Author Topic: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)  (Read 1295 times)

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Offline bluelake

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24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« on: December 02, 2012, 01:01:31 AM »
I've tried to find a photo of a 24-pdr DBH, as mounted on a ship.  The only picture I really came up with at all is a grainy B&W one of a few tubes in Ripley's artillery book from 1970.  Although any picture of one would be great, if one is shown ship-mounted, that would be best.  I need it for my doctoral dissertation.  All credit would be given to the source.  Thanks in advance!
 
Thomas
 

Offline steelcharge

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2012, 02:36:59 AM »
I'm not too familiar with the Boat Howitzers, so I'm not sure if the photo in my link shows a 12 or a 24pdr (or one of the rifled ones) but it's mounted on a ship atleast. Just click the black and white photo and it will show up.

http://portcolumbus.org/blog/2010/06/17/dahlgren-howitzer-lands-at-port-columbus/?replytocom=21

Offline cannonmn

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2012, 02:46:07 AM »
Here's an interim reply, a previous posting here on this site, credit goes to orig poster.  I have a pic or link to one, of a 24 mounted in broadside, will look for it.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,186641.0.html

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2012, 07:47:28 AM »
     Thomas,  Mike and I took some photos of a 24Pdr. onboard a recreation of the ship Michigan/Wolverine, the U.S. Navy's first iron hulled ship, launched in 1843 from an Erie, Pennsylvania shipyard.  She maintained peace on the Great Lakes for 79 years and was armed with quite a collection of guns and rifles including two 24 Pdr.  Dahlgren Boat Howitzers, one of which is on the ship recreation in the Erie Maritime Museum and one in a local Erie Park.  The ship had several 20 and 30 Pdr. Parrotts a few of which were converted to breech loaders.

      The ship Michigan, laid down in 1843, was the U.S. Navy’s first iron hulled warship.  She sailed the Great Lakes for her entire, long career, until 1923 and was scrapped in 1949.  We found some interesting information about the ship at www. maritimemoments. wordpress.com among other sites.


      “The USS Michigan Launches Herself

     The builder, Samuel Hart, watched his creation proudly as she poised to slide into Lake Erie on that December day in 1843. Then his pride turned to embarrassment because she stuck on the ways and could not be moved backward, forward or sideways. The onlookers grumbled impatiently. After all, they had come to see the U.S.S. Michigan sink. After a few hours of watching the dock workers sweat and struggle to launch her, the spectators gave up and went home. The next morning, Mr. Hart and some of the workers came back to the dock, crowbars in hand, to have another tray at launching her. They were stunned. There she sat already launched and floating serenely. During the night the blocking had given way and the Michigan slid down the ways all by herself and drifted over in back of a warehouse. The U.S.S. Michigan had launched herself.

     As she sailed out onto the lake, the U.S.S. Michigan was indeed a handsome sight with her clipper bow, three tall raking masts and a tall smokestack. In her first years of Great Lakes life, she was painted black to the top of her gun ports with a white stripe along the bulwarks. Her draft was kept to nine feet so she could use most of the small harbors on the Great Lakes. Because of her draft and the then limited knowledge of metal construction, her hull was flat-bottomed like a box in the cross section. This combined flat bottom, shallow draft and large upper works made her at times hard to handle. One old quartermaster was asked why he kept moving her helm from side to side while she was on a steady course. He said, “You have to keep her confused so she won’t take a sheer.”
 

Please see photos below.

Tracy & Mike


Mounted in broadside.  The weathering came, no doubt, from it's years in the park with it's boat howitzer companion.





24 Pdr. Markings.





Breech details.





24 Pounder Dahlgren Boat Howitzer business end.



Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline bluelake

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2012, 01:24:29 PM »
Thanks, Everyone!  If a photo is yours, please let me know who credit goes to.
Cannonmn, I'd like to see the pic, if you can find it.
Steelcharge, regarding the Dahlgren on the Nipsic, I wonder if it was a 12 or 24; the ship had two of each.
 

Offline cannonmn

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2012, 04:02:36 PM »
The weapon aboard NIPSIC IMO is a 24  Why?  Look at the other two 24's pictued above or in the link to pix of the gun in the WNY.  All the 24's have centerline sights and firing lock clevis (base) on right side of breech.  Look at green 12 pdr rife tube, has lock clevis and sights on left side of tube.
Port Columbus thinks the NIPSIC gun is a rifled 12, but I think the carriage shown under the 24 on that ship is a unique design for the 24's in a "broadside" mounting.  I hope they didn't copy the NIPSIC carriage design thinking it was proper for the 12-pdr rifle.

