question. I just like the old war horse and accuracy in my opinion is much better than .44 mag in handi. Made up 10 rounds for hunting and doubt if I'll make any more. These should last for several years.

OSOK · « **Reply #1 on:** November 16, 2012, 06:10:58 PM »

I doubt anyone will question what you did. Sounds to me like a good plan, a lot cheaper than buying a new gun! I'd get the reply from DNR in writing just to be safe.
However, I do see one problem with your project...It will be hard to get into Handi-Holics Anonymous if you continue down this path!

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 17, 2012, 12:26:14 AM »

It should not be a problem. At least one member here has shortened a 356 neck so that the case length is 1.8" and is going to use it for deer. The law says that the case may not exceed 1.8" and the bullet must be at least .357" in diameter. Case shape makes no difference, so bottle necked cases will work, even a shortened 35 Remington. I believe there is a case called the 35 Hoosier which is a 30 WSM opened up to 35 for bolt guns.

BTW, the 44 Magnum can be loaded to good accuracy.

This is with a 1.3X scout scope at 50 yards. Probably could do better witha higher power scope. See rifle below.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

larry1945 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 17, 2012, 03:32:57 AM »

I did get in writing and have put copy under the butt plate as a consv officer already told me he'd consider illegal when saw 45/70 rollmarked on rifle.

tobster · « **Reply #4 on:** November 17, 2012, 03:57:25 AM »

After recieving mixed messages from different sources I contacted the DNR and was told a .35 Remington cut down to 1.80 would be legal for Indiana deer hunting. I think printing the response and keeping it with the rifle is a good idea.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** November 17, 2012, 05:08:52 AM »

The 45-70 short has been done before in the Indiana forum, I think it's been discussed in the Wildcat forum too.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,225603.msg1099397222.html#msg1099397222

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php#c6

jpshaw · « **Reply #6 on:** November 17, 2012, 11:52:21 AM »

I'm glad you have it in writting. State laws for primitive jump all over the place. I called a local game warden a few years back to check on using my .357 Mag Handi (which chambers .360 DW) since the law said .38 or larger. He said; "sure .357 is just a souped up .38 so I worked up some loads with 180 grain Hornady pushed by a heavy load of H110. Decided I'd better check one more time and called the state directly. This guy said; "no way. Its got to be .38 inches". Soooo I hunted the Primitive with my overbore .44. This year I bought a .444 with a 1/20" twist and was really ready. Then I picked up the Louisiana Game laws and it said; ".35 or larger. Already spent the bucks and didn't need to. Law change each year but never trust a verbal statement.

possumpacker · « **Reply #7 on:** November 17, 2012, 03:50:45 PM »

i did the same thing larry. 1.6 last year didnt shoot all that great 1.8 turned my buffalo classic into a tac driver with a 405 bullet seated long. id bet the CO you talked to dont even know what 45-70 really means. im using 29gr 4198.

Dinny · « **Reply #8 on:** November 18, 2012, 04:41:56 AM »

Now you guys have me thinking about a shortened 45-70. My 50+ y/o mother has a 357 Max Handi but likes shooting my 45-70 with light loads better. I bet it won't take much velocity to kill a deer when you hit them with a 405gr bullet. What do you guys think, 1200-1300 fps?

Thanks, Dinny

Dinny · « **Reply #9 on:** November 18, 2012, 06:38:43 AM »

Quote from: larry1945 on November 17, 2012, 03:32:57 AM

I did get in writing and have put copy under the butt plate as a consv officer already told me he'd consider illegal when saw 45/70 rollmarked on rifle.

Larry,
To save me pestering the IDNR, would you send me a copy of that letter so I can have one in-hand?

Thanks, Dinny

larry1945 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 18, 2012, 09:45:11 AM »

Dinny.....I'm not sure how to get it to you. I have my email setting forth what I proposed to do and they responded positive as long as no standard 45/70 ammo in field. Send me an email address and I'll forward the email.

Larry

wtroger · « **Reply #11 on:** November 18, 2012, 12:39:16 PM »

Sounds cool. So does the game wardens carry calipers. If not you are probably going to get hassled. They won't let us hunt here with anything smaller than a .230 bullet so i built a 6mm x 45 using the same weight bullets as a 223 only in 24 caliber and I do keep calipers in the truck.

nanuk-O-dah-Nort · « **Reply #12 on:** November 18, 2012, 03:45:06 PM »

Quote from: LaOtto222 on November 17, 2012, 12:26:14 AM

This is with a 1.3X scout scope at 50 yards. Probably could do better witha higher power scope. See rifle below.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

what scout mount is that?

omegahunter · « **Reply #13 on:** November 21, 2012, 03:08:35 AM »

Are you crimping the 1.8 45/70?

kynardsj · « **Reply #14 on:** November 21, 2012, 03:36:38 AM »

From the outside looking in, ( Alabama ) it seems that the Indiana law makers have too much time on their hands. Coming up with limits on case length.

