Minimum 357 load for deer hunting? (Chrono data added 12/2/12)

[mattri]

Just picked up a Blackhawk in 357 with the 6.5" barrel.  Plan to use it for whitetails out to 50 yards max. 

Starting to work up loads, see what it likes for bullets etc. 

Have been working with 158s, would 180s be better for hunting?

Using jacketed bullets like the Hornady XTP for now. 

There seems to be some debate as to whether hollow points are better/worse than flatnose bullets for hunting, thoughts?

What would be a minimum mv for an ethical hunting load with 158s, with 180s? 

Obviously an accurate load is as important, but don't want to go out with an underpowered load. 

Thanks, Matt. 

[Aver]

We use the 158 grain XTP bullets in our .357s.  No deer has gone more than 30 yards once hit. 

[ftw]

A well placed shot with the 158 should work well, I always used the 180's though.


I loaded a bunch for a friend and me as he had a deer tracking dog and often the end of the trail would be a deer presumed dead but still on it's feet.


We finished off probably 6 or 8 deer and they all went down on the spot. Most shots were inside 30 yards or so.


I have never purposely just hunted with a .357 as I have other calibers I use but no doubt if you limit yourself to your effective range and wait on a good shot you will do well.


Good luck!

[cwlongshot]

I found the 180s did not pen as well or as wide as a 158hp's from a hand gun.

In my revolver I actually prefer a hot loaded 140g. I always got thru and thru penetration and large exit holes.

In my Lever I have shot 2-3 with the 158 HP and changed to SP. With a HP, I got huge entrance holes and occasional exits. While the SP acted just like a big game bullet. I have also use a could 180g Black Tallons in the carbine. These work pretty well, but exit holes are dome sized instead of almost a quarter from the 158's...

Now I use the 140's in my 8"revolver. 158 XTP FP's in my Marlin lever and save the 180's for my Maxi!!

CW

[mattri]

Thanks for the replies. 

Aver- were you using the XTP hps of flatnose?

cwlongshot- which 140s are you using?

[cwlongshot]

Thanks for the replies. 

Aver- were you using the XTP hps of flatnose?

cwlongshot- which 140s are you using?

I have (had) been using Speer 140HP bullets. But these are not avalible anylonger, so I switched to XTP HP bullets.

CW

[Mikey]

One of the best 357 loads for revolvers uses the old Keith style 158 gn, or his 168 gn semi-wadcutter over 2400 powder or Winchester 296/H110.  My preferred load for shorter barrels, 3.5" - 4" is a heavier 200 gn Keith style semi-wadcutter over 296 powder.  This load is a Winchester factory load at better than 1300'/sec, possibly less from shorter barrels, but that heavy for the bore slug penetrates better than other 357 loads I have used. 

For some reason the 180 gn swc (semi-wadcutter) does not seem to peform as well as either the 158, 168  or 200 gn slugs - dunno why but it just doesn't seem to; and is isn't pushed as fast as the heavier 200 gn slug can be pushed either. 

I don't know what size Whitetail you have in your neck of the woods but I wouldn't use hollow pointed bullets, a soft nose is better but a solid semi-wadcutter is better yet (imo), and the LBT designs work just as well with their wide flat points. 

I would opine that a minimum velocity for a 158 gn slug should be about 1250 - 1270'/sec, attainable with either Unique or 2400 powder.  WW296/H110 gets you beyond that even with a 200 gn slug.  If you want to try the heavier bullets they are available from either Colorado Cast Bullets or Mt. Baldy Bullets.  HTH.

[mattri]

Was able to get some rounds over the chronograph today. 

158gr Hornady XTP over 7gr of Unique shot 1080-110fps, accuracy was excellent, about an inch @ 25 yards.   

8gr shot at 1180-1220, accuracy was good but not as tight as the 7gr load, 1.5-2" 

[stevinator]

I don't reload 357 so I always used a 158 grain jacketed softpoint by winchester  and had good results,most of my shots were 40 yds and under from treestands that I archery hunted out of  also.

[pastorp]

Anybody remember Jerry Lester that used to post on here a few years ago? He probably had more experience hunting with a 357 mag than anyone else I know of. His preferred bullet for deer was the Remington 158 gr JSP.
I've never shot a deer with a 357. But I'd trust Jerry's opinion.

