Author Topic: Remember The Maine signal Cannon (Read 5323 times)

de_lok · « **on:** November 19, 2012, 07:40:45 AM »

I am looking for historical information on the signal cannons made by W. S. Hawker mfg. Dayton, Ohio that were embossed "Remember the Maine" on the trail plates. (1) what years were they manufatured (2) how many variants were made (3) original colors, plating, (4) how many were produced, etc......
I have one that I am repairing/ restoring that I believe was made in 1904. It was dropped and one wheel shattered into several pieces, one trail cracked and the other broke in two pieces. This cannon was chrome plated but the plating is thin and flaking badly. I was told none of the originals were chrome plated by the manufacture. If they were originally painted that is how I will try to convince the owner go back with. The cast iron parts are to fragile to weld/braze so vat plating will be difficult. I will post pics of this project as I go. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

GGaskill · « **Reply #1 on:** November 19, 2012, 11:00:31 AM »

Cast iron (and especially century old cast iron) is fragile and the plating process probably made it even more brittle. You might consider heating it to 400° to drive out any entrained hydrogen. It might be possible to silver solder the pieces together which would be pretty strong but I am just guessing. I have TIG'd cast iron using silicon bronze filler (actually a brazing process) but your pieces are so small that I would be afraid of melting them even at low current.

armorer77 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 19, 2012, 01:20:27 PM »

Brownells sells a lo tomp silver solder , 450 degree . I am trying it now with good results so far .

Cannoneer · « **Reply #3 on:** November 19, 2012, 02:10:05 PM »

I don't know much about these guns, but I've seen quite a few variations/sizes, and some did have nickel plated barrels.

http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/54/lid/92

de_lok · « **Reply #4 on:** November 19, 2012, 02:28:48 PM »

G> I already ruled out tig and brazing, especially since it doesn't belong to me. armorer77> I use the low temp solder and aluminum on some applications but again as these pieces are so small decided against it. I have completed the broken wheel before this post. I drilled and tapped 6-32 in one end and locktite-(red) a setscrew in place making a tenon. Then I drilled and tapped a 10-32 hole in the joining piece and filled with black/red jb weld. I had to get all holes prepped, applied filler to all holes, then assemble with a jig. It now looks better than the one that wasn't broke. I plan to sweat fit a metal band around it to make it stronger and have the iron tire look. I wasn't sure how well chrome plating would work with jb-weld in the joints. I will post a pic of it painted later..............

de_lok · « **Reply #5 on:** November 19, 2012, 02:36:48 PM »

Quote from: Cannoneer on November 19, 2012, 02:10:05 PM

I don't know much about these guns, but I've seen quite a few variations/sizes, and some did have nickel plated barrels.

http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/54/lid/92

Thanks Cannoneer, the cannon listed in the link you posted was purchased by the same guy that owns the one I am working on. It is in his collection now. The one I am working on will be a display only piece when done, he has no plans to fire it.

GGaskill · « **Reply #6 on:** November 19, 2012, 10:12:33 PM »

... he has no plans to fire it.

Good. I was going to mention epoxy or super glue but was not sure they would withstand firing since you didn't say yea or nay on that before. Without any size info, I couldn't help any more but you have done the job without external help.

de_lok · « **Reply #7 on:** November 20, 2012, 05:28:33 AM »

Quote from: GGaskill on November 19, 2012, 10:12:33 PM

... he has no plans to fire it.

Good. I was going to mention epoxy or super glue but was not sure they would withstand firing since you didn't say yea or nay on that before. Without any size info, I couldn't help any more but you have done the job without external help.

The question I will hopefully get answered is wether they were plated by the mfg or years later by a collector. The guy that owns this one has owned (and owns) several of the originals, but doesn't have a lot of the details of it's history. The fact they are so fragile makes them rare ( most were probably trashed). The entire carriage weighs 4 lbs and the barrel just over 8 lbs. One drop and the carriage shatters to pieces. The originals sell from $1500 to $3000 now. The barrel exceeds the 1/3 rule, and should be safe (12 ga. blanks). The main reason the owner will not fire it is because of its value. It will probably spend its time in a glass enclosure.

I have seen some pretty amazing "detective" work on various cannons here and hoped some of the membership could shed some light on this unique signal cannon.