I can maybe see a minimum on the diameter of the bullet but wonder how much these guys got paid to debate, consider and pass the law that will allow going from 1.6 inches to 1.8 inches on case length. Here in Alabama for deer hunting, as long as it's centerfire and not a full metal jacket bullet we're good to go. I feel for you hunters that have to deal with this.

dave29 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 21, 2012, 03:39:24 AM »

Don't feel sorry for us. I think it is fun coming up with legal calibers to use! That's just me though.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #16 on:** November 21, 2012, 04:15:47 AM »

Quote from: kynardsj on November 21, 2012, 03:36:38 AM

From the outside looking in, ( Alabama ) it seems that the Indiana law makers have too much time on their hands. Coming up with limits on case length. I can maybe see a minimum on the diameter of the bullet but wonder how much these guys got paid to debate, consider and pass the law that will allow going from 1.6 inches to 1.8 inches on case length. Here in Alabama for deer hunting, as long as it's centerfire and not a full metal jacket bullet we're good to go. I feel for you hunters that have to deal with this.

Seems that way until you consider Mn. laws which say to the effect >.22 centerfire. Now strictly interpreted that includes .25 ACP as a legal deer hunting round. The booklet later goes on to say use good judgement in your cartridge selection.

I would argue that In. has at least taken the time to research what is effective and at the same time limits bullet over travel. To sit and list every current legal calibre and then amend that list every few years makes less sense. The overwelming majority of hunters will pick up a .44mag rifle and get 'er done, just as the legislature hoped they would do. The law still allows for some old less popular guns to go walking the woods again and allows gun makers both large and small to innovate.

I find the idea of a Hoosier stamped case pretty cool. I lived in Indiana for several years and was sad to move, I love Mn. but would happily go back to In. if needed.

kynardsj · « **Reply #17 on:** November 21, 2012, 04:27:34 AM »

I truly hope no one is foolish enough to use something like a 25 ACP for deer hunting, or other small centerfire pistol cartridges. It just seems a shame that something tried and true like a 30-30 can't legally be used if I'm understanding this right. Oh well, good luck to all of you hunters up north with whatever you hunt with.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #18 on:** November 21, 2012, 05:20:08 AM »

Quote from: kynardsj on November 21, 2012, 04:27:34 AM

I truly hope no one is foolish enough to use something like a 25 ACP for deer hunting, or other small centerfire pistol cartridges. It just seems a shame that something tried and true like a 30-30 can't legally be used if I'm understanding this right. Oh well, good luck to all of you hunters up north with whatever you hunt with.

The progression goes something like this. Slug hunting, Sabot slug hunting, Muzzle loading, then Pistol hunting. At this point folks start wondering why a 44mag from a 6" barrel is more special than one from a 16" barrel? If humane harvest is a concern then how can it be argued that a pistol is better than a scoped rifle? Bullet flite is nearly identical weapon capacity can indeed be lower as well just plug like a shotgun if needed.

Well if a .44 is so great why not a .44-40, or .357, or .41, .454casull, .460, .500, you see where this is going. 45-70 vs. 500 S&W same same, 45-70 vs. 30-06 again same same? Convincing arguements can be made that the 45-70 is much more powerful than a 30-06. Now we come to the limits because a 45-70 isn't really the same as a 30-06 is it? It sure as heck ain't a .357mag and thats about where the bottom of this list needs to start not at 9mm para or just about any other auto round for that matter. Straight wall only leaves out .44-40 so we add in the >.35 calibre proviso >.35 allows a ton of African safari grade guns so we add <1.8" to weed out that group then a minimum length to limit the auto rounds. Which leaves almost every decent pistol round and a very few rifle rounds which honestly are pistol rounds in the end aren't they? Oh, and we have wiggle room for the wildcatters, who honestly are so few as to be little more than a nuisance, and something for bored Squirel Sherriffs to fool with.

As far as the rifle hunting goes there are too danged many farms and way too few trees. If you think the west has vast distances I invite you to climb up on a tuna can and get the view of the open prairie. A man with a .338 Lapua mag could control a township, and I mean every square inch could be scoped. A fired bullet would not be stopped and the curvature of the earth would only increase the distance the round would travel before falling. Some hyperbole but you must see to believe what the prairie is all about

kynardsj · « **Reply #19 on:** November 21, 2012, 06:27:36 AM »

I do know yall have some flat land up that way. Back in the 70's I made a trip to (and I hope I spell these right) Gifford, Illinois to visit a friend for a couple of days. I went straight north up I-65 to Indianapolis and hung a left. He was stationed at (spelling again) Rantoul A.F.B. but lived in Gifford. Seems it was 11 miles or so to the AFB but you could walk outside in his yard and see it. That's some flat dirt.

