Author Topic: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low  (Read 13356 times)

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Offline scootrd

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #240 on: December 27, 2012, 05:27:53 AM »

Says it all right here -

http://www.ctj.org/corporatetaxdodgers/CorporateTaxDodgersReport.pdf

Bottom line until true tax reform happens , Little guy is always going to get the shaft.
Thats ok it will soon implode . The true Job creators (middle class) will have no $$ left in
pockets to buy any companies products and corps will begin to fold.

 
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #241 on: December 28, 2012, 04:52:12 AM »
if nothing else the last 9 pages prove brain washing is working. First no matter what people believe citizens pay the taxes . They either pay it in cost of products or as direct tax to them. Yes if you don't buy the products yoiu don't pay the tax . But if enough tax is not collected the tax rates rise. Second Americans pay enough tax IT"S THE SPENDING THAT IS OUT OF CONTROL. Third the people who recieve govt. help will always vote democratic because the republicans talk about cutting programs and this puts fear in these people. Don't expect them to give up what they are getting it won't happen. Fourth our govt. needs to suppend alot of spending in other countries .
      The idea of causing the workers , the rich and the wealfare crowd to fight each other needs to stop as it will damage America far more than anything else.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline scootrd

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #242 on: December 28, 2012, 05:14:13 AM »
Yes if you don't buy the products yoiu don't pay the tax . But if enough tax is not collected the tax rates rise.

exactly , and corps have been avoiding taxes for years... so middle guy has continued to have to to pick up the gap. They have no one to blame but themselves. Middle class well is dry. Cannot squeeze any more from them , though some under impression they should continue to try.  Keep squeezing and middle class will have no $$ to purchase products. All the tax avoidance in the world wont help them .  The middle class are the true Job creators. Without them able to spend, corps will fold.

The answer is honest and fair Tax reform.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #243 on: December 28, 2012, 05:16:39 AM »
healthy economy is not govt. spending but citizens spending and investing .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline jhm

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #244 on: December 28, 2012, 05:41:05 AM »
     People who do you think pays the Corporations taxes?  Do you really believe that their is a pot of money just sitting in the Corp. office waiting for TAX TIME ?   The CONSUMER  always pays the taxes, if the taxes are increased on a business they just raise the price of their product to cover the increase, thats just business if they dont they close the doors and thats where this country is at now,  Jim

Offline scootrd

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #245 on: December 28, 2012, 07:28:10 AM »
     People who do you think pays the Corporations taxes?  Do you really believe that their is a pot of money just sitting in the Corp. office waiting for TAX TIME ?   The CONSUMER  always pays the taxes, if the taxes are increased on a business they just raise the price of their product to cover the increase, thats just business if they dont they close the doors and thats where this country is at now,  Jim

Thomas Jefferson spoke on this many times. Your comment is only true to a certain extent.  Companies need to produce a good product , price it fairly in the market place . and recoup tax from consumers who purchase. Sure the middle class pays a tax portion through the product purchased, however if a product is priced too high it sits on shelf.  Jefferson believed a fair tax on business (not an individual tax was appropriate). If a corporation could not produce a product at a fair market price that consumers would puchase then the business should fold.

"The simplest system of taxation yet adopted is that of levying on the land and the laborer. But it would be better to levy the same sums on the produce of that labor when collected in the barn of the farmer; because then if through the badness of the year he made little, he would pay little. It would be better yet to levy it only on the surplus of this produce above his own wants. It would be better, too, to levy it, not in his hands, but in those of the purchaser; because though the farmer would in fact pay it, as the purchaser must deduct it from the original price of his produce yet the farmer would not be sensible that he paid it... What a comfort to the farmer to be allowed to supply his own wants before he should be liable to pay anything, and then to pay only out of his surplus." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison.

Your comment does not get to the heart of the matter which is  -  blatant corporate tax avoidance taking place today. They outsource labor to increase profit (not to make a better product). They  avoid paying taxes owed., screw the American employees out of a livable wage and leave the U.S. taxpayer holding the bag.   I have ZERO sympathy for corporations who do not play by the rules.  Additionally THOSE THAT DO NOT only hurt  other corps that do trying to compete in same sectors.

Retribution is coming. Canada , England , Ireland,  Germany , Belgium and others are starting to go after corps that are avoiding taxes. Time the U.S. climbs on board as well and starts prosecuting and putting more BITE in our tax laws.
Globally all countries are catching on.

True Tax reform is the answer.

If we want economic prospairity we should reward companies like Masterlock who are willing to bring manufacturing back to U.S. from China and tariff heavily on imports those that continue to outsource overseas only to increase profits and avoid paying taxes.

Bring back "Made in America" and make it mean something.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline jhm

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #246 on: December 28, 2012, 09:30:21 AM »
     My whole point was as the Government keeps raising taxes on a Corp. the Corp. is going to raise the cost of their product to cover the GOVERNMENTS greed,  Nothing was said about avoiding the taxes it has to pay, we understand that when the tax is avoided thats a different story.  Jim

Offline ironglow

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #247 on: December 28, 2012, 12:54:59 PM »
It is indeed amazing how the liberals have not even the most rudimentary idea of what Corporations are and how they are supposed to work.  I say "supposed to work", because lefty governments also cannot seem to comprehend the nature of a corporation and keep trying to cripple this, the lifeblood of our capitalist country.
  As Romney put it so succinctly;  "corporations are people"..yes, they are individuals who invest in entities which produce.  It is money which they invest...hoping to get a return.  Their return is all monies after operating expenses..in other words, what remains..the corporation's net.  If the stockholder gets a return, he/she pays taxes on it.  If taxes are levied upon the corporation..they are added as operating expenses..
    For instance, if a corp charges 40 cents for a brick and govt tax adds up to 2 cents..then the builder pays 42 cents for the brick..which adds just that much to the price of the house.. same goes for a bolt, can of paint or box of cheerios.  Not TOO hard to understand, right?
  Who are these stockholders?  Some are wealthy.... but most are hourly workers, construction workers, union members, teachers, veterinarians, housewives and almost anyone you can mention.  Anyone with an IRA account or 401K plan is likely a multiple stockholder..pretty simple huh?
       ....And they all will pay taxes upon what they are eligible for..
 
