Author Topic: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades  (Read 755 times)

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Offline two-blocked

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American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« on: December 03, 2012, 06:00:10 AM »
Americans hate paying taxes. They also want Congress and the White House to balance the budget.
 
They can't have it both ways.


On one side of the escalating budget debate is the premise, offered up by a generation of politicians and tax policy wonks since Ronald Reagan, that government spending is dangerously "out of control" and needs to be restrained. Even if the cure means starving the Treasury Department of cash.
 
One the other side is a promise, dating back to the Great Depression and expanded through Lyndon Johnson's Great Society, to divert a greater share of the nation's hard-earned resources to care for the oldest and most economically vulnerable Americans.
  That decades-long conflict seems to be approaching something of a Moment of Truth.
 
“If we want to maintain ourselves as a very low-tax country, then we have to break some of those promises,” said Michael Linden, a tax policy analyst at the Center for American Progress, a left-leaning think tank.
 
“That’s the big dilemma that facing the country right now. That’s the basic contour on the debate.”
 
The debate intensified over the weekend, as Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner made the Sunday talk show circuit to lay out the case for the Obama administration’s latest budget proposal. The plan calls for nearly $1.6 trillion in new tax revenue over the next decade, along with some $600 billion in spending cuts, including $350 billion from Medicare and other health programs.
 
The plan also calls for raising tax rates and limiting deductions on households making more than $250,000, a proposal Geithner told NBC’s "Meet the Press" Sunday that he thinks congressional Republicans will accept.

 
“I think we’re going to get there,” Geithner told NBC.
 
House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, isn't so sure.
 
His first response to the White House proposal: “You can’t be serious,” he told "Fox News Sunday."
 
NBC Politics: Geithner urges Republican leaders to offer ideas on 'fiscal cliff'
 
Still, with the deadline for a deal to head off the so-called “fiscal cliff” now less than a month away, the debate has shifted from whether taxes should go up to just who should pay more.  Both sides seem to acknowledge  what some economists have been saying for some time.
 
The problem with the budget is that Americans don't pay enough taxes.
 
The case isn't hard to make.  The U.S. federal tax burden, relative to gross domestic product, is lower than it’s been in half a century. Americans pay lower taxes in relation to the size of their economy than all but a handful of developed countries, including Chile and Mexico.
 
The relatively low tax burden on Americans is, in part, an illusion that results from heavy reliance on hundreds of billions of dollars of so-called “tax expenditures.” To make government spending appear lower than it really is, the U.S. tax code is larded with givebacks, deductions and exemptions.

 
For example, the government lets you off the hook for paying taxes on the cash your employer pays to cover your health insurance coverage - income by another name. The cost of those uncollected taxes would show up as spending if the Treasury paid you a direct subsidy for health care. (That tax break, by the way, is the biggest single giveaway the government provides.)


Or take the earned income tax credit, which issues payments to low-income households. This giveback costs the Treasury just as much as if it collected the money from all taxpayers and then turned around and used it to write checks for those with the lowest wages. 

 
 “It doesn’t really make much difference whether the government taxes people - and spends the money in order to redirect it - or whether it gives a tax incentive that encourages people to spend their own money in the same way,” said Bruce Bartlett, who served as a Reagan administration policy adviser and as a Treasury official under President George H. W. Bush. “Economically, it's exactly the same thing.”
 
 
The biggest sticking point in the current debate centers on whether tax rates should rise.  Thanks to the thicket of loopholes available at all income levels, those "marginal" rates have little to do with how much of your hard-earned money you must fork over to the government.
  As a percentage of their total income, though, Americans are paying less than they have  in more than a half century. Since 1960, the government’s total take has been remarkably steady at about 18.3 percent of gross domestic product, give or take a percentage point.
 
In the second half of the 1990s, that changed. Thanks to a booming economy , the Treasury began collecting money faster than the government could spend it – without raising tax rates. The dot-com stock market boom, for example, produced a surge in capital gains taxes, even after the government cut the tax rate on those gains in 1997.
 
By the end of the decade, the Treasury was using the excess cash to pay down the national debt. But that raised the politically difficult question: if the government collects more than it needs, doesn't that mean tax rates are too high?
 
The result was 2000 campaign pledge from both President George W. Bush and his Democratic opponent, Al Gore, to cut taxes, a promise that the government apparently could afford to make at that time. Just a few years later, when the dot-com boom turned to bust, the new, lower tax rates starved the government of cash following the 2001 recession and the weak recovery that stalled wage growth.
 The                    SOURCE: OMB            That shortfall widened sharply following the deep recession of 2007, when tax receipts cratered. Last year, the Treasury's total take came to just 15.4 percent of GDP, the lowest level in 60 years.
 
