Author Topic: 8x57 Mauser - What Powder? (Read 1470 times)

RaySendero · « **on:** February 12, 2004, 03:00:22 AM »

I've reloaded for many years. Got a set of 8x57 dies and 50 new cases coming and need advice on which powder(s) to try. Getting the right powder at first can save alot of time working up loads.

My rifle is an old 1939 VZ-24 Mauser - Shoots good; Head space is fine; Bolt face is unblemished. I plan to load 185 and 200 grain bullets. Most of the published data is limited to 36,000 CUPs. My plan is to start there but work slowly up toward a more reasonable pressure limit.

Any help getting started would be greatly appreciated.

ricciardelli · « **Reply #1 on:** February 12, 2004, 07:46:53 AM »

http://stevespages.com/323_9.html

Mikey · « **Reply #2 on:** February 12, 2004, 10:30:41 AM »

Ray: Steve's pages will have a lot of great information for you. In addition, I would recommend a VihtaVhouryOy Reloading manual and powders. Those folk load to original specs and their data is safe. I have use their data and powders and feel that if you are going to shoot a European caliber you should go with their data. HTH. Mikey.

RaySendero · « **Reply #3 on:** February 13, 2004, 05:39:05 PM »

Thanks Guys - Stevespages are great info as was the Vihtavuori download.

Jose Grande · « **Reply #4 on:** February 13, 2004, 07:34:11 PM »

I have a beautiful Turk. A 1938, 98 in 8MM. I use 46gr. of IMR 4895 with a 180 Remmie Core-Lokt. Great groups & hard hitting. Good luck with your rifle. Ain't these old guns great

??

RaySendero · « **Reply #5 on:** February 14, 2004, 06:12:27 AM »

Quote from: jose grande

I have a beautiful Turk. A 1938, 98 in 8MM. I use 46gr. of IMR 4895 with a 180 Remmie Core-Lokt. Great groups & hard hitting. Good luck with your rifle. Ain't these old guns great ??

I'm finding that these guns are great! I got my first Mauser about a month ago. It wasn't very pretty - An old 1939 VZ-24. My plan was to completely rebuild and rebarrel the gun. But the more and more I read of the 8x57 the more impressed I was with its performance! So I decided to see if the original barrel would shoot. Here's a link to the very first target using 1948 Military Ball ammo = 4 Shots at 50 yds.

The original sights were terrible which I believe opened up the group. But I was encouraged enough to pursue leaving it as 8mm. I've since sporterize, stained and refinished the stock. Also cleaned the action and trigger - Trigger was bad dirty/gummy! Cold blued both. Then glass bedded the barrel action back into the stock. Also polished the bore, throat and chamber. Next, my plans are to add a scout scope. Hope to have a good deer/hog rifle ready by next fall.

RaySendero · « **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2004, 02:26:15 PM »

btt...

huntsman · « **Reply #7 on:** February 22, 2004, 06:42:32 AM »

For what it's worth, I just shot some test loads for the 8mm mauser yesterday. I am using IMR 4064 powder and a sporterized K98 with a 4x scope. Here are the results with the two bullets I loaded. I was trying to load the 150 grain in the same neighborhood as a .30-.30 and the 185 grain from mild to medium velocity. The 185 grain did not show any signs of excess pressure at the top end, so I can probably take it a little higher to get my "big game" load. Velocities are estimated based on published data, as I don't have a chronograph. Hope this is some help to you.

Data for 8x57 Mauser handloads with IMR 4064

Test rifle: sporterized K98 with 24 barrel; 4x scope.

150 grain Sierra SP
Charge Est vel Grp diam (in)   Grp mean dist. (in)
40.0   2150   2.5   1.33
41.0   2210   1.75   1.04
42.0   2270   2.75   >2
43.0   2330   1.75   0.86
44.0   2390   3.75   >2
45.0   2450   2.0   1.16

185 grain Remington core-lokt PSP
Charge    Est vel. Grp diam (in) Grp mean dist. (in)
38.0   2050   3.5   >2
39.0   2107   2.5   1.38
40.0   2163   2.25   1.66
41.0   2219   1.75   1.25
42.0   2276   3.0   >2
43.0   2332   3.75   >2
44.0   2388   4.25   >2
45.0   2445   2.0   1.54
46.0   2501   5.5   >2

Sorry about the data being "scrunched" together; it didn't convert from a Word table very well.