Regards,

[shot1]

This load comes right out of the Sierra manual as their hunting load for the 357 mag with a 6" barrel. 16.3 grs H110 with a 158 gr jacketed bullet. I use this load with either Speer Gold Dots or Hornady XTP HP's and if you put them in the vitals you have a dead deer. This is a max load and is powerful and very accurate in every pistol I have shot it in. Your loads with Unique are a bit light for my liking. Yes you can kill a deer with a 38 special if you place the bullet through the heart and hit no bone trying to get there but you will have to do some trail up work and many times you don't have a very good blood trail. The 357 mag is marginal as a deer killer out of a revolver so you need all the velocity you can get to get more bullet expansion and penetration. I have killed a lot of deer with pistols and speak from experience. I would leave the 180 gr bullets for closed breach guns like Contenders. I shoot the 180 XTP HP in my 10" Contender with 13.5 grs H110 and average 1250 fps and it does a good job on deer out to 100 yards but in a revolver you just can't get enough velocity with it for my liking.

[cwlongshot]

This load comes right out of the Sierra manual as their hunting load for the 357 mag with a 6" barrel. 16.3 grs H110 with a 158 gr jacketed bullet. I use this load with either Speer Gold Dots or Hornady XTP HP's and if you put them in the vitals you have a dead deer. This is a max load and is powerful and very accurate in every pistol I have shot it in. Your loads with Unique are a bit light for my liking. Yes you can kill a deer with a 38 special if you place the bullet through the heart and hit no bone trying to get there but you will have to do some trail up work and many times you don't have a very good blood trail. The 357 mag is marginal as a deer killer out of a revolver so you need all the velocity you can get to get more bullet expansion and penetration. I have killed a lot of deer with pistols and speak from experience. I would leave the 180 gr bullets for closed breach guns like Contenders. I shoot the 180 XTP HP in my 10" Contender with 13.5 grs H110 and average 1250 fps and it does a good job on deer out to 100 yards but in a revolver you just can't get enough velocity with it for my liking.

Here here!!  I agree, I have near a dozen with a 357 revolver and at least twice that from a carbine! Add the Maxi to the tally and its pushing 50 deer to base my opinions on. here in the NE we hunt at least three to four states and in CT we can shoot something like 13 deer per season. In some county's there is NO LIMIT!!

As a kid a family friend told me how great the little magnum was from his rechambered Winny '92.  I even watched him shoot one one day as a teen ager. From then on I had little doubt what this Cali ER would do at the woods ranges we hunt.

One day my pop grabbed my lil marlin when a small buck crossed the ridge above our camp. The deer was about 50 yards out, he mumbled something about peep sites and "boom" the rifle went off. He snaked that little buck right in the shoulder and the bullet exited the ribs on the off side. That was a 158 XTP FP @ near 2000... He too has allot more respect for the lil Maggie!

I cannot advise strongly enough avoid HP bullets in a carbine! BUT in a rev ESP a short barreled one OR if your not loading to top velocities. A HP may be adviseable.  I also like wide me play cast slugs but feel the 35 is still a bit small to get full effect from this excellent design.

CW

[cwlongshot]

Long time Member Fred M shot one with a 257 H&R!

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,268727.0/topicseen.html

Add him to the list!!

CW

[mattri]

When you guys talk about accuracy- what kind of groups at what kind of ranges are we talking? 
 
I'm thinking 3-4" at 50 yards should do it, thoughts? 

[cwlongshot]

When you guys talk about accuracy- what kind of groups at what kind of ranges are we talking? 
 
I'm thinking 3-4" at 50 yards should do it, thoughts?

Both of mine are good for under 2'' @ 100. 

[mattri]

Good shooting!  Offhand with iron sights I can barely manage that with a rifke, and on a good day! 

[mattri]

Interesting article in the 2012 Hodgdon Anual Reloading Manual on H110 loads in magnum revolvers. 

They shot three loads with 158gr Speers, 15, 15.9 and 16.9grs for 1136, 1187 and 1240fps respectively. 

That's within 50fps of what the Unique loads were shooting the other day, and nowhere near the 1591 fps Hodgdon lists for the 16.9gr loads. 

