Author Topic: Should red light cameras be banned??  (Read 1574 times)

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Offline powderman

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Should red light cameras be banned??
« on: December 05, 2012, 06:42:13 AM »
Red-light traffic cameras have drivers seeing red  By John R. Quain
Personal Tech
Published December 05, 2012
FoxNews.com     
  •    A red light camera setup in Los Angeles, where a 2010 audit blamed police for not adequately compiling statistics at the 32 intersections where red light cameras are installed, making it difficult to conclude whether they are effective. (AP Photo/Nick Ut)
  The application of technology without sufficient discipline is usually a bad thing. Witness the latest problems with red light cameras.
 
Depending on how you read the latest studies, cameras are either a  Big Brother danger to the public or the latest in life-saving technology. Either way, some drivers are seeing red -- and turning to other technologies to help.
Last month, the New Jersey Department of Transportation released report on 24 red-light camera intersections in the state and found that rather than preventing accidents, the cameras seemed to increase accident rates. In the year before the cameras were installed there were 577 accidents at those locations, versus 582 accidents in the 12 months after the cameras were installed, thanks in large part to an increase in rear-end collisions.
 
Almost simultaneously, American Traffic Solutions (one of the private companies supplying the systems in New Jersey) issued a press release stating that the DOT report actually supported the idea that red-light cameras prevent accidents. However, ATS was focusing only on one particular -- albeit particularly dangerous -- type of crash, so-called T-bone or right angle crashes. When considered separately, these types of accidents were actually down 15 percent from the previous year.
 
On the face of it, it deterring drivers from running red lights would seem to be uncontroversial. No one wants to run a red light and everyone wants to prevent accidents and road fatalities. I witness buses and trucks running red lights every day in New York City; curbing those dangerous drivers would be a good thing.
 
The problem with red-light cameras, however, is with their implementation, and this may account for discrepancies in how effective or ineffective they are in reducing accidents.
One thing some drivers have pointed to is the seeming shortness of yellow lights at intersections outfitted with cameras. In some instances, such as in June in New Jersey, subsequent examination by local DOTs found that indeed some yellow lights were dangerously short. Now a class action lawsuit in New York is claiming that lights in the city are rigged with short yellows in order to hand out $50 tickets. The New York DOT says it has looked at cameras after previous reports of problems and found them to be in compliance.
However, the actual problem is what counts as "compliance." States are required to adhere to the Federal DOT Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices for Streets and Highways, which states that yellow-light timing should meet engineering standards. Most take that to mean a minimum of 3 seconds or longer according to a formula based on posted speed limit, reaction times, and stopping distances.
 
The yellow timing formula actually recommends a 4.3-second yellow for a intersection on a road with posted 45 mph speed limit. Practically speaking, if the purpose is safety, then many intersections need longer yellows since drivers don't travel at exactly the speed limit (say 40 mph in a 35 mph zone).
 
Furthermore, many intersections are located in less than ideal locations, on hills or curves and set up decades before red light cameras were conceived. So a 3-second yellow may not be sufficient to prevent accidents where panicked drivers are trying to avoid tickets. In fact, in New Jersey the DOT sets such lights on 45-mph roads at 5 seconds (6 seconds is the recommended maximum).
There's also considerable disagreement -- and no national standard -- on whether or not to inform drivers of the locations of red-light cameras. Most municipalities treat them like speed limits and post signs noting a camera's position. Some departments even make the information available online.
 
Other places such as New York City attempt to hide the cameras and even set up dummy cameras to fool drivers. This approach is supposed to underscore deterrence, but it tends to undermine the idea that the cameras are there to increase safety. Without warning signs drivers have no idea they are approaching a particularly dangerous intersection, which is where cameras are supposed to be deployed.
Of course, there is no way to truly hide a red-light camera. Portable navigation devices, radar detectors and crowdsourced apps for smartphones like Trapster all report the location of such cameras within minutes of their installation. In a test, I found that a TomTom navigation device and an Escort radar detector correctly identified several red-light cameras in New York City. The only hiccups occurred on elevated highways where the devices beeped photo enforcement warnings about cameras that were actually below me on a secondary road.
 
So should red-light cameras be banished?
Not just yet. Like any technology, without intelligent guidance, they are bound to be misused and abused. What is needed are established standards concerning more cautious yellow-light timings and red-light holds (so-called wait times). Higher resolution video camera could also improve accuracy, and there should be rules about notifying drivers of camera locations.
Not every intersection needs a camera, but if installed and used properly, they could save lives instead of creating more fender benders (and revenue).
Follow John R. Quain on Twitter @jqontech or find more tech coverage at J-Q.com.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/12/05/red-light-traffic-cameras-have-drivers-seeing-red/#ixzz2ECTmVI34
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2012, 11:11:14 AM »
it's a scam for years. Red Light Camera peeps come in, make their pitch offer to install cameras, demand shortened yellow light interval, watch accidents increase along with the revunue


scoundrels
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline Doublebass73

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2012, 01:18:02 PM »
They should be banned
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."

---- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2012, 01:23:36 PM »
If not banned then all proceeds should go to the community. They are only installed when a private firm becomes involved.
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Offline Ranger99

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2012, 01:46:54 PM »
yes.
they are strictly revenue generators.


if it were truly about safety, and it
could be truthfully said they made
for a safer world, i'd be all over it.


truth is, they pick out a vehicle to
mail a citation to .


that's it - no punishment for the driver.


this is what i mean. if i run a red light, yes
i broke the law and should be punished.
if i'm driving a friend's vehicle, who gets
the fine?  the owner of the vehicle.
if i hand my keys to a co-worker who is afoot
and say, needs to drive to the post office at
breaktime and they run two red light cameras,
who gets punished? not the lawbreaker, me , the
owner of the vehicle.
that logic is not about safety, that's about
generating revenue. and if it's not about safety,
there's no point at all in red light cameras.
18 MINUTES.  . . . . . .

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2012, 01:53:41 PM »
don't run red lights or break laws


don't  loan your car to  anyone that would run a red light or commit crimes in your car


maybe no  ticket  just a fine tho


don't pay the fine  loose your tag


constitution entitle you to due process
your car tag has no such protection
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline Ranger99

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2012, 01:59:15 PM »
the whole point is to punish the guilty
party, not someone who happen to own the vehicle.


same logic says if someone steals my gun, i'm
responsible for any mayhem committed by
the thief who stole it.


if i had employees and a company vehicle,
if they were to commit a crime i should
not be held responsible for any illegal action
they were to do in my vehicle.
18 MINUTES.  . . . . . .

Offline curteric

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2012, 02:13:33 PM »
About 10 years ago the Minnesota DOT, installed a red light camera at an intersection, that the District Traffic Engineer, ( my car pool partner ) and I went through. It was done as an experiment, no tickets were issued, and no one was contacted. The intersection also has a warning signs, on the mainline, that start flashing when the light turns yellow. You have plenty of time to stop from the speed limit when you see the sign flashing. The speed limit is 55 MPH. In fact if you see the sign flash, as your going by you can not get through on the yellow light, it will turn red before you get there. The camera was connected to the control loops in the pavement that ran the lights. It was timed to take the picture 3 seconds after the light turned red. I know that the timing was correct. The camera was digital and would take and hold 278 photos. The project was to last a week, the 278 photo was taken on the 5th day.  You wouldn't believe all the calls that came into the Engineers office that claimed that they really didn't run the light. One guy called and swore that he went through on Green, in the photo, the pavement markings between the camera and his back bumper indicated that he was about 264 feet through the intersection and you could see the red light was lit.  Just and FYI.

Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2012, 02:20:01 PM »
The lights,are just objects. Its the people who Use them as tools of oppression that are the problem.

Offline Ranger99

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2012, 02:28:49 PM »
i don't object to obeying and enforcing
the law.
i do object to the logic that says this
vehicle is showing to be registered to
tommy lee jones. it ran the light in our
photo. let's mail mr. jones a ticket.


that's stupidity.


if robert duvall was driving, he needs to
be the one to be punished.


that's sounding like the i.r.s. position
on tax owed. they feel someone is going
to pay regardless of right or wrong.
hence, you see children's savings accounts
frozen because grandpa or somebody owed
delinquent tax.
18 MINUTES.  . . . . . .

Offline curteric

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2012, 02:43:52 PM »
Haul Robert Duvall's butt into court and straighten it out.
 I never loan vehicles to anyone in fact in 50 some years it has never happened. Only myself, wife and daughters drove our vehicles.

Offline Ranger99

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2012, 02:50:15 PM »
still. . . . . if the law breaker is
not the one fined or punished or
hauled into court, the whole exercise
is very pointless, the whole selling
point of redlight cameras being more
and improved traffic safety.


if the lawbreaker is not the sole person
to receive some form of punishment,
then the whole process is pointless.
by default , a revenue generator, not
a safety tool.
18 MINUTES.  . . . . . .

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2012, 02:52:07 PM »
I find the cameras to be a great target for Paint balls.  Simply shoot the lense and the soap pellet covers the lense and license plates can no longer be read.  On my way to work every day you could get the camera to fire if you rolled over the trap at over 10 miles an hour and came ot a fast stop.  the 10 miles and hour triggers the camera to fire.
On a cool day you will get people to clap as you walk up and un load at the cameras. 