When income dries up for the average American household, most people start looking for ways to cut back. But during the 2000s, no one in Washington was in the mood to cut government spending, which continued to rise throughout the decade, paid for with borrowed money. Ironically, that decade of government spending  beyond its means without harm may now make it harder for Congress and the White House to convince voters to accept spending cuts.
 
“If you cut their taxes without showing people what that means in terms of cutting services, they don’t understand that those two things are connected over time,” said Linden. “All of a sudden, government services just seem cheaper to people.”
 
For now, government spending doesn't appear to be the problem. After peaking in the first quarter of 2011, even before the mindless "fiscal cliff" cuts imposed by "sequestration," federal spending has begun falling gradually.  That contraction is one of the reasons the economic recovery remains weak.
 
 
This may not be a good time to cut spending. As Europe’s weaker countries are demonstrating painfully, trying to balance a national budget too quickly with tax increases and spending cuts can just as quickly send an economy in reverse. In the U.S., most private economists, along with the Congressional Budget Office, have warned that the “fiscal cliff” package of a half trillion dollars in tax hikes and spending cuts will almost certainly send the American economy back into recession next year.
  That would take an even bigger bite out of tax receipts. Which is why there’s widespread agreement that the best way to raise more money for the U.S. Treasury is to spur the economy to produce a bigger pie of wages, capital gains and investment income that can be taxed. After all, every new job creates new tax dollars  without increasing the tax burden on those already employed.
 
The Obama administration argues that the government needs to invest more tax dollars to spur economic growth. The latest White House budget proposal includes $200 billion in new spending on jobless benefits, public works and help for struggling homeowners.
 
Until the day comes when the government collects enough taxes to pay its bills, it will have to borrow more money. And no one on either side of the aisle believes the government can balance the budget again for at least another decade, if not longer.
 
For now, the best hope is to shrink the deficit gradually and slow the expansion of some $16.3 trillion in government debt that has piled up after taxpayers shortchanged their government for more than a decade.
 
Despite widespread agreement on the long-term goal of eliminating budget deficits, though, the impact of a swollen national debt remains a largely intangible threat to most voters.
 
Unlike the Great Inflation of the 1970s, when double-digit interest rates all but killed the housing industry and  prices of everything from groceries to gasoline soared, most consumers today aren’t feeling the impact of the current federal budget debate on their own budgets.
 
That’s eased much of the pressure on Congress and the White House to make a deal, according to Bartlett.
 
“What is the potential benefit of reducing the deficit?” he said. “Are you going to get lower prices? No. Are you going to get lower interest rates? No. Are you going to get more economic growth? No. So there’s no tangible payoff. It’s all theoretical or even hypothetical. I think that’s the main constraint today in terms of putting together a budget deal.”
 
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/economywatch/facing-fiscal-cliff-american-taxpayers-have-had-it-easy-decades-1C7378082?ocid=msnhp&pos=1#/business/economywatch/facing-fiscal-cliff-american-taxpayers-have-had-it-easy-decades-1C7378082

Offline dwalk

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2012, 06:27:37 AM »
everyone knows, understands and accepts that taxation is a legitimate need.


however...the power to tax has become an out of control ogre that eventually WILL break the back of the nation.


congress, state legislatures, counties and cities all levy their taxes with impunity, for the biggest part.


those entities do NOT care, one iota, how much stress and strain they force onto the taxpayer.


as an example: you work hard, pay off your house...the county still assesses and levies property taxes on property that you paid for and own out right, NOT that they paid for...should they have a right to take it from you if you don't pay the taxes they demand? NO! i believe NOT.


it falls incumbent on the american VOTER to rectify these problems: letting politicians determine the rules...


1. taxation has become oppressive at ALL levels


2, politicians who pass and support such levels of taxation need to be voted OUT


3. a SIMPLE taxation system MUST be initiated.


4. percentage is fair, but NOT a PROGRESSIVE percentage! IMO, no one should pay more than 10% income tax at any level. the Marxist  idea of "He who makes more should pay more" is perverted, convoluted and should be abolished.


the whole concept of a FREE America was to allow those who have the incentive to prosper is it not?


taxes and high energy costs will kill this country if we allow it to.
don't squat while wearing your spurs...will rogers

Offline lakota

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2012, 06:34:59 AM »
RISE UP COMRADES! LET US GET THOSE CAPITALIST DOGS! They should be taxed at 110% of their income!
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Offline briarpatch

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2012, 02:34:22 PM »
I would say 47% of America would agree with you.