RaySendero · « **Reply #8 on:** February 27, 2004, 05:29:11 PM »

I familiar with group measurements of center to center extreme spread but not familiar with:

Grp diam (in) and
Grp mean dist. (in)

Please tell me about these measurements.

ricciardelli · « **Reply #9 on:** February 29, 2004, 05:56:00 AM »

GROUP SIZE ANALYSIS METHODS

(Maximum Spread)
The Maximum Spread (also called group diameter or extreme spread) is simply the distance between the centers of the two most widely dispersed shots in a group. This is the most common method used to describe group size because it is the easiest measurement to take. Unfortunately it only considers two shots in the result so an otherwise tight group of 10 shots with one "flyer" can produce results similar to a widely dispersed two shot group. For bench rest shooters who are capable of putting five shots in one hole it is a valid measure; but for the rest of us, or for handgun shooting it does not provide a "statistically significant" number for comparing targets.

(String Measurement)
This is an old method still used to determine a shooter's skill at hitting a target. It assumes the point of aim is always the desired point of impact and is simply the sum of the distances from the point of aim to each bullet hole. Originally a string was used to gather the distances, hence the name. It is still a valid measure of total error relative to the aim point. String Measurements however cannot be used to analyze sight settings because it only measures the magnitude of error, not the direction of error. It is also not a useful measure of group size because a tight group located away from the Bullseye will produce a large String Measurement.

(Average Group Radius)
The average of the distances from the statistical group center (not the aim point) to each shot is the Average Group Radius. It accurately reflects how far a typical shot will impact from the aim point with a well sighted arm. This measure is the best indicator of group size or firearm performance because flyers have less impact on the result so it provides a "statistically significant" number for comparing a series of targets or groups. Unfortunately it is difficult to calculate manually. Unlike a String Measurement, the Average Group Radius does not assume the point of aim is the desired impact point, so sighting error is not a factor in the result. Average Group Radius can therefore be used to compare group sizes when the impact point is intentionally high (rifle sighted for maximum point blank range and shooting dead center). It is also the best measure for evaluating the overall accuracy of loads. Magazine articles using Average Group Radius indicate the writer has taken care to provide readers with statistically significant data, but you should be careful not to compare it to the more common Maximum Spread.

ERROR ANALYSIS METHODS

(Vertical and Horizontal Spread)

The Horizontal and Vertical Spread of a group is simply the greatest distance between shots on the vertical or horizontal plane. This contrasts with the Maximum Spread which can be at any angle across the group. This measurement is understood by most shooters, easy to make, and can be used to help detect load and mechanical problems or "pulling" by the shooter. If the Vertical or Horizontal Spread is significantly larger and shots are well dispersed, it is called "stringing". A cross wind will obviously disperse shots horizontally. Vertical stringing may be caused by irregular powder charges and detonation problems (inconsistent ignition due to variations in primer pocket depth or primer thickness). Improper crimping, bullet inconsistencies or other loading problems usually result in larger overall group sizes, and not "stringing" in any particular direction. A loose gun sight, or broken scope may also cause stringing.

(Average Vertical and Horizontal Error)

The Average Horizontal and Vertical Error is the average of errors on the Vertical and Horizontal plane from the group's statistical center. This is a much better measure for detecting errors than Vert./Hor. Spread because the shot data is averaged to reduce the influence of "flyers". If the goal is to track "pulling" by the shooter over time or to isolate problems, then the Average Vertical & Horizontal Error is a better measurement for comparing a series of targets.