For those shooting over a chronograph, what are the actual numbers that you're seeing? 

Thanks, Matt.

[cwlongshot]

With 1500 fps that's a non vented barrel for sure!  I haven't seen loads much over 1300fps with a 158 bullet from a revolver. (Contender sure) Back in the day, late 1930's they advertised it at newrly 1500 and claimed it would shoot thru a engine block... Even the Maxi was in the 1500 range from a revolver. A 10" contender is quite a vel jump simply because its a non vented barrel.

Data gets mixed up all the time. That's why it's best to double or triple check all data! Maxi data in a carbine is the worst!!! The vels posted are all over the map!

CW

[Redhawk1]

When I first started hunting with a handgun 35 year ago, I used a blackhawk 357 Mag. I was told back then not to use hollow point bullets in my 357 Mag, I took that advice from long time deer hunter. I loaded up some 158 gr. JSP bullets and go a nice hot load that shot well in my gun. My first outing with the handgun produced a nice spike buck at 35 yards. Deer only went 20 yards a fell over. Small entrance hole in, and a large exit hole, took out both lungs. I also started using 158 gr. hard cast bullets, and had the same results on deer, one shot kills. Shot placement is key, and taking out both lungs works great.I am sure the Hornady hollow points of today are better than some of the older hollow point of 30 years ago, but I still won't use them. JSP or hard cast is what I have used with great success. I have also shot a few deer with 180 gr. hard cast bullets in my 357 Mag. No penetration issues at all, all pass through shots. With the 357 Mag, I keep my shots under 50 yards, not due to accuracy, but I want to make sure I get good penetration.

[mattri]

Redhawk1- what was the load you were using on the 158 JSPs?  Did you ever put it over a chronograph? 

[Redhawk1]

When I first started loading the 357 Mag  I was using 8.0 gr. of Unique. Today I am using 16.0 gr. of H110 with my JSP and hard cast 357 Mag bullets.  I don't get caught up in the chronograph. I use what the load data shows as a reference, and I go to the range, and see what the gun and load does a different ranges. According to load data that is in the 1400 plus fps range.
 
 

[mattri]

Thanks for the reply, so the 8gr Unique load was the one that was working well for deer?

[Mikey]

Jerry Lester, one of our members who has probably harvested more Whitetail than anyone I know, preferred the 158 gn Remington from his 6.5" bbl Blackhawk and the 125 gn slug from his 20" carbine/rifle.  I do not know how large the Whitetail were in his neck of the woods but I think the factory loads he used were more than adequate forhis purposes.
Winchester 296 and H110 are the same powder but Winchester does not advocate the use of less than maximum charges of that powder and advocates a tight crimp to allow for complete powder burning.  The Winchester factory load, which I do not have right at hand, chronographs at over 1400'/sec with the 158 gn bullet, more than adequate for Whitetail (imo).

[mattri]

Thanks for the reply. 

This is what I'm trying to sort out at the moment: 

"Everyone knows" that H110 (W296) is the go-to powder for magnum cartridges.  It gives the highest velocity for the most powerful hunting loads, 16.7grs for 1591 fps according to Hodgdon. 

Then Hodgdon publishes an article showing that they saw 1240 fps with a 158gr Hornady XTP over 16.7gr of H110 out of a 686 with a 6" barrel. 

I'm not trying to stir the pot or pick a fight but I'm wondering how many people have shot these "hot" loads over a chronograph.  Manufacturer's data is notoriously generous, how many people are seeing a measured 1500+ fps out of a 6" revolver? 

And at the same time, how many people have loaded up max charges of H110 and harvested deer with authority, thinking they were shooting 400fps faster than they were? 