After I complete the repair I plan to make silicone molds to make replica's, not planning to sell them, they are more for my own hobby use and for close friends as gifts. There is a bronze foundry nearby so making molds and tinkering with the lost wax process will be a first and hopefully fun project for me. Again, I appreciate the input from you guys..........

GGaskill · « **Reply #8 on:** November 20, 2012, 04:24:53 PM »

You seem to know a wide variety of things so this may not be new to you, but, when you make rubber moulds from existing parts, the eventually reproduced parts will be smaller because of shrinkage in both the wax patterns produced by the rubber moulds and in the final product because of shrinkage in the cast metal.

There is also a tendency for the reproduced parts to have lower surface quality, although I do not know why that is the case.

de_lok · « **Reply #9 on:** November 21, 2012, 05:03:09 AM »

Quote from: GGaskill on November 20, 2012, 04:24:53 PM

You seem to know a wide variety of things so this may not be new to you, but, when you make rubber moulds from existing parts, the eventually reproduced parts will be smaller because of shrinkage in both the wax patterns produced by the rubber moulds and in the final product because of shrinkage in the cast metal.

There is also a tendency for the reproduced parts to have lower surface quality, although I do not know why that is the case.

G, this will be my first time to actually "hands on" do silicone molds, and Im sure mistakes will be made, part of the learning curve

. I calculate .5% shrinkage for the mold and 1% for the metal. The local foundry owner went over these points a couple months ago and the best solution is to make two sets of molds. Step 1: use the original parts for patterns to make the silicone mold, then instead of using wax use alminum filled resin for "masters". Step 2: The resin patterns are then made larger (with modeling clay, resin, bondo,etc...) to account for shrinkage Step 3: make new silicone molds for foundry ready wax parts. The tuff part is using $200 dollars worth of silicone for a one time use!

Doing two steps for patterns will give me better control of surface finish, and the foundry I use does excellant work. http://www.lugarfoundry.com/
I plan to add some mass to the wheels and trails. I want to add as much as I can without affecting the original design. Just going from cast iron to silicon bronze will make them less likely to break, but there are some parts of this cannon that will need to be made better, it was not a well engineered design.

GGaskill · « **Reply #10 on:** November 21, 2012, 09:21:22 AM »

One thing you could do to the original to really strengthen the wheels would be to double the number of spokes. It certainly would look different but it would be more drop resistant.

de_lok · « **Reply #11 on:** November 26, 2012, 05:33:14 PM »

A pic of the repaired hammer and wheels(also a pic of the hammer before repair). The wheel on the right was broken into several pieces, the one on the left was stripped and painted. I plan to make iron tires (.430 wide x 3/32 thick) for the wheels. I purchased some solder and flux for metal and will try to repair the trail plates with that.

de_lok · « **Reply #12 on:** November 29, 2012, 05:29:47 PM »

Quote from: armorer77 on November 19, 2012, 01:20:27 PM

Brownells sells a lo tomp silver solder , 450 degree . I am trying it now with good results so far .

I tried a low temp (500 degree) acid core for metal solder with good results. It may not be as strong as Tig, brazing, or higher temp silver solder, but it is definately a step above JB Weld! Here are a couple pics of it before and after the "weld". I did drill a couple holes and v-grooved the crack for filler material. I did the rough filing but still need to do the finish work.

de_lok · « **Reply #13 on:** November 30, 2012, 06:52:54 PM »

Here are some pictures of other WS Hawker Remember the Maine cannons. I'm not so sure a couple of them are not reproductions. The one in this post and the rusty one (003) are definitely originals as I have had both in my possesion in the past, the other two have dimensional and metallurgical variances that make me believe they are reproductions. The ones I believe to be repros are actually better made than the originals.

de_lok · « **Reply #14 on:** December 06, 2012, 12:13:40 PM »

One side took to solder really nice, but the othe side didn't co-operate so easily. I took it to the local Prop Shop that specializes in propeller repair and had it Tig'ed. Turned out good. It did pop and crack loose in a couple spots but the guy doing the welding was " a goodun" and was patient with it and finished it with no cracks. He was so facinated about my "cannon" project he let me out the door with no charge!

cool..........

Allignment jig

Tig weld inside

QC Dept.............

