Author Topic: Opinions on AR (Read 9895 times)

Old Syko · « **Reply #30 on:** November 22, 2012, 01:57:03 AM »

Cuts, if he's a serious shooter it will be interesting to hear what he thinks of the 24" barrel since it really isn't a carry gun. The one I have in that length is a 1-7 that I used to test some 100 grain slugs in hopes of getting superior long range performance. The slugs at least turned out to be less than successful and the twist is too tight for 55 and 60 grain match slugs so I use 77 and 80s. The extra length on the other hand lends itself well to shooting stability of the gun itself. That 1-8 should do well with quality slugs in the 69 to 80 grain range. If he spares no expense on optics he should have a real shooter.

NYH1 · « **Reply #31 on:** November 24, 2012, 12:50:46 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on November 22, 2012, 01:56:20 AM

I shoot everyday. I just stated the facts and you started in with a bunch of nonsense. Pretty common actually. Colt doesn't mark them AR-15 and hasan't in years. They are Colt Sporters.

Swammy, click on the link below, then click on the picture of the lower receiver. Then you'll see that Colt is marking some of their models AR-15, they have been. I've been looking at Colt AR-15 Carbines lately. I'd like to get one of their AR6720 Lightweight Carbines (marked AR-15A4 Carbine), but even one of their LE6920 Carbine models might do. The LE6920 (which you have), LE6920MP-B (Magpal Black) and LE6920SOCOM are nice setups too.

Colt is a top teir AR-15/M-16/M-4/1911 manufacture and you did very good with your LE6920 Carbine, there is no doubt about that. But a LE6920 Carbine is a AR-15A3 or A4 Carbine, not a M-4 Carbine, it's about the closest thing one can get to a M-4 Carbine. A M-4 Carbine is a 14.5" barreled, select fire (mostly 3 shot burst) carbine. The M-4A1 Carbine is pretty much the same thing as the M-4 Carbine but as I understand it's full auto instead of 3 shot burst. It's more geared towards Special Operations Units and Special Forces.

And you'll be very hard pressed to shoot 1 MOA let alone 1/2 MOA with a chrome lined barrel. That's just the nature of the beast. It's not a knock or your carbine or anyone elses. It's just the way it is. You can go with a regular or stainless steel barrel and get very good accuracy or go with a chromed lined barrel and get the ease of maintance and better durabilitey that go's alone with them. You can't get both.

Colt AR-15A3 Tacticle Carbine link-

http://www.colt.com/ColtLawEnforcement/Products/ColtTacticalCarbine.aspx

NYH1.

Swampman · « **Reply #32 on:** November 24, 2012, 02:19:14 PM »

Mine shoots great.....It's marked M4 and that's what it is. If others want to buy special stuff to achieve Colt OEM accuracy that's up to them.

NYH1 · « **Reply #33 on:** November 24, 2012, 03:28:32 PM »

A lot of AR's shoot better then most Colt's do. That's because they're setup to shoot better. Colts are usually setup as combat rifles and carbines. In which case they aren't going to shoot as well as say a Rock River Arms Varmint AR15 with a 24" stainless steel heavy barrel with sex screws instead of pins in the receives. You either buy or build an AR to shoot or you buy or build one to be combat ready which means reliability and durability, not accuracy. Not that they won't be accurate, they'll be combat accurate instead of bench rest/varmint accurate.

Your LE6920 is marked M-4 for two reasons, 1- because it's cheaper for Colt to use the machines with the M-4 roll marks instead of changing it over to AR-15A3 or AR-15A4, 2- and the biggest reason of all, it's a marketing gimmick. Guys like you buy them and run with them and tell lesser educated and knowledgeable guys that don't know any better that you have a M-4, because they're the cool thing to have. Never mind the fact that your AR15A3/A4 Carbine isn't even in spec with a M-4 with two very important things missing, the correct barrel length (14.5" to your 16") and no selector switch.

NYH1.

Swampman · « **Reply #34 on:** November 24, 2012, 03:38:35 PM »

I have a Colt M4 because it's the best you can buy.

SharonAnne · « **Reply #35 on:** November 24, 2012, 04:36:33 PM »

Wow, has this page ever gone off topic!!!

CUTS CROOKED, I would love to have anyone give me the MIDNIGHT DRAGON rifle. So what if it has Bling. A Christmas present should have a little Bling. I am sure your son will love it! You are a good Father.

I clicked on the link and sure enough it is labeled "AR15-A3".

Blanket statements that chrome lined barrels are not accurate are in error.
At the web page fnusa.com you will find that FN offers 3 rifles with " MIL SPEC barrel with hard chrome bore" that maintain minute of angle at 100 yards. They are the SPR A1, SPR A1a and the SPR A5M. The model SPR A3G with "MIL SPEC fluted barrel with hard chrome bore" will "maintain sub-half minute of angle (sub-1/2 MOA)" accuracy at 100 yards.