Offline bluelake

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2012, 04:49:52 PM »
That's good to know, cannonmn--thanks!  :)
 

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2012, 07:49:57 PM »
Here's one heck of a photo that I don't recall ever seeing before. That's supposed to be Abraham Lincoln standing, and William H. Seward sitting to his right.
You can use the control bar on the left to manipulate the picture.

http://www.fold3.com/image/#269874141
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline bluelake

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2012, 02:49:41 AM »
NEAT find, Cannoneer!   :D

Offline GGaskill

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2012, 08:17:07 PM »
... and William H. Seward sitting to his right.

The person ID'd as Seward looks female to me.  YMMV.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2012, 09:42:52 PM »
I don't know about that one George, I don't believe that there were all that many women folk wearing suits and spats back in that era.
On a different note, when I first saw this photograph I started to wonder if that seated naval officer could possibly be J. A. Dahlgren himself, but after studying some photos of Dahlgren it doesn't seem likely; the officer in this photo appears to have a stockier build, and the face and beard (even though blurry) just don't seem to match up with J. D's mutton chops, but then again..........
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline BoomLover

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2012, 07:32:58 PM »
Hummm....using the 2X magnification app on the side of the pic, first, I actually tend to agree with George...build looks quite female, but can't really be sure...and the other seated person has a full beard, not like the usual pics of Dahlgren...Just my humble opinion!
"Beware the Enemy With-in, for these are perilous times! Those who promise to protect and defend our Constitution, but do neither, should be evicted from public office in disgrace!

Offline Ex 49'er

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2012, 09:30:55 PM »
Neither the shoes or the hat look like what a man would wear. Using the 4x magnification brings it in even closer. Looks feminine to me!
 
Great picture of the howies.
When you're walking on eggs; don't hop!!

Offline cannonmn

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2012, 09:35:46 PM »
The officer in the photo' foreground could not be Dahlgren.  Consider the info on this photo
----------------------------

Filename: Near Washington, D.C.  July 11, 1864  Photo by Frank Pulsifer.JPGDocument Title: Near Washington, D.C.  July 11, 1864 Document Description: Photo by Frank Pulsifer on board the U.S. Revenue Service Cutter U.S.S. (sic) Wayanda.-------------------------------
 
1.  The officer doesn't look anything like Dahlgren.  I could analyze the uniform and rank insignia but there are easier ways.
2  In July 1864, if memory serves, Dahlgren was in command of the large squadron of ships which was attempting to capture Charleston, SC., and had his hands full there.  He was not "near Washington DC."
3.  The setting is aboard a US Revenue Cutter, again a place we'd be unlikely to find Dahlgren. who was of course a U.S. Navy officer.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2012, 09:42:24 PM »
The "but then again.........." at the end of my last post was only meant to convey wishful thinking, but I'm fairly convinced that the seated officer is not John A. Dahlgren.

Concerning the "supposed" image of William H. Seward; what is it exactly about the figure, that makes the two of you suspect that the subject is female?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline dominick

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2012, 02:17:09 AM »
Neither the shoes or the hat look like what a man would wear. Using the 4x magnification brings it in even closer. Looks feminine to me!
 
Great picture of the howies.

I don't think women wore pants back then, or maybe some did.  It looks something like chaps that are covering the top of his/her shoes.  The hat, ??  Don't know.  :-\   Although the front silouette of the shirt appears to be feminine, it could be the angle of the photo. 

Offline cannonmn

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2012, 02:48:18 AM »
Seems that some of us are thinking the post including the link to the shipboard scene was just guessing at the ID of the person in the white hat.  It wasn't guesswork, that's a well-known photo and the info which comes with it from the Library of Congress (or wherever) included the fact that this person was William H. Seward.  That info's been wth the photo since the day it was taken.  But skepticism is a good thing.

Here's a pic of Seward in case anyone wants to try a comparison of the images.
http://www.google.com/imgres?start=119&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&tbo=d&biw=1047&bih=596&tbm=isch&tbnid=RBEGpNZd-sdvLM:&imgrefurl=http://emergingcivilwar.com/2012/08/28/weedpac-the-fos-friends-of-seward/&docid=8jd_4AWtAdiIoM&imgurl=http://emergingcivilwardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/william_seward1.jpg&w=480&h=640&ei=l5TEUI2VH-XL0AHUt4GQCA&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=208&sig=102784292369242706948&page=5&tbnh=143&tbnw=105&ndsp=31&ved=1t:429,r:21,s:100,i:67&tx=72&ty=84