  The really surprising thing is that so many believed the ENVY line Obama dished out!  They also fell for his other "divide and conquer" schemes..women vs men, poor vs rich, black vs white, young vs older, gay vs normal, OWS vs Tea Party..on and on ..ad nauseum..
 
   It's  and old game... but it still works on the most gullible..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #248 on: December 28, 2012, 01:11:38 PM »
So, if all these corporations are stashing the money overseas, what it boils down to is that their stock market gains are nothing but lies. They are lying to their stockholders, since if the stockholders sell at a profit, and bring that money back to the states, that dodged tax will have to be paid, and it will be paid by the shareholders. That is what the right gets for supporting Wall Street bankers. If the stories in the bible are accurate, Jesus only ever struck one kind of people--- bankers. Capitalists can only be trusted to do what the laws force them to do, and they WILL do whatever those laws ALLOW them to do.


Want to see what kind of country allowing the corporations would have you living in? Look at China. Look at Russia before the Oktober Revolution. Look at France before the French Revolution.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline ironglow

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #249 on: December 29, 2012, 01:45:21 AM »
So, if all these corporations are stashing the money overseas, what it boils down to is that their stock market gains are nothing but lies.
     Again, you just don't understand..these monies are set aside for expansion and development as soon as the economy gives a clue as to where it is heading..It is offshore to avoid the exorbitant Obamataxes.
 
   They are lying to their stockholders, since if the stockholders sell at a profit, and bring that money back to the states, that dodged tax will have to be paid, and it will be paid by the shareholders. That is what the right gets for supporting Wall Street bankers. 
       Redux...you just don't get it!  If that money were clear profit, it obviously would have to be given to shareholders, and right, left or center they would pay taxes upon it..as expected.  THINK...If the major stockholders such as 401K funds for machinists or teachers believed they were being short changed..they would complain..
   
      If the stories in the bible are accurate, Jesus only ever struck one kind of people--- bankers. Capitalists can only be trusted to do what the laws force them to do, and they WILL do whatever those laws ALLOW them to do.  Again;  the Bible is accurate, but you're not!  You've come up factually short.  If He charged the bankers specifically..you better show..book, chapter and verse.  He did take the "lawyers" (Pharisees) to task, as well as the Scribes and Sadducees.
     He was also displeased with drunks, fornicators, sorcerers (dopers), adulterers, those who abuse children (abortionists), homosexuals, cheaters, unbelievers as well as greedy people.. you wouldn't know anyone like  that would you?


Want to see what kind of country allowing the corporations would have you living in? Look at China. Look at Russia before the Oktober Revolution. Look at France before the French Revolution. 
    Finally the truth starts to seep out, you hate what China & Russia were like before their revolutions..but apparently you have no qualms concerning the communism which replaced the former regimes.  Frankly I don't care for either..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #250 on: December 29, 2012, 01:55:21 AM »
They were never communists. The socialist systems they set up after the revolutions were in reaction to the capitalist abuses the people had suffered, except for China, which was a coup followed by a totalitarian government which called itself communist. Jesus only ever struck the moneylenders. All the rest is your opinion.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #251 on: December 30, 2012, 05:45:13 PM »
What the so-called right idealogues can't get:
.
a) what a Kelptocracy is and looks like.....
b) what a Corporatocracy is and looks like.....
c) and so, what Facism really is and looks like...
d) that taxing corps only taxes those proportionately that buy from that Corp, instead of shifting and spreading taxes among all citizens commie style...and this is what The Founder's had in mind.....
e) that the Ruling Class--TPTB don't really think like, behave, or have the same values the average so-called righty has....
f) that Jesus and The Colonial Patriots rebelled against the oppression/corruption of the 'corporations' of their day....
g) that just because something is 'legal' doesn't make it right or morally correct....
h) that so-called libbys want to tear down corps on account of having some ridiculous class envy syndrome they heard on Foxy... ::)
i) and who really profits and benefits from pertpetual war and contrived class struggle
j) that total wealth and influence disparity is the undoing of The Republic and Liberty and makes violent revolution inevitable....
k) or what it is actually like to live in a 3rd world country...
l) or what the difference is between finance capitalistic dominated economy vs production capitalistic economy
.
.
....TM7
Ok, how do you argue with the crazy?
Everything I have learned in Economics is opposite if what you just said.
Profit is good. It encourages inovation, it increases product options, it generates taxes, and it increases wages as the companies want to hire the best people and they will pay for it.
The problem we have is the Democrats and liberals do not like profit, they think we use too many natural resources and that they should be allowed to tell people what htye should buy or do with their money.
And of course a coperation that sees corrupt politicians that want to control thiongs as a good thing and will suppoort politicians that want to create rules and regulations that limit new entries into the market.
Look at the tax code that gives you a break on your taxes if you do this or that. Even if it makes no economic sense but to not pay taxes.
And then beat up the companies for using the tax loops? Remember the old gem of corperations don't pay taxes? It was said because the taxes are built into the price. But the fact is companies send billions and billions to washington and to the states in the form of taxes.
The Liberals are the ones that so far have been the ones willing to deal with CRONY- Capitalism and picking winners and products. They are the ones that stole dealer ships from the people that oppised them in the GM take over and the closing of dealerships. All the closed dealer ships were Republican supporters, if that does not sing of cronyism. And think of the attacks if it had been a Republican that had closed Democrat supporters dealerships and the calls for impeachment and the never ending tales of poverty on CNN, MSNBC, or in the NY Times.
Do you not understand that the concept of disposable income is what has built our economy and that creating more rules and regulations, higher taxes, and more fees only adds to costs that deminish disposable income and limits products limits purchasing power and increases unemployment.