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2012, 03:05:22 AM »
Americans hate paying taxes. They also want Congress and the White House to balance the budget.
 
They can't have it both ways.
Sure they can, the republican congress did it while slick willie was seducing Monica.

I saw an economist on the news yesterday that made it simple.
determine the economic growth, and limit the spending "increases" to 1% less than that.
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Offline JonnyReb

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2012, 03:51:29 AM »
That article isn't (barely)worth commenting on but geez, did it actually imply its STILL Bush's fault? lol. If you libs finally get your way, and your taxes, and your social programs, all your wants on your list for santa, you'll be in a 3rd world version of america. I wouldn't mind that actually, except i'll be stuck there with you. What I wonder is....who will they blame then, ? Probably anyone with anything left.  J
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Offline Brett

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2012, 03:55:56 AM »
Geithner is full of crap.  The problem isn't that Americans don't pay enough taxes the problem is our Government gives away too much money.

I don't mind helping those who can not help themselves nor do I mind helping veterans and the elderly.

What I do mind is being forced by the Government to give money to those who flat out refuse to work.  I also don't like having to fund groups, organizations and programs which are wasteful, corrupt and even promote agendas that conflict with my personal principals and beliefs such as government funded abortion, handing out birth control in public schools, etc.

I also find it offensive that our government sends billions if not trillions of our money out of the country in foreign aid when we have people starving and living on the streets in our own country.  Not to mention our wounded and disabled veterans and their families  They have sacrificed their bodies or even their lives for our country and our government turns it's back on them helping war refugees in some third world country (where they hate us no less) instead.

Cut the waste, stop funding programs and organizations that should be funded by the private sector and I bet the government would have enough tax revenue to fund what really needs funding. 

Another thing, demand that the demigods who reside in Washington and political offices across the country live by the same standards and laws that they impose on us.  That alone would save billions and or at least force them to share their windfall with the common folk.
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Offline magooch

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2012, 04:27:43 AM »
Brett--right on!
Swingem

Offline Gary G

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2012, 07:42:02 AM »
["American taxpayers have had it easy for decades"]
...while sacrificing their own well being paying some of the highest taxes in the world.


Government does not support itself. It thrives only by confiscating wealth from the people. The bigger it grows, the more wealth it must extract. That is why they want higher taxes. They wish to continue to grow at our expense. Cutting government growth is never considered.



The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2012, 08:31:54 AM »
I would say 47% of America would agree with you.

BUT BUT BUT they don't pay taxes  ::)
American tax payers have been forced to guard the free world , feed alot of the rest and offer medical help around the world only to see our jobs exported because law , standards and policy have pushed investment away and some idoit says we have had it easy for decades , my BS meter just peged !
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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2012, 10:07:14 AM »
Had it easy huh?

Federal income taxes, State income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, fuel taxes, road taxes, (license plates)......the list is nearly endless. And they all want MORE!

Yup we got it easy! ::)
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Offline BUGEYE

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2012, 11:14:33 AM »
Had it easy huh?

Federal income taxes, State income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, fuel taxes, road taxes, (license plates)......the list is nearly endless. And they all want MORE!

Yup we got it easy! ::)
yep, the only gas appliance in my house is the water heater. it burns about $9 worth of gas each month, but my bill is $30+
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Offline Anna

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2012, 01:02:09 PM »
Geithner is full of crap.  The problem isn't that Americans don't pay enough taxes the problem is our Government gives away too much money.

I don't mind helping those who can not help themselves nor do I mind helping veterans and the elderly.

What I do mind is being forced by the Government to give money to those who flat out refuse to work.  I also don't like having to fund groups, organizations and programs which are wasteful, corrupt and even promote agendas that conflict with my personal principals and beliefs such as government funded abortion, handing out birth control in public schools, etc.

I also find it offensive that our government sends billions if not trillions of our money out of the country in foreign aid when we have people starving and living on the streets in our own country.  Not to mention our wounded and disabled veterans and their families  They have sacrificed their bodies or even their lives for our country and our government turns it's back on them helping war refugees in some third world country (where they hate us no less) instead.

Cut the waste, stop funding programs and organizations that should be funded by the private sector and I bet the government would have enough tax revenue to fund what really needs funding. 