FN USA sells some of those models to the FBI. The FBI is aware the barrels are chrome lined. They don't care! It is the accuracy standard they do care about.

I would be careful about blanket statements. Your words will come back to bite you on the butt as Swampman just found out. Once you make a statement on here it stays here and can be found and brought back.

OLD SYKO, where did you find 100 grain .224" bullets and what brand are they? I too have 1/7" twist barrels (2) and would like to try some.

NYH1 · « **Reply #36 on:** November 24, 2012, 07:03:16 PM »

It's a true statement that 9 out of 10 times a rifle with a chrome lined barrel will be noticeably less accurate then a rifle without a chrome lined barrel. If that wasn't the case then most bench rest shooter would use chrome line barrel because the durability is so much better and barrels wouldn't get shot out as quickly.

Obviously there are exceptions, AR15's aren't it. Take a look at all the companies that make combat service type AR15's and AR15 Varmint Rifles and you'll notice that they don't use chrome lined barrels for their Varmint AR15's. They leave the chrome lined barrels to their combat service type AR15 rifles and carbines. Some make accuracy guaranties and usually their chrome lined AR's will be double the accuracy guaranty then non chrome lined barrel rifles and carbines will be.

It's pretty hard to get a REAL M4 Carbine and even AR15 carbines and rifles with chromed lined barrels to shoot MOA, they weren't designed to do so and it's VERY HARD to get one to shoot 1/2 MOA. . . . .especially when said shooter claims "if he had a scope he's sure his would" and then a day or so later claims his can and does shoot 1/2 MOA. He go's from one extreme to the other with straight up lies. I've had nothing else to do so it's been comical to watch, to say the least.

NYH1.

Swampman · « **Reply #37 on:** November 25, 2012, 12:52:54 AM »

Quote from: NYH1 on November 24, 2012, 07:03:16 PM

It's pretty hard to get a M4 Carbine and even AR15 carbines and rifles with chromed lined barrels to shoot MOA, they weren't designed to do so and it's VERY HARD to get one to shoot 1/2 MOA

It hasn't been for me but mine were Colts and I can shoot. I also have people tell me it can't be done with Handi Rifles, Marlin 336s, and production deer rifles but I do it all the time. Just lucky I guess. I find that most people blame their equipment for their failings.

Swampman · « **Reply #38 on:** November 25, 2012, 12:55:04 AM »

Quote from: SharonAnne on November 24, 2012, 04:36:33 PM

I would be careful about blanket statements. Your words will come back to bite you on the butt as Swampman just found out

No I didn't. I'm right....

SharonAnne · « **Reply #39 on:** November 25, 2012, 04:41:20 AM »

NYH1, you claim 9 out of 10 chrome lined barrels will be less accurate. Where did you get that stat? Unless you have checked say 1000 chromed and 1000 non chromed barrels your self I would like to know the source of your statement.

SharonAnne · « **Reply #40 on:** November 25, 2012, 05:51:01 AM »

hmm, I have never seen anyone who can shoot. Well we had the #3 ranked NRA high power rifle shooter as a member of my Michigan club for many years. I was in a squad at the 2000 USPSA Nationals/IPSC Hemisphere Championship with Jerry Micklek (sp) 10 time IRC champ. Out here in AZ the regulars at the range I frequented before breaking my back include Rob Leatham multi time USPSA champion and multi time IPSC World Champion. Then there is Matt Burkett, multi time 3 gun champion. Brian Enos before he retired. Vic Pickett who finished #2 at 10 IRC matches was a shooting buddy of mine when I shot revolver. At the annual Mystery Mountain 3 gun championship the best 3 gun (rifle, pistol, shotgun) shooters show up. I have been to the USPSA National Open championships a time or two.

The good shooters I have seen put their skills on public display. Yes, I have seen some folks who can shoot.

What have you or your 'good shooters' done?

Swampman · « **Reply #41 on:** November 25, 2012, 07:28:55 AM »

What haven't we done? Some of it cannot be released to the public for several more years.

NYH1 · « **Reply #42 on:** November 25, 2012, 07:32:59 AM »

Quote from: SharonAnne on November 25, 2012, 04:41:20 AM

NYH1, you claim 9 out of 10 chrome lined barrels will be less accurate. Where did you get that stat? Unless you have checked say 1000 chromed and 1000 non chromed barrels your self I would like to know the source of your statement.

My experience and talking to manufactures and fellow shooters. Every manufacture I talked to when I was shopping for AR's in the pass. They all told me if accuracy was my main priority not to get a chrome lined barrel. If easier maintenance and durability was my main priority then get a chrome lined barrel. Reading information in different articles online and on other forums was a good source of information too. Like I said, there are exception, AR's aren't usually them.