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #252 on: December 30, 2012, 06:35:29 PM »
You are using facts to argue with feelings and emotion.
 
It just ain't fair that those who use their intelect have gotten ahead in life. On top of that some of those who are above average feel guilty for having done so. Not so guilty they are willing to give up all of their privledges, but enough so they are willing to give away others wealth.
 
Granted there are those who by no fault of there own are doomed to a life of poverty or near poverty. By circumstances of genetics (race does not count as a genetic flaw by the way), or tragedy they are unable to compete in a modern marketplace. Those people can and should be supported in a modern society. That level of support though is argueable. Means testing is a crappy humiliation test at best. Somewhere along the line though humility and gratitude has been replaced with an entitlement phylosophy, that burns my a$$.
 
 Confiscation of the fruits of my labor smacks of slavery. I am willing to support this society of which I am a part. I expect everyone to support this society as well, but support it equally among all. If you want to and are able to voluntarily contribute more God Bless You.
 
Greed and envy have no place in American society. There are plenty of countries where that tack has been tried and has failed ( or perhaps succeeded ), if that is your idea of nervana please go, go with my blessing and prosper there. I am happy here with the devil I know.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #253 on: December 30, 2012, 07:08:26 PM »
Yes,
I agree and still ask the question of when did the first amendment go from I have the right to say anything, to youhave to listen to me.
When did the old day dream of "if I had his money I would" go from a a wish to he has to use his money they way I want? , to he shopuld not have so much money and we need ot give it to others.
Robin hood stole from a corrupt government that over taxed the people to pay for their exorbatant life style.  The excessive taxes created povery even among the middle class of the time, and Robin hood fought for equality and  the ownership of personal property and self determination.
Greed is a subjective term.  Greed can be good.  The want to make more than you need can be seen as greed but that greed is what has spawned our whole economy.  Having more than you need allows you to sell items to others or trade for other items you want.
The first law of Economics is unlimited wants but limited means, the second law is something is only worth what someone is willing and able to pay.  As more is stolen from us in the form of taxes (remember that prices include taxes) the less we can consume and the fewer people are needed to make the limited goods. 

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #254 on: December 30, 2012, 07:42:51 PM »
Well I would say it started around the turn of the 20th century.
 
 As much as I admire Theodore Roosevelt and his contributions to conservation he was instrumental in forwarding some of the progressive agenda we see today. He walked a fine line between capitolism and progressivism. Trust busting, the coal industry, railroads, steel barrons the whole lot were by todays standards running roughshod over the entire country. By the standards of the day they were simply doing what was there duty, or at least what they thought was there duty, or at least right.
 
By todays standards they were way out of control ( remember the winners write the history books ). If you want a reasonable picture of the United States at the turn of the century look no further than todays China. There is a scary resemblance if you are honest with yourself. Look at the ecological disaster in todays China and then look at what the US looked like Pa. is a good example. NY city sweatshops, steelmills, and the resultant pollution denuding forests and polluting streams, market hunting decimating wildlife.

Ah, less tequela, and less philosophy. I may not read the previous ramblings again.
 
We look at our past and try to tell the Chinese they are wrong. They are, but at the same time they are hardly able to fix things until they can afford to. We had plenty of poor and poorly nourished of our own in the early 1900's. Just as a largely rural and barely industrialized US was unable to fix our ecological problems until the 1950's hell maybe even the 1970's when we had the cash reserves to spend, finaly, on cleaning up the mess we made dragging ourselves to the top of the world. It's pretty easy to scream do as I say not as I did.
 
I only pray I'm not going the way of the robber barron. As pittiful as my salary is I can ill afford to give my bit. I'm by no means rich, but I do not wish to remove the opportunity to become rich from my progeny. If the current administration gets there way, I fear the rich will stay that way and the middle income earner will be diminished, while the poor remain so.
**Concealed Carry...Because when seconds count help is only minutes away**

Offline jhm

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #255 on: December 31, 2012, 05:00:17 AM »
     MORE cut & paste BS.  Jim

Offline scootrd

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #256 on: December 31, 2012, 05:39:24 AM »
Ok, how do you argue with the crazy?
Profit is good. It encourages inovation, it increases product options, it generates taxes, and it increases wages as the companies want to hire the best people and they will pay for it.

True, Profit is good , but good for who? depends on how it is utilized. At present profit is being funneled out of U.S economy and sheltered overseas so corps do not pay appropriate taxes. When profit is used to reinvest back into market place either through expansion growth  etc it is good . when profit is used only to reward elite execs with golden parachutes insane bonuses, while employee wages are ever shrinking  - not so good.
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The problem we have is the Democrats and liberals do not like profit, they think we use too many natural resources and that they should be allowed to tell people what htye should buy or do with their money.

Not true , the problem dems  MOST AMERICANS want a level playing field with all entities pulling their own weight. Not the skewed tax code we have now. Corps are not contributing equitably . Why should American taxpayers subsidize multi billion dollar corporations while a vast majority who receive these subsidies circumvent their equitable share of the tax burden? How is that a free market?
Quote

And of course a coperation that sees corrupt politicians that want to control thiongs as a good thing and will suppoort politicians that want to create rules and regulations that limit new entries into the market.