Another thing, demand that the demigods who reside in Washington and political offices across the country live by the same standards and laws that they impose on us.  That alone would save billions and or at least force them to share their windfall with the common folk.


Rome faced the very same problems, everyone hated them until they were gone. Welcome in the
dark ages. Now its our turn, what do the Russians say ? With the amount that you are taxed its
hard to believe that you can call yourselves free. America, the land of the not so free.

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2012, 01:20:12 PM »
Almost fergot! Anything that I manage to hang on too after all those other taxes...the fed wants 50% of when I die! >:(
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2012, 02:21:52 AM »
Geithner is full of crap.  The problem isn't that Americans don't pay enough taxes the problem is our Government gives away too much money.

I don't mind helping those who can not help themselves nor do I mind helping veterans and the elderly.

What I do mind is being forced by the Government to give money to those who flat out refuse to work.  I also don't like having to fund groups, organizations and programs which are wasteful, corrupt and even promote agendas that conflict with my personal principals and beliefs such as government funded abortion, handing out birth control in public schools, etc.

I also find it offensive that our government sends billions if not trillions of our money out of the country in foreign aid when we have people starving and living on the streets in our own country.  Not to mention our wounded and disabled veterans and their families  They have sacrificed their bodies or even their lives for our country and our government turns it's back on them helping war refugees in some third world country (where they hate us no less) instead.

Cut the waste, stop funding programs and organizations that should be funded by the private sector and I bet the government would have enough tax revenue to fund what really needs funding. 

Another thing, demand that the demigods who reside in Washington and political offices across the country live by the same standards and laws that they impose on us.  That alone would save billions and or at least force them to share their windfall with the common folk.


Rome faced the very same problems, everyone hated them until they were gone. Welcome in the
dark ages. Now its our turn, what do the Russians say ? With the amount that you are taxed its
hard to believe that you can call yourselves free. America, the land of the not so free.

Yes Rome in the end , wicked , free sex , homosexuals, getting others to fight wars , women  of wealth walking around almost nude in public or in some cases nude , on and on .........Sound like anywhere today ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2012, 09:28:34 AM »
American tax spenders have had it too easy.
 
Congress has to find a way to live within its means, period. They have spent money like trust fund children. The trust fund has been bankrupted by poor investments. Pissing and moaning to the trust fund managers will not get the interest income back. The principle is at stake now.
 
Some bills and obligations must be paid. However, Maids, Butlers, Caviar, Fast Cars and Fat Cigars must be eliminated.
 
We have tried all for awhile, maybe we should go back to nothing for a bit, to get our priorities straight. It may well make it easier to come up with a solution.
 
We were once rightfully concerned with the man who had no feet. We met the man with no shoes, and we provided for him. Now it seems we must provide someone to polish shoes, it must end.
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Offline Gary G

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2012, 09:52:30 AM »
American tax spenders have had it too easy.
 
Congress has to find a way to live within its means, period. They have spent money like trust fund children. The trust fund has been bankrupted by poor investments. Pissing and moaning to the trust fund managers will not get the interest income back. The principle is at stake now.
 
Some bills and obligations must be paid. However, Maids, Butlers, Caviar, Fast Cars and Fat Cigars must be eliminated.
 
We have tried all for awhile, maybe we should go back to nothing for a bit, to get our priorities straight. It may well make it easier to come up with a solution.
 
We were once rightfully concerned with the man who had no feet. We met the man with no shoes, and we provided for him. Now it seems we must provide someone to polish shoes, it must end.


It will end.


I could borrow and max out a dozen credit cards and live high on the hog. One day someone says no more. Payback time.


It is the same for governments. One foreign government says no more. Bonds crash and all try to get to the exit before they become worthless. Only in this case, we have the Bernank to buy the debt with printed money. Zimbabwe time! Hyper inflationary depressions are the worst kind. All commerce breaks down, except for black markets, for those with something of value other than money.
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2012, 09:58:35 AM »
If you want to limit the tax burden limit the number of children a couple can have to what they can take care of with out assitance. Limit immigration to those with a valid need to enter. Cut spending abroad, cut out wars for all but real threats to America and allies no more police actions . Cut govt. and use private contractors where possible.
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Offline Anna

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Re: American taxpayers have had it easy for decades
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2012, 02:19:47 PM »
Oh absolutely, i as taxpayer have had it far to easy. I need to pay more, so it can go to the pervert
arts,funding our enemy's, destroying my way of life, watching Mexico take over, and disarming me.
Trashing my God and making fun of his son, watching children get molested,bums moving next door
to me.