Please help kill this dangerous urban legend about blackpowder

[cannonmn]

I'm placing this here as a public service announcement in order to try and kill or offset a very dangerous urban legend I heard today for the first time.
 
Attended a gun show today where a somewhat scraggly-bearded man, all white hair, medium height, 50-ish approached me and told me how much he liked my cannon-shooting videos.  He then asked if I made or bought my blackpowder.  I told him I buy it.  Then he said I ought to try making my own blackpowder but to SUBSTITUTE POTASSIUM CHLORATE for potassium nitrate in the formula, because it would "make a more powerful propellant".  Warning from me:  NEVER, EVER DO THAT!
 
Why?  Potassium chlorate is a powerful oxidizer, and was often used in percussion caps and primers because when mixed with a fuel such as sulfur it makes a shock and friction and pressure-sensitive explosive.  If you went through the steps used in making blackpowder, such as grinding etc. and used potassium chlorate instead, you would have a powerful, likely lethal explosion during the process,  Even grinding a teaspoon of such a mixture would probably cost you at least one hand, one or both eyes, and probably most of your hearing, if a fragment of the mixing vessel didn't kill you outright.  AGAIN, NEVER, EVER DO THIS!
 
I have no idea how widespread this rumor is, or how many people are going around spreading it, but please help kill this before it kills and/or maims someone or some number of people.

[Cannoneer]

I assume that you set the individual straight on the matter; what was his response?

[shred]

Chlorate was used in "white powders", competing with black but those are long gone... and much more dangerous as stated, especially when mixed with sulfur like in BP

The only good thing is it's getting tough to buy pure potassium chlorate in any quantity these days without reams of paperwork

[Artilleryman]

I heard of one case where a artillery crew was using mixing it with their regular blackpowder blank charges to get a louder report. 

[Ranch13]

They do use potassium prechlorate in the manufacture of Pyrodex.

[armorer77]

Perchlorate is not the same . I learned long ago about chlorates and sulfur .

[JeffG]

THAT particular piece of folklore is gonna get some body killed!

[cannonmn]

I heard of one case where a artillery crew was using mixing it with their regular blackpowder blank charges to get a louder report. 

I have no doubt it would do that, however I would be hesitant to even try it until I knew what kind of pressure curve was generated by the practice mentioned.
 
Blackpowder is classified as a "low explosive" because it deflagrates rather than detonates (like a high explosive.)  The reaction of chlorate-based explosives is more toward a detonation than a deflagration, with very rapid rise of pressure.
 
 I'd say the practice of blending a chlorate into granular blackpowder may not have caused an accident with the one gun and crew mentioned, but that doesn't mean the next crew to try it won't blow up their gun.  We don't know what BP grade was used by that crew or anything.  What if the gun did't blow up with Cannon Grade and chlorate, but another crew tries it with FG and loses the gun and a couple of gunners?  IN MY OPINION THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THE AVERAGE CREW SHOULD TRY, POTENTIAL RISK TO LIFE, LIMB, AND PROPERTY NOT WORTH IT.  Only careful testing under controlled conditions, with pressure-measuring gauges can allow this practice to be evaluated competently.  If you MUST get a bigger bang. try varying some parameters but still use only straight blackpowder of one granulation or another.

[skratch]

Many years ago a geek cousin swiped chemicals from his high school lab to try to make gun powder.  Instead of PN he used PC. He was pounding the mixture into a pipe to make a pipe bomb. It exploded but luckily the pressure escaped mostly out the pipe end and only burned and bloodied his hand. The shrapnel caused minor wounds to the kid with him.
That ended his pyrotechnic experiments.
Another " Don't try this at home kids "   


John.....

[Victor3]

Perchlorate is not the same . I learned long ago about chlorates and sulfur .

 What you probably learned is something anyone contemplating messing with these compounds should know...


 Most sulfur contain a small amount of sulfuric acid, which when it comes in contact with potassium chlorate can cause the mixture to ignite. Often times it happens after the mixture has been sitting on a shelf for a while when it's not expected, causing a very hot fire (or when mixed with other chemicals, an explosion).


 A good friend of mine was involved in manufacturing special effects for the movie industry for decades. He told me that out of all the "experts" he knew in the field, hardly a one of them hadn't experienced some sort of mishap at one time or another. Fooling around with pyro compounds isn't something the average joe should do prior to a lot of education on the subject.

[Artilleryman]

I heard of one case where a artillery crew was using mixing it with their regular blackpowder blank charges to get a louder report. 

I have no doubt it would do that, however I would be hesitant to even try it until I knew what kind of pressure curve was generated by the practice mentioned.
 
Blackpowder is classified as a "low explosive" because it deflagrates rather than detonates (like a high explosive.)  The reaction of chlorate-based explosives is more toward a detonation than a deflagration, with very rapid rise of pressure.
 
 I'd say the practice of blending a chlorate into granular blackpowder may not have caused an accident with the one gun and crew mentioned, but that doesn't mean the next crew to try it won't blow up their gun.  We don't know what BP grade was used by that crew or anything.  What if the gun did't blow up with Cannon Grade and chlorate, but another crew tries it with FG and loses the gun and a couple of gunners?  IN MY OPINION THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THE AVERAGE CREW SHOULD TRY, POTENTIAL RISK TO LIFE, LIMB, AND PROPERTY NOT WORTH IT.  Only careful testing under controlled conditions, with pressure-measuring gauges can allow this practice to be evaluated competently.  If you MUST get a bigger bang. try varying some parameters but still use only straight blackpowder of one granulation or another.