If anything the last 10 years of deregulation should have taught the American people , you need common sense oversight and regulations. We have lived through what happens when we let the foxes watch the chicken coops. Too big too fail is a joke. When financial institutions make poor choices for their investors, why the hell should they be allowed to come to Washington hat in hand asking American people to bail them out?.
Look at the tax code that gives you a break on your taxes if you do this or that. Even if it makes no economic sense but to not pay taxes.
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And then beat up the companies for using the tax loops? Remember the old gem of corperations don't pay taxes? It was said because the taxes are built into the price. But the fact is companies send billions and billions to washington and to the states in the form of taxes.


Yep close all loopholes. Make a good product , folks will purchase , offer a crappy product , fall by the wayside. Is this not the American way? Fact is Corps are getting their cake and eating it too, and only a few are profiting. ie: PROFITS ALL TIME HIGH, WAGES ALL TIME LOW.  time for true tax reform.

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The Liberals are the ones that so far have been the ones willing to deal with CRONY- Capitalism and picking winners and products.

BS , The bush tax cuts were put in place to pick the winners and losers. 81% of the tax cuts reward the top 2 %.

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They are the ones that stole dealer ships from the people that oppised them in the GM take over and the closing of dealerships. All the closed dealer ships were Republican supporters, if that does not sing of cronyism. And think of the attacks if it had been a Republican that had closed Democrat supporters dealerships and the calls for impeachment and the never ending tales of poverty on CNN, MSNBC, or in the NY Times. Do you not understand that the concept of disposable income is what has built our economy and that creating more rules and regulations, higher taxes, and more fees only adds to costs that deminish disposable income and limits products limits purchasing power and increases unemployment.

Last I looked Detroit Auto industry  is on the rebound , thousands of jobs saved . big three turning profits and the loans were paid back with interest. As far as closing dealerships. GM MGMT made those tough decisions (not the govt) to restructure, become more streamlined, and function more streamlined and gain profitability. If private equity had bailed them out , they would have had to do the exact same thing. made no difference where initial bailout $$ originated from. As Romney said a manged bankruptcy is a managed bankruptcy.  The problem with the Romney approach is history supports , at the time of Auto industry collapse, there was no private equity available to lend.

Govt is not all evil. and history shows  -

Bailing out GM was the right thing to do. it not only saved auto industry but the whole supply chain jobs as well.

Bailing out financial institutions to save the arses of the elite ,(who by the way used that money to give themselves big bonuses and take lavish trips) was wrong. They are back doing exactly what got us into this mess in the first place like nothing ever happened.
____________________________________________________________________

Personally as painful as it might be I'm all for going over this fiscal "cliff" . I hope no deal is struck.  Let all bush tax cuts go by the wayside. Then they can come back to wahington in 2013 and pass meaningful Legislation and True tax reform, common sense regulation,  make Norquist irrelevant, and start working for "majority" of Americans again. .  IF not well then 2014 elections will help vote out obstructionists. Washington has forgotten their primary job is working for the people not corp lobbyists , special interests, and campaign fund raising.

Semper Fi
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #257 on: December 31, 2012, 09:04:28 AM »
Ok, how do you argue with the crazy?
Profit is good. It encourages inovation, it increases product options, it generates taxes, and it increases wages as the companies want to hire the best people and they will pay for it.

True, Profit is good , but good for who? depends on how it is utilized. At present profit is being funneled out of U.S economy and sheltered overseas so corps do not pay appropriate taxes. When profit is used to reinvest back into market place either through expansion growth  etc it is good . when profit is used only to reward elite execs with golden parachutes insane bonuses, while employee wages are ever shrinking  - not so good.  Wages are shrinking due to three things.  1) stagnent economy.  As there are not new companies opening creating jobs it is a buyers market.
2) Increased prices due to fees fines and taxes, as prices go up in order to keep prices low the only adjustable costs is the price of labor, either pay less or employ more people.
3) If you look at total payments for the labor including the hidden costs and benefits you have higher wages.  Wages + taxes (social security + Medicare + Obama Care) + benefits of 401K contributions.
You seem to only look at what goes into the workers pockets but not what comes out of the payroll department for each worker.  Think of the hidden taxes as rent for each worker from the government
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The problem we have is the Democrats and liberals do not like profit, they think we use too many natural resources and that they should be allowed to tell people what htye should buy or do with their money.

Not true , the problem dems  MOST AMERICANS want a level playing field with all entities pulling their own weight. Not the skewed tax code we have now. Corps are not contributing equitably . Why should American taxpayers subsidize multi billion dollar corporations while a vast majority who receive these subsidies circumvent their equitable share of the tax burden? How is that a free market?  I agree that the citizens should not pay to have very profitable companies do their work and make larger profits for the upper levels of managment like they do with the Movie and entertainment industry.  Oh wait that is a very left leaning industry, are we alloweed to take from Speilburg, and others that host Lefties in their million dollar homes?
Now as to the car and banks it makes sense that we bail them out as the government is the reason for thier failure with the rules and regulations.   
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And of course a coperation that sees corrupt politicians that want to control thiongs as a good thing and will suppoort politicians that want to create rules and regulations that limit new entries into the market.