Offline USRCutterman

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2012, 05:40:23 PM »
Good Evening,
   A photo you may find helpful is here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/DavidDixonPorterdetail.jpg
The Dahlgren he is leaning upon is one variety of the 24-lbr, this one with trunnions.  Another can be seen outside the USCG Museum, on the grounds of the USCG Academy in New London, that one with the underloop.  The Porter photo shows the shipboard slide carriage in detail.  I have a photo of the Academy gun, but cannot seem to upload it here.  If you would like a copy, e-mail me at the the below address, I will happily share them, as well as any others I have collect over the years.
As an aside, the photo with President Lincoln referenced in the thread above is indeed taken aboard the USRC (US Revenue Cutter) Wayanda in 1864/65.  According to contemporary sources, the President often utilised Revenue Cutters for transportation within the Chsapeake Bay and tributaries, as he did in May 1862 when he travelled to Fortress Monroe aboard USRC Miami. 
I have encountered quite a bit of info regarding boat howitzers during my research of USCG-owned original 12lbr medium/heavy smoothbores #245 and #246, which now reside at USCG Base Portsmouth and USCG TRACEN Yorktown, respectively.  The info helped in the restoration and use of the howitzer as a display and salute gun for the command:
http://tmlha.exis.net/lantarea.htm
Cheers!
Allen Mordica, CWO4 USCG (ret)
Tidewater Maritime Living History Assn. (TMLHA)
http://tmlha.exis.net
 
 
 
 
 

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2012, 07:06:21 PM »
Welcome aboard, USRCutterman, and thanks for your post and links.

I don't want anyone to think that I was ignoring Ex 49'er and cannonmn on my preceding post, but when I started that post the last post I saw was BoomLover, and that's who I was responding to.

Ex 49'er, George, BoomLover, and Dom, you've all  made interesting observations, but I think I'll still stick to my original impression, and consider that person a man. Now, I couldn't tell you from experience if that's William H. Seward or Adam, but I think that I'll make a leap of faith, and take the photographers word for it.

Cannonmn,
You got downright Holmesian on this one. Now I'm even more convinced (than my earlier appearance based convictions led me to believe) that that's not Dahlgren. Number 3 might be a little thin though; couldn't Abe Lincoln have brought anyone he wanted to accompany him, including a U.S. Navy officer?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2012, 08:39:15 PM »
Quote
The Dahlgren he is leaning upon is one variety of the 24-lbr, this one with trunnions.
Allen, don't take offense, but Porter is leaning against a Dahlgren 20-pounder bronze rifle, not a 24-pounder smoothbore boat howitzer.  When you see the trunnions on a beast like that, it is a 20-pounder rifle, as no "production" 24-pounder smoothbores were ever made with trunnions, all had the underloop.   One one of my previous posts here, and another poster's, showed multiple images of another such rifle at the Navy Museum in DC, showing proper nomenclature for the weapon incised on top of the tube.
Cannoneer wrote:
Quote
couldn't Abe Lincoln have brought anyone he wanted to accompany him,
including a U.S. Navy officer?
Sure but in wartime, I wouldn't expect a naval officer would be asked to be there unless his duties had some direct connection with the event.  On that day in 1864 it could not have been Dahlgren as he was commanding the South Atlantic Blockading Squadron off Charleston, SC,  not "near Wasington, DC" the site of this photo.
 

Offline cannonmn

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2012, 01:35:04 AM »
Some photos of a Dahlgren rifled 20-pounder, but this one's on what I think is a very late CW or more likely postwar cast bronze carriage.  Object is at the Museum of the United States Navy in DC. This is a brief slideshow, mouse over lower screen for control buttons.  If the site wants a password, put in "attack."

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums64/Dahlgren%20Rifled%2020%20pdr/?albumview=slideshow

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: 24-pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer (pic needed)
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2012, 03:03:46 AM »
Cannoneer wrote:
Quote
couldn't Abe Lincoln have brought anyone he wanted to accompany him,
including a U.S. Navy officer?
Sure but in wartime, I wouldn't expect a naval officer would be asked to be there unless his duties had some direct connection with the event. On that day in 1864 it could not have been Dahlgren as he was commanding the South Atlantic Blockading Squadron off Charleston, SC,  not "near Wasington, DC" the site of this photo.

Has this post been edited, or is my mind playing tricks on me again? No matter, the blue sentence is still a supposition. That was my whole point John; why bother following up conclusive evidence (red), with something that's undecisive?
Dahlgren's command of the South Atlantic Blockading Squadron didn't come to mind, but even if it had, I doubt if I'd recall the correct year, let alone month off the top of my head; so I've got to sing the praises of your memory.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.