Outside tig weld

de_lok · « **Reply #15 on:** December 07, 2012, 07:13:38 PM »

A couple pics of the first grind of the weld. Next comes filler then paint.............

After gringing weld

After grinding weld

de_lok · « **Reply #16 on:** December 22, 2012, 06:04:12 AM »

A few update pics showing the cannon and parts fitting back togather after welding and repairs. It was not only broken but badly warped also. I have managed to put it back togather without any noticeable warpage. I have an axle to build and paint/finish left to do.................

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #17 on:** December 22, 2012, 06:44:41 AM »

It's looking really nice. A piece of true Americana like that deserves a fine restoration. Repairing things is becoming a lost art. You certainly do it very well and we are constantly repairing something on our Bridgeport Series I, (1965), but few people seem to bother these days. "My Father's Axe" illustrates the way things used to be. A fellow asked, "Is that a new axe?" I replied, "No, I have replaced the head and six handles over the years, but it's still my father's axe."

Tracy

de_lok · « **Reply #18 on:** December 22, 2012, 09:47:09 AM »

Quote from: seacoastartillery on December 22, 2012, 06:44:41 AM

It's looking really nice. A piece of true Americana like that deserves a fine restoration. Repairing things is becoming a lost art. You certainly do it very well and we are constantly repairing something on our Bridgeport Series I, (1965), but few people seem to bother these days. "My Father's Axe" illustrates the way things used to be. A fellow asked, "Is that a new axe?" I replied, "No, I have replaced the head and six handles over the years, but it's still my father's axe."

Tracy

Since I was forced into disability retirement three years ago (at age 46 with neurotoxicity as a result of chemical exposure

) I have time to do a project like this. I would never be able to do this otherwise. There are times I have to give this project a break and focus on my health as I still have some "bad" days

, (mostly affecting motor skills and strength) as I recover and I won't allow myself to work on it while going thru this( I tare up more than I fix!). The good news is I usually have more "good" days than "bad"

.
I believe the reason these cannons are so rare now is the fact they were so easily broken, and then discarded instead of repaired. If only someone would have taken the time to repair them! I get a great deal of satisfaction bringing back to life a piece like this. I first witnessed true craftsmanship as a teenager when my dad restored body panels,fenders,and footboards for an antique car. He did this with a torch, lead filler sticks, and hammers. When he was done they looked flawless. I am not charging the owner for the repair, I only ask him to cover shipping both ways and material/supplies. This project was ment more to challenge myself and build confidence as I slowly recover. I am making molds to replicate this cannon, so I will be able to have one of my own

. Ohh, I have my fathers hatchet I played with as a kid, A future project indeed..........................

Artilleryman · « **Reply #19 on:** December 22, 2012, 02:56:51 PM »

Excellent work! Hope you have more and more good days.

de_lok · « **Reply #20 on:** December 31, 2012, 01:42:17 PM »

Started painting the trail plates and USA plate. The owner wants the raised letters to "stay shiny" so I will polish them as best I can. Here is a picture of the entire disassembled cannon as it is today 12-31-12. There is still some work to do yet but its getting close to being finished. The left plate (bottom pic) is the one that was tig welded.

de_lok · « **Reply #21 on:** January 04, 2013, 06:28:42 AM »

Here is a pic of it assembled. I still have a lot of polishing to do on the barrel and trim. I also have to make an axle and hammer spring. Spring making is something I'm not familiar with, so I ordered extra spring wire!

GGaskill · « **Reply #22 on:** January 04, 2013, 12:56:11 PM »

Read Making Springs on the Small Lathe. I have done a number of springs using his techniques to my satisfaction.

de_lok · « **Reply #23 on:** January 04, 2013, 07:48:13 PM »

Quote from: GGaskill on January 04, 2013, 12:56:11 PM

Read Making Springs on the Small Lathe. I have done a number of springs using his techniques to my satisfaction.

Thanks G, good read, just what I needed. I have everything I need in tooling and my spring wire came in yesterday. His suggestion to make duplicates incase one breaks after tempering was one easily overlooked and a real (potential) time saver (and less likelihood of swear words!

). I will try to photograph the process as I go along, but will probably be sidetracked with football the next few days!
ROLL TIDE ! ! ! ! and HOTTY TOTTY ! !