If anything the last 10 years of deregulation should have taught the American people , you need common sense oversight and regulations. We have lived through what happens when we let the foxes watch the chicken coops. Too big too fail is a joke. When financial institutions make poor choices for their investors, why the hell should they be allowed to come to Washington hat in hand asking American people to bail them out?.
Look at the tax code that gives you a break on your taxes if you do this or that. Even if it makes no economic sense but to not pay taxes.
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And then beat up the companies for using the tax loops? Remember the old gem of corperations don't pay taxes? It was said because the taxes are built into the price. But the fact is companies send billions and billions to washington and to the states in the form of taxes.


Yep close all loopholes. Make a good product , folks will purchase , offer a crappy product , fall by the wayside. Is this not the American way? Fact is Corps are getting their cake and eating it too, and only a few are profiting. ie: PROFITS ALL TIME HIGH, WAGES ALL TIME LOW.  time for true tax reform.
Liberal congress will never let you have a flat tax rate that will not allow them to pay off their friends and to steer the economy and make you buy things that you would not normally do.

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The Liberals are the ones that so far have been the ones willing to deal with CRONY- Capitalism and picking winners and products.

BS , The bush tax cuts were put in place to pick the winners and losers. 81% of the tax cuts reward the top 2 %. How is dropping taxes on everyone that paid taxes bad?  How does that pick a winner and a looser by putting more money in your pocket?

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They are the ones that stole dealer ships from the people that oppised them in the GM take over and the closing of dealerships. All the closed dealer ships were Republican supporters, if that does not sing of cronyism. And think of the attacks if it had been a Republican that had closed Democrat supporters dealerships and the calls for impeachment and the never ending tales of poverty on CNN, MSNBC, or in the NY Times. Do you not understand that the concept of disposable income is what has built our economy and that creating more rules and regulations, higher taxes, and more fees only adds to costs that deminish disposable income and limits products limits purchasing power and increases unemployment.

Last I looked Detroit Auto industry  is on the rebound , thousands of jobs saved . big three turning profits and the loans were paid back with interest. As far as closing dealerships. GM MGMT made those tough decisions (not the govt) to restructure, become more streamlined, and function more streamlined and gain profitability. If private equity had bailed them out , they would have had to do the exact same thing. made no difference where initial bailout $$ originated from. As Romney said a manged bankruptcy is a managed bankruptcy.  The problem with the Romney approach is history supports , at the time of Auto industry collapse, there was no private equity available to lend.  You missed the point Obama when he had control of GM closed dealerships of his political opponets.  Sounds like an abuse of power to me.  And if GM is comming back why are there many volts still sitting on the lots and the lines have been closed.

Govt is not all evil. and history shows  -

Bailing out GM was the right thing to do. it not only saved auto industry but the whole supply chain jobs as well. 

Bailing out financial institutions to save the arses of the elite ,(who by the way used that money to give themselves big bonuses and take lavish trips) was wrong. They are back doing exactly what got us into this mess in the first place like nothing ever happened. Again problems with Barney Frank's bill that made banks loan money to people that were never going to repay it and caused the housing bubble and the financial fall.    Banks should be back to lending money based on your ability to repay the loan not what color you are.
____________________________________________________________________

Personally as painful as it might be I'm all for going over this fiscal "cliff" . I hope no deal is struck.  Let all bush tax cuts go by the wayside. Then they can come back to wahington in 2013 and pass meaningful Legislation and True tax reform, common sense regulation,  make Norquist irrelevant, and start working for "majority" of Americans again. .  IF not well then 2014 elections will help vote out obstructionists. Washington has forgotten their primary job is working for the people not corp lobbyists , special interests, and campaign fund raising. The problem we have is we have not had a budget for a while, we have three things happening all at once, 1 tax cuts expire, 2 spending cuts and the debt limit is being hit.
So with out the raising of the debt limit government will have to live on what is collected, increasing taxes will hurt the economy and cause a double dip recession and with out a budget we have a president that is spending and over spending on candy and not the things we need as a nation but will add platatudes like more teachers, more police, and more higher education. 