NYH1.

cjclemens · « **Reply #43 on:** November 25, 2012, 04:13:05 PM »

Quote

What haven't we done? Some of it cannot be released to the public for several more years.

Oh boy, here we go. Gotta be one on every forum.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #44 on:** November 26, 2012, 03:11:31 AM »

i like stainless on every thing
even my single action revolvers

blue is just permanent just damage waiting for a moment of in-attention

all stainless AR barrels are long and/or heavy

why no 16 to 18 inch in a light to medium barrel
i been looking for awhile

if you want to go light you have to go blue

mine has a 20 inch medium weight barrel from walther
its still a little heavy....but real accurate

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #45 on:** November 26, 2012, 05:36:47 AM »

So what's the difference in an M-4 and a Colt CAR ? does the M-4 have the grove fop grenade lancher attac. ?

cjclemens · « **Reply #46 on:** November 26, 2012, 02:49:31 PM »

Quote

So what's the difference in an M-4 and a Colt CAR ? does the M-4 have the grove fop grenade lancher attac. ?

M-4 is just the military designation for a carbine with a flat-top upper reciever, 14.5" barrel, and the 6 position adjustable stock. M-4's also are selective-fire with semi-auto and 3 round burst modes. The M-4 A1 models have full auto capability. What most people call M-4's are just AR-15's with a 16" barrel (14.5" barrels are too short to own without doing a little extra paperwork). The barrel cut for the undermount grenade launcher is AP4. I think all M-4's have them.

Now, CAR was nothing more than Colt's attempt at rebranding AR's. CAR stands for Colt Automatic Rifle, whereas AR stood for Arma-Lite Rifle. You could get a CAR-15 configured in almost any way imaginable, just like you can an AR-15. There are so many versions of the CAR, that it would be difficult to list them here, but many of them were carbine/submachinegun variations that Colt was attempting to develop for the military.

It seems the whole M-4/CAR/AR-15 argument is no more than a prolonged disagreement over mere semantics.

SharonAnne · « **Reply #47 on:** November 27, 2012, 01:02:01 PM »

NYH1, thank you.

SharonAnne · « **Reply #48 on:** November 27, 2012, 04:08:26 PM »

the US sniper with the most confirmed kills ever is a matter of public knowledge. The US sniper and the Canadian and UK snipers with the longest confirmed kills are a matter of public knowledge.

NYH1 · « **Reply #49 on:** November 27, 2012, 05:57:26 PM »

SharonAnne, I'd love to shoot with some of the guys you mentioned. Jerry Micklek is an awesome shooter. Most people only know him as a revolver ace. I've seen a few shows with him shooting AR's and AK's. And he can flat out shoot.

Funny thing happened tonight. We were at the store and while my wife was shopping my son and I went over to the magazine section to look through some rags and kill time. One magazine had an article about the Colt LE6920SOCOM AR15A4 Carbine. They put it through it's paces. They said "it's the closest thing to a M4 that one can buy". Gee, doesn't sound like a real M4 to me. . . . .you guys?? They spoke very highly of it and rightly so. Their best group was 1 1/8 MOA. Not the 1/2 MOA that Swamper gets off hand, rapid fire with iron sights, but still good nonetheless.

NYH1.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #50 on:** November 28, 2012, 02:40:08 AM »

This is getting funny. We have folks taking sides on type of inside bbl. treatment chrome vs not . Consider any rifle needs to be shot some to season the bbl or lapped . Chrome resist either . just saying. Could a chrome lined bbl. be a tack driver ?it could happen every so often .
Then there are those who argure that they know of snipers who can do this or that in rebutal of others post. I have talked to some of those guys and couple of the guys who build rifles they use . I feel confident they would laugh at this topic. They don't walk on water , they miss some ! They know what there weapon will do under most any condition though . How many here do ? The sniper from Canada with the long kill missed his first shot ( he was using american ammo as he had run out of his). These guys are great shooters because the can adjust to conditions as they need to. Most are great woodsmen and now well versed in urban cat and mouse games and tracking. A guy who shoots often maybe everyday with the same rifle and it is built to shoot at long range can match the skills of a sniper with good training or alot of pratice. But who is that free to do so ? BTW at the range or hunting we don't have to worry about all hell comming down on us after the shot like snipers often do. That's what makes them so speical they can fight back any fear and do their job.
Now MOA the holy grail of these post. There are rifles that will shoot bad groups at 100 yards but sub MOA at 300 . and vise versa. How many posting know what their rifle will do ? Putting the bullet to sleep

I started a topic about sighting in a rifle , it was written about how one sniper taught how it. should be done. He was good at his trade . He said he was not the best shot but was good at hunting. It is an interesting read. I liked the part about calling you shot and being correct .
Also any rifle that can shoot 5 shots with out letting the bbl. cool into a group that is sub moa is a good rifle one that can do 50 rounds would be worth its weight in gold.