[Mikey]

Most factory loadings are tested through pressure barrels with fixed chambers that act more like rifles rather than revolvers with cylinder to barrel gaps and the velocities attained by factory testings rarely match those from practical revolvers in the field.  Some of the older manuals, like the older Lyman manuals and Speer, I think, used the acutal firearms the loads were to be used in. 
I have used factory max loads in shorter barrelled revolvers - 3.5" and 4" 357s, and 4" 44 magnums to harvest Whitetail, Black Bear and hog.  In the 357 I prefer a 200 gn cast semi-wadcutter and a 300 gn bullet of the same style in the 44 magnum.  I seriously doubt my loads are/were traveling anywhere near the factory published velocities but they have penetrated t&t Whitetail sideways at 50 yds or so or have entered one side of the chest and busted through the shoulder on the other side and kept going.  Bear and hog shot through the chest fare the same. 
I have also used those loadings, in the old days, to shoot the 200 yd metallic silhouette matches and have seen my 200 yd targets get slammed down cleanly when hit, which is something I rarely saw with 158 gn 357s unless hit at the  top center of the target from a longer barrelled revolver.
As I mentioned, I seriously doubt these loads were moving anywhere near factory published velocities but the heavy for the bore bullets, in both calibers penetrate far better than anything lighter weight that is moving faster.  I have never recovered a 200 gn 357  or 300 gn 44 slug from any animal I have harvested. 
Someone once wrote that heavy for the bore 357 and 44 slugs do not need to move at maximum velocities to penetrate far better than lighter weight slugs and that has proven to be the norm for me, which is why I use them.  Some folk get along just fine with standard 158 gn 357 loads from 6" or better bbl revolvers but for my purposes, heavy for the bore slugs moving at moderate speeds work far better than other loads. 

[Redhawk1]

Well said Mikey!

[Squib]

each chamber on a revolver's cylinder can vary, same for the throats, then the forcing come and endshake can cause inconsistency and/or loss of performance, then the barrel to bullet seal.  with a looser bore, shakey cylinder, and oversized throats, (or just slightly undersized bullets) you lose quite a bit of pressure.  I bet a revolver that is at the max on specs vs one of the exact same make that is right on the bottom side of the specs would shoot a lot different.

I know that h-110 out of a ported four inch revolver I used to own did rediculous things with 125gr bullets that no other loads could come close to.  that thing tried to come out of my hands pretty regular, it was an event to watch someone else shoot it and see how high that muzzle went up in recoil.  I never chronographed it, but the fireball coming out the barrel, the muzzle blast, and the exploding melons convinced me.  If it didn't meet the advertised POTENTIAL then too bad, because it was still the best out there.  I've shot watermelons and canteloupes from 25yds with redline .45 colt and the effects weren't much different honestly.  My problem is a fear of gun abuse, h-110 will top anything else for sure, it's just a question of whether or not you're going to chew your gun up with it.... if you have a lot of expendable money to buy a new gun or two then go all out. 

[45-70.gov]

When you guys talk about accuracy- what kind of groups at what kind of ranges are we talking? 
 
I'm thinking 3-4" at 50 yards should do it, thoughts?

how  far can you CONSISTENTLY  put then in a paper plate


that would be 50 yds for me....today
that  distance  has been  100 yds....but  not this week


might  do 100yds   occasionally.....but not consistently


i certainly  wouldn't   look for a minimum load  as a 357  is already small
i search  for the most  power  that  i can  ''enjoy'' shooting  and won't wear out my gun
[not an issue for a blackhawk]
then shoot the ONE  load  and nothing  else
every shot with that gun from now on is practice for that one moment of truth
NO  MORE PLINKING WITH 38s  THEN HUNTING  WITH SOMETHING ELSE
know what you limits  are....on a bad day.....with you chosen load
because in  hunting  ..you won't know if your haveing a bag day or good day

[mattri]

A 3-4" paper plate?  You must eat tiny little meals!   
 
Sorry to not be clear re minimum loads, I was by no means trying to find a minimum load, but wanting to find what the minimum velocity/energy is, in order to be above that. 
 
For example, lets just say that with a 158gr jacketed bullet 1000 fps would be considered adequate for whitetails inside 50 yards.  That gives a baseline, when working up loads with different powders, charges etc you know not to bother with loads that don't deliver at least that level of performance.  Obviously more is better, but more than what?  Hence the need for a minimum, or baseline to measure against. 

[45-70.gov]

SORRY  I WASN'T CLEAR ABOUT MY  PLATE SIZE.......about 8 inch


i  dout  you will back  of due to blast or recoil  with your gun
the the point it will  not work


heavy bullets seen to minimize  blast   and the blackhawk  won't recoil much any way


blast  is more of an issue with 357mags than recoil......[except my LCR]