Semper Fi

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #258 on: January 01, 2013, 04:10:19 PM »
The 9 biggest tax and spending myths so-called conservatives base their economics are explained here........FYI....TM7
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AlterNet         
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            By Joshua Holland
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The 9 Biggest Conservative Lies About Taxes and Public Spending
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Here are the things the corporate media won't tell you about the tax-cut rhetoric in Washington.December 19, 2010  |      It’s difficult to know where to begin deconstructing conservative rhetoric on taxes and spending. It's such a central part of their worldview, and yet it's a view informed by a whole slew of falsehoods that have been repeated again and again during this year's debates over the Bush tax cuts, public spending and the deficit. What follows are nine of the biggest fact-free whoppers that conservatives insist are true.
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1. Cutting Taxes Leads to More Money for the Government Cutting taxes increases disposable income that enlarges the economy and generates more economic activity creating jobs and profits.  Expanding the GNP generating more tax dollars for not only the Federal Government but state and local givernments as well.
Conservatives can't say they oppose popular programs on ideological grounds, and they can't admit they're happy to run up huge budget deficits, so they've come up with the fiction that cutting taxes actually brings in more revenues to finance the public sector.
What's especially brazen about this is that it's usually preceded by debate-stifling phrases such as “as everyone knows,” “history shows us” or “every single time taxes have been cut.”
In 2007, Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, said, “Tax cuts, starting with Kennedy, as we all know, increase revenues”; Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson, R-Texas, claimed that “Every major tax cut we've had in history has created more revenue," and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-KY said earlier this year that the myth represented “the view of virtually every Republican on that subject."
It's also complete nonsense, and it's worth noting that only conservative politicians and pundits make the claim -- economists across the ideological spectrum agree that the argument is cursed by voodoo math.
As Time Magazine's Justin Fox noted in 2007, "Every economics Ph.D. who has worked in a prominent role in the Bush administration acknowledges that the tax cuts enacted during the past six years have not paid for themselves—and were never intended to.” Harvard professor Greg Mankiw, a former chairman of Bush’s Council of Economic Advisers, dedicated a whole section of his economics textbook to debunking the claim.
And in an opinion column in the Wall Street Journal responding to Bush's claim that "You cut taxes, and the tax revenues increase," Andrew Samwick, who served as chief economist on Bush’s Council of Economic Advisers, wrote, “You are smart people....You know that the tax cuts have not fueled record revenues... You know that the first order effect of cutting taxes is to lower tax revenues.”
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2. Conservatives' Favorite Economist Proves the Point Was never in any of my text books fairy tales.
As I note in my book, The Fifteen Biggest Lies About the Economy, that falsehood is based in large part on an abuse of “Laffer’s curve,” the conservative media’s favorite economic theorem. The idea, first scribbled on a cocktail napkin by economist Arthur Laffer (according to lore), is pretty simple. It holds that you can raise income taxes to a degree, but when the top tax rate exceeds a certain point, people will go to such extraordinary lengths to avoid paying the piper that the government will actually end up collecting less revenue.
When Dylan Matthews asked a number of experts where the Laffer Curve “bends” for the Washington Post, the economists (he asked some conservative opinion columnists as well) all agreed that a top rate of 50 percent – several went as high as 70 percent – would still fall below the curve. That's important to keep in mind as we debate the merits of letting the top rate return to the 39 percent that prevailed during the Clinton years.
Each time taxes have been cut in the past few decades, it's led to a drop in revenues, which is why people like McCain like to go back to the Kennedy era, when cutting the top rate did spur growth and bring more money into the government's coffers. What they don't mention is that Kennedy cut the top rate from 91 percent to 70 percent, which has no bearing on the debate we're having today.*
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3. Taxes on the Rich Keep 'Wealth Producers' from 'Creating Jobs' Disposable income can be spent, saved, or  invested it also reduces costs on small business.  Taxing the rich, includes companies that only pass the costs on in their prices.  Raising prices on needed or wanted goods reduces everyones disposable income reducing jobs and  increasing government spending 
We're all familiar with this one. In a New York Post column last week, Fox Business columnist Charles Gasparino claimed that businesses have "been hoarding cash instead of hiring" because of "the likelihood for higher taxes.” Media Matters responded by citing the CBO's finding that "ncreasing the after-tax income of businesses typically does not create much incentive" to hire.
What's noteworthy about the narrative is the degree to which it defies simple common sense. It shouldn't be a matter of debate that only one thing creates jobs, and that's demand for companies' goods and services. The idea that a business that was booming would refuse to hire people and forego expansion because top tax rates might nudge upward is as silly as the idea that a business that has no customers would add new employees because its owners expect taxes to be low.
4. The Opposite: Tax Cuts for Upper Earners Spur Job Growth
Demand creates jobs, and U.S. Demand is way down because American households lost around $15 trillion dollars in wealth during the downturn. So it's important to note that research has shown that when you give a tax break to high-earners, they bank it, and when you give relief to working people, they spend it, increasing demand.
Like other types of public spending, giving cuts to those at the top does stimulate the economy, but very, very badly. According Mark Zandi, chief economist for Moody's, a dollar in tax cuts on capital gains adds .38 cents of economic growth and a dollar in corporate tax cuts brings us just .30 cents worth of stimulus, but a dollar in unemployment benefits gives the economy a boost of $1.63 and a buck worth of food stamps adds $1.73 in stimulus (PDF).