8uck5nort · « **Reply #20 on:** November 21, 2012, 06:59:17 AM »

I know that the laws are a bit confusing in Indiana about rifle vs pistol rounds. You can shoot the 45/70 in a "pistol" legally.

Here are the eact regs from this years 2012 -2013 booklet.

Legal Handgun:
Handguns, other than muzzleloading, must have a barrel at least 4 inches long and must fire a bullet of .243-inch diameter or larger. The handgun cartridge case, without the bullet, must be at least 1.16 inches long. Full metal-jacketed bullets are not permitted.
Illegal Handgun:
Some handgun cartridges that are illegal for deer hunting are .38 Special, .38 Smith and Wesson, .38 Colt New Police, .38/200,
.38 Long Colt, .38 Super, .38 ACP, .38 Colt Auto, .45 ACP, .45 Automatic and .45 Auto Rim. All .25/.20, .32/.20 and .30 carbine ammunition is prohibited.

Legal Rifle:
Rifles with cartridges that fire a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and have a maximum case length of 1.8 inches are legal to use only during the deer firearms and special antlerless seasons. Some cartridges legal for deer hunting include the .357 Magnum, .38-.40 Winchester, .41 Magnum, .41 Special, .44 Magnum, .44 Special, .44-.40 Winchester, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .458 SOCOM, .475 Linebaugh, .480 Ruger, .50 Action Express, .500 S&W, .460 Smith & Wesson, .450 Bushmaster, and .50 Beowulf.

Technically as long as your weapon of choice meets the requirements as outlined above you should be good to go.

Personally I think it really depends on the situation and which DNR officer you get if you get stopped. I think most DNR officers will probably check the headstamp on the cartridge and just go with that. Some might not. Either way I would only be in the woods with a properly headstamped and approved cartridge just to avoid the hassle. Of course you can go into the woods with a 45/70 and cut down brass which in my opinion makes you perfectly legal, but the rookie DNR officer may not think so. Then you have to go through the hassle of proving it instead of shooting game.

tobster · « **Reply #21 on:** November 21, 2012, 08:16:27 AM »

These rule changes kind of remind me of Mad Magazines old cartoon Spy vrs. Spy. One side comes up with something and the other side comes up with something to "one-up" it and vice versa. While a cartridge like a .270 might have a lot longer range than a 12 gauge slug when fired at a 45 degree angle, who's shot at a deer is taken at a 45 degree angle? I'm sure a .270 hitting the ground after being fired at a deer is much less likely to ricochet than a 12 gauge slug.

possumpacker · « **Reply #22 on:** November 21, 2012, 11:43:38 AM »

omegahunter, i just use a taper crimp on the 45-70 1.8

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #23 on:** November 22, 2012, 05:16:44 AM »

Dinny,

I think your assessment for the .45-70 of a 405 gr. bullet at 1200-1300 fps for deer hunting is good. Especially so inside 125 yards. Last year I hunted with my Ruger No.1 with a 405 gr. Remington soft point at 1875 fps. Judging by the damage to the deer, this was overkill. I'm fairly certain this load would have brought down any animal in North America. They can't be more than dead, so slow it down and enjoy the moderate recoil (especially for your Mom). Just my opinion.

Steve

Dinny · « **Reply #24 on:** November 22, 2012, 05:55:36 AM »

Thanks Steve! Next summer I'll start working on some TB loads to see if I get the velocities I want. Mom's shots are a lot shorter than that, she doesn't shoot if she can't smell the deer.

I even have some great cast HP bullets that are 330gr and my lo vel load gives me 1100fps with plenty of room left in the case to get to 1300fps.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Dinny

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #25 on:** November 23, 2012, 05:12:53 AM »

Quote from: kynardsj on November 21, 2012, 06:27:36 AM

I do know yall have some flat land up that way. Back in the 70's I made a trip to (and I hope I spell these right) Gifford, Illinois to visit a friend for a couple of days. I went straight north up I-65 to Indianapolis and hung a left. He was stationed at (spelling again) Rantoul A.F.B. but lived in Gifford. Seems it was 11 miles or so to the AFB but you could walk outside in his yard and see it. That's some flat dirt.

That part of the country is zactly where I am from. I worked in the fertilizer biz in that area, to be exact, grew up near Danville, Il.

michael_richardson43 · « **Reply #26 on:** November 23, 2012, 05:44:57 AM »

"Squirrel Sherriff" I like it but in Southern Indiana we loving refer to them as possum cops.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #27 on:** November 23, 2012, 03:01:50 PM »

Quote from: michael_richardson43 on November 23, 2012, 05:44:57 AM

"Squirrel Sherriff" I like it but in Southern Indiana we loving refer to them as possum cops.

I will likely be stealing that. It gives an even further south vernacular to my vocabulary.

These Mn. folks act as though I'm from L.A. (lower Alabama) as it is.

Oh, you sound funny talk some more.