BoomLover · « **Reply #24 on:** January 04, 2013, 09:17:27 PM »

I had a good look at the finished job in the final picture...that is extremely nice! Probably about 5 times better than when this thing was new! Excellent find detail work...it all came together very well...BoomLover

de_lok · « **Reply #25 on:** January 10, 2013, 01:30:07 PM »

Just about finished with the new axle. The original didn't have an axle. The wheels were connected to the trail plates with 1/4 in dia pins that were (rivited) on the inside. This gives it a rigid axle and still maintain the original look.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #26 on:** January 13, 2013, 10:28:57 PM »

Quote from: de_lok on November 30, 2012, 06:52:54 PM

Here are some pictures of other WS Hawker Remember the Maine cannons. I'm not so sure a couple of them are not reproductions. The one in this post and the rusty one (003) are definitely originals as I have had both in my possesion in the past, the other two have dimensional and metallurgical variances that make me believe they are reproductions. The ones I believe to be repros are actually better made than the originals.

De_lok,
I'm fairly certain that the model seen in the second pic that you posted is a contemporary repro, at least as far as the barrel is concerned.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?topic=99298.0

RocklockI · « **Reply #27 on:** January 14, 2013, 06:27:05 AM »

de_lok
Very interesting ,I'm wondering what locks the breech closed ? It almost looks like it would eject and self cock on its own

?

Please take pics of your silicone molds and casting technique! GOOD LUCK !

I'm not sure why you want to make a master of aluminum powder and resin after you already made the silicon mold with the origanals ? But I have learned there are more than one way to make molds .

I've had issuses with hot wax not filling the mold very well ,no clue how a resin mix will work . I have photos of Dan Peterson's mold making technique which is what I use ,and would be happy to share. There is no way I could have done anything positive without his teaching .

I havn't heard from Dan in a while $:-\$ .

Good Luck
Gary

de_lok · « **Reply #28 on:** January 14, 2013, 09:53:26 AM »

Quote from: RocklockI on January 14, 2013, 06:27:05 AM

de_lok
Very interesting ,I'm wondering what locks the breech closed ? It almost looks like it would eject and self cock on its own ?

Please take pics of your silicone molds and casting technique! GOOD LUCK !

I'm not sure why you want to make a master of aluminum powder and resin after you already made the silicon mold with the origanals ? But I have learned there are more than one way to make molds .

I've had issuses with hot wax not filling the mold very well ,no clue how a resin mix will work . I have photos of Dan Peterson's mold making technique which is what I use ,and would be happy to share. There is no way I could have done anything positive without his teaching .

I havn't heard from Dan in a while $:-\$ .

Good Luck
Gary

The breech fits into lugs that are molded into the trail plates, it does actually lock up quite well.

I do plan to make a lot of pictures of the mold process. The reason for the (hard) aluminum filled resin masters is silicone molds are somewhat fragile. As soon as I get a set of parts from the molds I have to ship the original back home. I then have a reliable way to replace the silicone molds, they will be just as good as the original parts as patterns. The owner of this cannon has been very gracious to let me keep it as long as I have.

To better clarify your question this is an explanation of the steps.
1. use original parts to make silicone molds.
2. first run of parts are made of aluminum filled resin to be set aside as mold masters because
original parts will return home.
3. pour wax into molds for foundry patterns (lost wax)

I am making the new hammer spring now. I actually made one last night as a trial run and it turned out pretty dang good!

I will do a little more paint/polish work on it, assemble it and take a lot of pictures. I then plan to continue this thread with the mold process. My spring jig was a "slap stick" rig. I will make a better one and take pictures of it also.

Cannoneer: Thanks for the post and pics. As grainy as the trail plates are on that cannon it looks like original parts were used as patterns in tradition sand casting. It is my opinion that the entire cannon is a reproduction. It is also my opinion that reproductions of any kind should be clearly marked as such, date coded, mfg stamp, etc................

de_lok · « **Reply #29 on:** January 15, 2013, 07:24:25 PM »

Ok, got a spring wound tonight. You guys tell me what you think! This was done on a simple jig made from stuff in the "scrap box". Really easy to do. Yes I will post pics of the jig in a day or so...........

. Thanks again G for the link. I will "heat treat" it tommorrow.

Dewayne