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5. Only Half of American Families Pay Taxes I agree this is a fallacy.  When you look at the wages of people the Total wage package includes the hidden Social Security and Medicare taxes.  Also most people in one way or another pay taxes in the forms of rents, fuels, or fees.  But most are hidden adn they think they are not paying taxes and are more willing to raise the taxes on others.
Rush Limbaugh put it this way: “The bottom 50 percent is paying a tiny bit of the taxes.... Remember this the next time you hear the ‘tax cuts for the rich’ business. Understand that the so-called rich are about the only ones paying taxes anymore.”
That's an entirely false narrative that emerges from some rather transparent sleight-of-hand. You have to look at the federal income tax in isolation and then pretend that it represents the government’s entire take. But the reality is that the government isn't financed from federal income taxes alone – far from it. Payroll taxes, for example, represent the biggest tax bite for the average worker.
When you add it all up—state and local taxes, federal taxes, sales taxes and excise fees—it turns out that the rich, the poor, and those in between all end up with about the same tax rate. That’s the conclusion of a 2007 study by Boston University economists Laurence J. Kotlikoff and David Rapson. They summarized, “The average marginal tax rate on incomes between $20,000 and $500,000 is 40.3%, the median tax rate is 41.8%, and the standard deviation of all of those rates is 5.3 percentage points. Basically, most of us pay about 40%, plus or minus 5.3 percentage points.”
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6. Americans Are Taxed to Death  We are still payoing a tax that was only on the rich from 1897 to pay for the Spanish American War.   When you look at all the new taxes and fees that include both the Federal and State governemt more than half of most peoples income is going toward taxes.
This is one of those claims made so frequently that it becomes a matter of faith. But faith doesn't rely on fact, and this one is totally untrue.
In 2008, we ranked 26th out of the 30 countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) in terms of our overall tax burden -- the share of our economy we fork over to the government. The U.S.came in almost 9 percentage points below the average of the group of wealthy nations, and some 20 percentage points below highly taxed countries like Denmark.
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7. We're Being Killed by Runaway Government Spending At some point we are going to hit a spending that our debt service will exceed more than half of our tax income and at that point no one will loan money to us anymore.
Public spending has increased with the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and, temporarily, with the stimulus package. And it will rise in the future as more baby boomers retire. But beyond that, it's important to understand how “limited” our government really is relative to other wealthy countries.
Sabina Dewan and Michael Ettlinger of the Center for American Progress crunched the data and found that between 2004 and 2007, the U.S. ranked 24th out of 26 OECD countries in overall government spending as a share of our economic output. Only Ireland and South Korea, both relative newcomers to the club, had a more “limited government” than we did during that span. Again, we came in around 7 percentage points of GDP below the OECD average -- and almost 20 percentage points beneath that of big spenders like France
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8. Conservatives Favor Low Taxes and Limited Government Duh!  Every new law every new tax limits your freedom to do what you want with your time and property.   At what point will Liberals make liberalism illegal?
The Right loves “Big Government” as long as it's pursuing their preferred agenda. What they don't like are the government's most popular functions – assuring a social safety net, protecting consumers and the environment, subsidizing education, etc. They don't want to debate priorities, so they claim an ideological preference for a smaller government while showering tons of money on the military, law-enforcement, corporate subsidies, etc.
That's why the share of the economy represented by government spending (at the local, state, and federal levels combined) has been remarkably consistent during the last 40 years or so, regardless of which party controlled the White House or Congress.
In the two years that Gerald Ford presented budgets, government spending as a share of GDP averaged 31.4 percent; in ultra-liberal Jimmy Carter’s four years, it dropped to 30.7 percent; Ronald Reagan, the patron saint of fiscal conservatism, came into office, and it rose to 32.2 percent. It nudged slightly higher during the first George Bush’s term in office, then dropped to an almost Nixonian 30.3 percent during the Clinton years, before rising to 31.6 percent during the second Bush administration.
Looking at the other side of the ledger, overall government revenues have also remained relatively stable, but the pattern is reversed. The government’s take, as a share of GDP, dropped during the Ford era, rose again under Carter, and fell again under Reagan. Revenues rose by almost 2 percent under Clinton and fell by a percent and a half under George W. Bush. (The only exception: government revenues rose from 27.3 percent of GDP during the Reagan years to 27.6 percent under George Herbert Walker Bush – that was the “peace dividend.”)
Although the government taxes and spends at fairly similar rates, under Republican leadership the nation shells out a bit more for government services and takes in just a bit less in taxes. With a $15 trillion economy, those little differences add up to pretty big deficits, and this, rather than hot school lunches for poor kids, is responsible for a large chunk of our federal debt.
Given that reality, it's a wonder that conservatives have managed to convince the mainstream media and much of the country that they’re the fiscally responsible ones who are always ready to step in and clean up the nation’s budgetary mess.
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9. Taxes on Top Earners Are Actually    Taxes on 'Small Businesses'  Yes, most small business file as either a single owner or as a corperation.  Both are taxes at the highest rates.   A corperationj is double taxed.  Once as profits and then again as income.   
For years, Republicans have pushed the spin that most of the Bush cuts for the highest earners were going to “small business owners,” the proverbial lifeblood of Small Town U.S.A. Then Republican national committee chair Ed Gillespie launched the meme in a 2003 speech, saying that “80% of the tax relief for upper income filers goes to small businesses.”
Fact-check.org, the nonpartisan campaign watchdog, looked at the claim, which was cooked up by GOP staffers on the House Economic Committee, and concluded that “it’s untrue—and a classic example of a statistical distortion gone amok.” The lie is pretty simple: around 80 percent of the wealthiest Americans report some business income on their tax returns, either from private partnerships (think big law firms) or from “hobby” businesses. And the GOP committee counted everyone who reported even a dollar on Schedule C of their returns as a “small business owner.”
The reality? Less than 2 percent of tax returns reporting small-business income are filed by people in the top two income brackets. As a Washington Postanalysisconcluded, “If the objective is to help small businesses, continuing the Bush tax cuts on high-income taxpayers isn't the way to go -- it would miss more than 98 percent of small-business owners and would primarily help people who don't make most of their money off those businesses.”

*The "Kennedy tax cuts" were signed into law by Johnson, a year after JFK's assassination.


Offline scootrd

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #259 on: January 01, 2013, 04:10:22 PM »
The 9 Biggest Conservative Lies About Taxes and Public Spending
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All true , but you will not find one conservative here or elsewhere to admit to any of it. No math , No science., no facts allowed. Better chance having pigs fly.

“Fact checkers come to this with their own sets of thoughts and beliefs, and we’re not going to let our campaign be dictated by fact checkers,”  -  Neil Newhouse for Romney campaign

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #260 on: January 02, 2013, 06:36:26 AM »
Some folks just can't stand the fact others worked hard and got rich while they didn't.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #261 on: January 02, 2013, 07:45:13 AM »
Some folks just can't stand the fact others worked hard and got rich while they didn't.


2012...the year of envy
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

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no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #262 on: January 04, 2013, 04:16:49 AM »
Rmember the story of the ant and the grass hopper.  It was a lesson not to screw around and to take care of your self.
Now that story would change that the grass hopper goes to the Dung Beatles and gets them to make the ant give the grass hopper a percentage of his work as well as a percentage to the dung beatles.  The Grass hopper complains that the aunt is not giving enough and that he is still starving, the Dung beatles yell that the aunt that is now giving over 65% of his gatherings to the dung beatles who are handing it to the grass hoppers after taking their share that the Aunt is not giving enough and needs to give a little more as they have more and are able to give as little more and that he has so much is criminal and that he worked for it using his sweat to make what he has.  At some point the Dung beatles are borrowing against what the ant is collecting and is willign to pay the Red Ants from across the pond back and gives the grass hopper more and more.  At some point the ant quits and the red ants will no longer lend the dungbeatles more and the grass hoppers are demanding what he feels he is owed from the dung beatles.