I don't think that any crew should try this.   The person that told me about this refused to take his gun and crew onto the field when he discovered what the other crew was doing.

[subdjoe]

I assume that you set the individual straight on the matter; what was his response?

I've noticed that with "experts" like that you will only tick them off if you try to educate them.  They know what they know, don't confuse them with facts.

[cannonmn]

I assume that you set the individual straight on the matter; what was his response?

I told him in rather emphatic terms, and he didn't argue, but it was hard to tell whether that info sank in or rolled off.

[Cannoneer]

I think it is the honorable thing to do (especially if it's a matter of life and limb), even if the person that you're giving the good advice to decides to scornfully reject it.

[Joey V.]

Potassium chlorate is the main ingrediant in a true M-80. M-80 as I was told, stood for military-80 and it was used to simulate live fire for drills back in ww2.  Don't know if it is true but if you find a person selling TRUE M-80 they are totally illigal.  My whole point being it makes a derivative of blk powder that can kill you!!!!!  The only Blk part of it is the charcoal stains it blk never do it!!!

[SHOOTALL]

I would wonder if in some strange way the old guy was testing you or maybe even trying to set you up ? The anti's will got to great lengths to do their dirty work. Nothing is to low. One gun show I went to they were loading displayed guns , and yes one went off shooting a hole in the roof.

[armorer77]

Joey V , there is no charcoal in flash powder . And that is enough of that .

[Cannon Cocker]

The  fact that he was using Potassium Chlorate for anything, is sure sign of pure ignorance, as even the fireworks industry rarely uses it now that Potassium Perchlorate has become the safer replacement for it in most applications.  This is not to say that a powder made with Potassium Perchlorate would be safe to use in a black powder cannon.  It would not.  The idea is that even if he was making flash powder in an application that it was designed for, the knowledgeable people in that industry would also look down upon it. 

[Double D]

  This is not to say that a powder made with Potassium Perchlorate would be safe to use in a black powder cannon.  It would not.  The idea is that even if he was making flash powder in an application that it was designed for, the knowledgeable people in that industry would also look down upon it.

Ever seen the MSDS for Pyrodex and Triple 7? http://www.hodgdon.com/msds.html

[cannonmn]

Ever seen the MSDS for Pyrodex ...

MSDS Section VII:  "Do not drop containers of Pyrodex."
 
Hmmm...

[GGaskill]

MSDS Section VII:  "Do not drop containers of Pyrodex."

That was probably written by a lawyer, not a chemist.  One would think that if ignition/explosion by dropping were a real hazard, it would be mentioned in the previous heading (Precautions to Be Taken in Handling and Storing.)

[Victor3]

 Yeah, but it could be dangerous if you drop it on your toe. 

[Victor3]

  This is not to say that a powder made with Potassium Perchlorate would be safe to use in a black powder cannon.  It would not.  The idea is that even if he was making flash powder in an application that it was designed for, the knowledgeable people in that industry would also look down upon it.

Ever seen the MSDS for Pyrodex and Triple 7? http://www.hodgdon.com/msds.html

There are some differences between buying a bottle of Jack Daniels & mixing up your own batch of moonshine. 

[Ranch13]

I'm placing this here as a public service announcement in order to try and kill or offset a very dangerous urban legend I heard today for the first time.
 
Attended a gun show today where a somewhat scraggly-bearded man, all white hair, medium height, 50-ish approached me and told me how much he liked my cannon-shooting videos.  He then asked if I made or bought my blackpowder.  I told him I buy it.  Then he said I ought to try making my own blackpowder but to SUBSTITUTE POTASSIUM CHLORATE for potassium nitrate in the formula, because it would "make a more powerful propellant".  Warning from me:  NEVER, EVER DO THAT!
 
Why?  Potassium chlorate is a powerful oxidizer, and was often used in percussion caps and primers because when mixed with a fuel such as sulfur it makes a shock and friction and pressure-sensitive explosive.  If you went through the steps used in making blackpowder, such as grinding etc. and used potassium chlorate instead, you would have a powerful, likely lethal explosion during the process,  Even grinding a teaspoon of such a mixture would probably cost you at least one hand, one or both eyes, and probably most of your hearing, if a fragment of the mixing vessel didn't kill you outright.  AGAIN, NEVER, EVER DO THIS!
 
I have no idea how widespread this rumor is, or how many people are going around spreading it, but please help kill this before it kills and/or maims someone or some number of people.

Been thinking on this for a bit, and I have to wonder.. I've been around bp for 50 years, have read alot of recipe's both from printed sources and on the internet, and this is the first time I've ever heard of someone suggesting the chlorates of any form. With of course the exception of Pyrodex, and the explosions that wrecked Hogdons plant and the second one killed the Pyrodex inventor.
So I'm left to wonder, did you by posting this thread do more to arouse the at home alchemists curiosity , than squashing any attempts to use the stuff in their home brew?
Making blackpowder in and of itself is hazardous, notice Goex has just had another explosion, only this time the damage wasn't extensive, and they should have stuff rolling again by January. Depending on the jurisdiction , making blackpowder could be consider manufacturing of explosives and get a person into some deep doodoo..
I believe if someone approaches you about buying or making bp, it's best to mention that buying bp is as simple as placing the order as there are a number of outfits that will ship direct to your door in lots as small as 1 lb, and you don't have to worry about turning your work area into a smoldering hole, and making the national news. Plus you know the stuff you pour from the can or the bag is going to work just fine.