(Maximum Shot Radius)

The Maximum Shot Radius (or maximum group radius) is the distance from a group's statistical center to the center of the most distant hole. It really only indicates how far from the group center the worst shot should fall and is not a good indicator of overall performance. On a target where shots are evenly dispersed, this measurement will be about 1/2 the Maximum Spread and larger than the Average Group Radius. It is best used to quantify the worst shot in a series of targets.

(Maximum Shot Radius Compared To Average Group Radius)
The Maximum Shot Radius should be only slightly larger than the Average Group Radius. A big difference between these measures is another indication of shooter error or a bad load.

(Average Elevation and Windage Error)
The Average Elevation and Windage Errors compare a group's statistical center to the point of aim. It accurately indicates where the group center is located (or average shot impacted) with a set of vertical and horizontal dimensions. The two measurements show how well the firearm is sighted to hit the Bullseye and can be used to adjust sights if the results are converted to Minutes of Angle.

RaySendero · « **Reply #10 on:** March 07, 2004, 11:41:24 AM »

Wow! Thanks for taking the time to write all that up. First I figured I'd commit it to memory - Then decided to copy it to a Word document rather than use up all that brain storage. :mrgreen:

Thanks Again

RaySendero · « **Reply #11 on:** May 05, 2004, 05:16:32 PM »

OK Guys,

Thanks again to those that helped with load info. I've been working too much lately and for the times I've been able to get off - The range was closed to high powered rifles! Finally got out this weekend with my 8x57 reloads. So just now able to get back to ya.

They are all loaded in Win. new-resized cases and loaded with H-4831sc powder - More from convenience cause I already had a lot of it. Primers were CCI LR 200. I'll show group sizes but remember this was to check for any signs of high pressure not trying for accuracy yet. Shooting is 2 shot groups beginning with lowest powder charge and checking each shot for extraction and primer. Did NOT get any signs of high pressure at all! Range was 50 Yards using the VZ-24's iron sights set to 200 yds (low as it will go).

Legend: Bullet, Grains of Powder, 2 shot group size CTC, Vertical from POA

185 gr. Remtn. CoreLokt, 47.5 grains, 1.1", -1.5"
185 gr. Remtn. CoreLokt, 49.0 grains, 1.9", -1.0"
185 gr. Remtn. CoreLokt, 50.5 grains, 2.2", +1.7"
185 gr. Remtn. CoreLokt, 51.0 grains, 2.1", +1.5"
185 gr. Remtn. CoreLokt, 51.5 grains, 0.7", +2.7"

200 gr. Sierra MatchKing, 45.5 grains, 1.5", -3.5"
200 gr. Sierra MatchKing, 46.5 grains, 2.6", -3.5"
200 gr. Sierra MatchKing, 47.5 grains, 0.4", -2.1"
200 gr. Sierra MatchKing, 48.5 grains, 0.2", -0.4"
200 gr. Sierra MatchKing, 49.0 grains, 1.0", +0.4"

220 gr. Sierra GameKing, 44.0 grains, 0.5", -7.3"
220 gr. Sierra GameKing, 45.0 grains, 0.6", -6.6"
220 gr. Sierra GameKing, 46.0 grains, 0.5", -5.3"
220 gr. Sierra GameKing, 47.0 grains, 0.5", -4.9"
220 gr. Sierra GameKing, 47.5 grains, 0.2", -4.5"

Notice how point of impact with this rifle changes a lot with different bullets and powder charges! My 270 tends to put everything closer to the same point even at twice that distance!?

Snowshoe · « **Reply #12 on:** May 06, 2004, 05:00:44 PM »

I have a 1938 Turkish Mauser with 3-9x40 scope, and have done some load work with 150's, 170's and 195g bullets. This is some of the results.
150g---49g's of IMR4064---1 1/2" group
170g---48g's Varget---1" group----2475 fps
170g---49 1/2g IMR4064---1 1/2" group---2630 fps
195g---46 IMR4064---3 1/2" group---2380 fps
195g---48g IMR4064 2" group---2520 fps
All bullets are Hornady, and I plan on working with the 195g bullets a little more now that it has warmed up. I have had no sign of preasure in any of the loads, except for the preasure on my shoulder when shooting the 195's.