Offline jimster

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #263 on: January 04, 2013, 11:04:27 AM »
Avoiding taxes is American, like apple pie, I do my best to avoid as many taxes as possible.  So do all the progressive socialists out there, only they are better at it...cause only half of us are paying any fed taxes and most who don't are voting to get more of mine.  ;)
Each one of you was a corporation when the government gave you a ss#.  Your name in caps means something now. You can actually represent yourself, and confiscate your own money so to speak. Government is made up of thousands of contract laws...learn them. That's all I'll say about that. You can bet your government knows them all. Lot's of people are down on coporations...but not the government  ;) ...so you won't get very far trying to crack down on any coporations.  Might as well learn how not to pay so much like the other half that are bitching, they don't pay squat. But they sure make lots of noise. Keep as much money as you can..it's the American way for sure. 
 

Offline scootrd

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #264 on: January 04, 2013, 06:24:21 PM »
Rmember the story of the ant and the grass hopper.  It was a lesson not to screw around and to take care of your self.
Now that story would change that the grass hopper goes to the Dung Beatles and gets them to make the ant give the grass hopper a percentage of his work as well as a percentage to the dung beatles.  The Grass hopper complains that the aunt is not giving enough and that he is still starving, the Dung beatles yell that the aunt that is now giving over 65% of his gatherings to the dung beatles who are handing it to the grass hoppers after taking their share that the Aunt is not giving enough and needs to give a little more as they have more and are able to give as little more and that he has so much is criminal and that he worked for it using his sweat to make what he has.  At some point the Dung beatles are borrowing against what the ant is collecting and is willign to pay the Red Ants from across the pond back and gives the grass hopper more and more.  At some point the ant quits and the red ants will no longer lend the dungbeatles more and the grass hoppers are demanding what he feels he is owed from the dung beatles.

Less Fable and more realistically is the corporate Ant who through a decade of field law manipulation now has control over 99% of the field. Through their arrangement with the field Congressional Dung Beetle the ant has now marginalized the grasshopper to having only access to 1% of the field (the poorer yielding part at that) from which the grasshopper tries to meek out a subsistence like existence.

The bought and paid for field congressional Dung beetle who preside over 5% of Prime Ant field (as bestowed upon him by the corporate ant for helping maintain status Quo)  really enjoys this arrangement with the corporate ant as it allows the beetle to keep lining his own personal pockets with additional dung all the while pretending to represent the grasshopper in his fight for more fair field environment conditions.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #265 on: January 04, 2013, 08:06:17 PM »
Rmember the story of the ant and the grass hopper.  It was a lesson not to screw around and to take care of your self.
Now that story would change that the grass hopper goes to the Dung Beatles and gets them to make the ant give the grass hopper a percentage of his work as well as a percentage to the dung beatles.  The Grass hopper complains that the aunt is not giving enough and that he is still starving, the Dung beatles yell that the aunt that is now giving over 65% of his gatherings to the dung beatles who are handing it to the grass hoppers after taking their share that the Aunt is not giving enough and needs to give a little more as they have more and are able to give as little more and that he has so much is criminal and that he worked for it using his sweat to make what he has.  At some point the Dung beatles are borrowing against what the ant is collecting and is willign to pay the Red Ants from across the pond back and gives the grass hopper more and more.  At some point the ant quits and the red ants will no longer lend the dungbeatles more and the grass hoppers are demanding what he feels he is owed from the dung beatles.
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We're taking care of ourselves by putting kleptocrats, system gamers, and tax avoiders and other crooks/predators under the microscope.....and to demand a little fairness in the system.  Other than that _ _start sharpening up the guillotines.
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..TM7
OK lets line up some of the Hypocrite tax cheats first.
John Kerry, Timmy Gietner, Hillary Clinton, Warren Buffet, Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi.  All Owe the nation or state collective millions and are calling for more taxes for you and me while skipping out on their own fair share.

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #266 on: January 05, 2013, 01:37:29 PM »
OWL GORE   sold his network  to  ALJEZZEAR


for  half a billion  oil dollars


he made sure the deal went through before the  first  ....TOO AVOID THE NEW  TAXES
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #267 on: January 06, 2013, 09:03:49 AM »
TM7 we are a nation of laws, right or wrong that is the way we are governed. Those who are in fact breaking laws need to be punished, upon that we must all agree. If the laws are flawed they must be changed not ignored
 
Until the laws are changed it is either legal or illegal, you may argue it is not right, but that is only a judgement subject to your and other opinions. Frothing about as if laws are broken, when in fact they are simply followed to the apostrophy is not correct. What is good for business is generally good for the country, or it should be.
 
Class envy may be the way you have chosen to get the laws changed. Historically it has worked just fine. From Lennon to Chavez the strategy has elevated them to the lofty seat of wealth and priveledge that labor and financial accuman could not. Should modern PACs be compared to that ilk?  Both groups would seem to be equally able to destroy nations from inside the system.
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Offline charles p

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #268 on: January 06, 2013, 10:15:43 AM »
I suppose a busness owner could fire every employee, then sell the product inventory and manufacturing equipment, then the building and grounds, and have an all time high profit and all time low wages - ONCE.

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: corporate profits all time high, wages all time low
« Reply #269 on: January 06, 2013, 11:05:08 AM »
I suppose a busness owner could fire every employee, then sell the product inventory and manufacturing equipment, then the building and grounds, and have an all time high profit and all time low wages - ONCE.




HOSTESS
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.