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #51 on:** November 28, 2012, 02:20:48 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on November 25, 2012, 04:48:19 AM

Lots of folks say I'm a liar but I just keep doing it.

We see that!

(sorry but that one was just too easy)

Folks I never wanted this to devolve into a slam fest, I just wanted opinions on a specific rifle. I got enough to make a descision and I ordered it. I only hope I made the right choice.

My son is a demanding person when it comes to his firearms, you see.....he is a high functioning Autistic. To watch him shoot is like watching a machine.....total focus! A bit awe inspiring! When our friends want to find out how good their latest acquisition is, they bring it to him. He'll wring it out and give it back...if it's good he'll say, "nice gun"....if not, he won't say anything.

So...we shall see. I hope I did the right thing. I will know, if he takes it to the range more than twice, that tells me he's happy with it!

Swampman · « **Reply #52 on:** November 28, 2012, 04:05:01 PM »

Quote from: SharonAnne on November 27, 2012, 04:08:26 PM

the US sniper with the most confirmed kills ever is a matter of public knowledge. The US sniper and the Canadian and UK snipers with the longest confirmed kills are a matter of public knowledge. Nothing the swampthing has done could compare.

I've never done anything according to public records. It will remain so...

pastorp · « **Reply #53 on:** November 28, 2012, 10:24:47 PM »

Interesting thread.

Regards,

Old Syko · « **Reply #54 on:** November 29, 2012, 01:03:43 AM »

Quote from: Cuts Crooked on November 28, 2012, 02:20:48 PM

My son is a demanding person when it comes to his firearms, you see.....he is a high functioning Autistic. To watch him shoot is like watching a machine.....total focus! A bit awe inspiring! When our friends want to find out how good their latest acquisition is, they bring it to him. He'll wring it out and give it back...if it's good he'll say, "nice gun"....if not, he won't say anything.

So...we shall see. I hope I did the right thing. I will know, if he takes it to the range more than twice, that tells me he's happy with it!

That's interesting. Automaton repeat-ability and patience to attain such is the hardest part of shooting to teach and to learn. To make each action identical is essential to many who are autistic yet I never thought of them as being good shooters. Thanks for telling this.

Swampman · « **Reply #55 on:** November 29, 2012, 11:42:19 AM »

I've not braged at all. After all there's nothing to brag about....right?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #56 on:** November 30, 2012, 02:04:15 AM »

funny thing is most anyone who can follow instructions and read specs. can buy and build a gun from select parts and expect a high degree of accuracy. I reality all AR's are built from parts and are therefore parts guns there is little if any handfitting nessary. That was at least part of the point of its type of construction. Often the names of different parts are all from the sams vendor. How many parts are made in house at Colt these days ? A good friend visited Colt and said alot of parts are shipped in .

Swampman · « **Reply #57 on:** November 30, 2012, 03:54:06 PM »

The Colt parts are mil-spec. Most AR parts are not.

SharonAnne · « **Reply #58 on:** November 30, 2012, 11:57:54 PM »

NYH1. It is very interesting. All of those guys are very modest. Some are funny. Miculek and Leatham are funny and personable and just fun to be around. At the USPSA Nationals/2000 IPSC Hemisphere shoot I had the good fortune to be squadded with Miculek, Kay Clark Miculek, Doni Johnson, July Goloski, Lisa Munson, 2 more Female World Champions and a couple of National Champions that my illness adled brain cannot remember now. It was the highlight of my shooting career. Since I was an unknown and a possible ringer they put me in the Womens Super Squad. By skill I did not belong there.

Jerry was shooting his S&W .45 revolver. When asked when he would reload he said "every time I move my left foot". Kay would race me to paste targets. It was a pleasure to shoot with top shooters. No egos, no messing around. They were very organized. We shot in the order of our names on the squad list and went down the list each taking their turn in going first.

When I went back in 2004 I was in a general squad. Oh my the egos. "I always go first", "I always go second", I always go last". They would hog the Safe Zone practicing their draws. Hey guys, if you haven't got it now it is too late.

The top shooters are great people to be around. Before I was ill/spine damaged, I shot about 3 matches a week. Just being able to watch so many top shooters at local ranges was great. I miss it.

SharonAnne · « **Reply #59 on:** December 01, 2012, 02:41:35 PM »

Cuts Crooked. I read your comments about your son being autistic. You and he are in my prayers. I know it can be very challenging. I loved the comment about "nice gun". I would hate to be the gun owner who had it handed back with no comment in front of my friends. Very embarrassing. Has he shot in competition or is the activity too much distraction?

I am VERY sure that he will shoot his Christmas present and say "nice gun". I believe it will be a favorite of his.