Offline arrington

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2012, 03:56:50 PM »
Yes, they should be banned.You have the right to face your accuser in court. A red light camera can't testify or be cross examined.


They are nothing more than a driving tax.

Offline powderman

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2012, 05:43:13 PM »
don't run red lights or break laws


don't  loan your car to  anyone that would run a red light or commit crimes in your car


maybe no  ticket  just a fine tho


don't pay the fine  loose your tag


constitution entitle you to due process
your car tag has no such protection

 
4570GT. Come on now, you surely aren't suggesting that we obey the law are you?? POWDERMAN.  ;) ;)
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline lakota

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2012, 07:10:23 PM »
Yes, they should be banned.You have the right to face your accuser in court. A red light camera can't testify or be cross examined.


They are nothing more than a driving tax.


Excellent post. 100% right.

I say ban them too. Traffic court is the only court where you are guilty until proven innocent. These red light cameras only add to that fact.

A city near where I used to work has red light cameras near the hospital. They were always mailing us red light tickets even though it was clear in the photo that we were running through the red lights with pretty flashing emergency lights on the way to the ER. We are allowed to do that under state law. It is clear that no one looks these "violations" over before they are mailed out and every time one was received  it required a supervisor a minimum of an hour on the phone arguing with the city that issued the ticket.
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Offline Tommyt

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2012, 02:33:25 AM »
 Florida is changing the Plates to make them more clear for the camera's to pick up
 
I want them BANNED/ Outlawed

Offline magooch

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2012, 03:39:07 AM »
Our city council decided to have red light cameras installed at a few problem intersections.  They were there for a few months and then people insisted that they be taken out.  A vote was held.  The vote was overwhelming and the cameras were taken out. 
It was ovbious to almost everyone that it was nothing but a scam and did nothing to make the intersections safer.  In truth, our town does have a problem with people running red lights, but part of the problem is the lights themselves.  The only intersections that are problems are on roads where the speed limit is 35 mph.  The lights were timed so that at that speed you had a split second to decide whether to slam the brakes, or take a chance on making it through the yellow.
I consider myself to be a very careful and prudent driver; I try very hard to obey all the speed limits and traffic lights, but I have to admit that I occasionally get caught in the "make it, or brake it" split second thing.  It is especially critical when you're pulling a trailer.  It is often not safe to brake too hard, so you try to make it through on yellow.  Sometimes you're going to misjudge and get caught just a little short of making it through on yellow. 
I wish I had a dollar for every time the light turns yellow and I choose to hit the brakes and then a driver in the next lane 150 feet behind me goes right on through on red.  There really isn't a good excuse for that, but it happens.  It has been suggested that if safety is the goal. why not simply have a few seconds delay between when the red light comes on for one direction and the opposing light turns green.  I was told that this is already done in some cases.  The thing is that you don't want that to be common knowledge, so that drivers won't factor it in in their driving.
The town still has speed cameras in a few school zones.  My only problem with that is that there is no reason to ticket someone if they happen to be doing 25 in a 20 mph school zone when there isn't a kid in sight anywhere--no harm, no foul.  Very few drivers are purposely going to rip through a school zone when there are kids all over the place.  Again if safety is the goal, use flashing lights and have very prominent signs.
Swingem

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2012, 05:39:59 AM »
If you're riding a motorcycle to work in the morning, and a women in an Audi A4 decides to brake hard at a camera intersection, and the intersection roadway is oily and maybe a little damp.....I can assure you that you have a problem.  Not only are these camera intersections illegeal shakedown revenue scams...THEY'RE DANGEROUS AS HE!!.
.
mcwoodduck_ _ didn't Cali stop trying to collect on these scams and are taking the cameras out...?
.
..TM7


sounds like some one is following toooo close.....for conditions
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2012, 06:08:14 AM »
I turned left at one of them and the people turning left got backed up which left me in the middle of the intersection while the light turned yellow then red and FLASH it cost me $75

yep, ban'em.
Give me liberty, or give me death
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Give me liberty, or give me death
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Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2012, 06:23:22 AM »
i don't object to obeying and enforcing
the law.
i do object to the logic that says this
vehicle is showing to be registered to
tommy lee jones. it ran the light in our
photo. let's mail mr. jones a ticket.


that's stupidity.


if robert duvall was driving, he needs to
be the one to be punished.


that's sounding like the i.r.s. position
on tax owed. they feel someone is going
to pay regardless of right or wrong.
hence, you see children's savings accounts
frozen because grandpa or somebody owed
delinquent tax.


the  owner should know who is driving his vehicle
jones needs  to get the money from  duvall.....or never let him drive it again


we are not talking ''seize the vehicle'' or a record.....just a fine
jones should be  happy to know  how duvall  is risking  his truck
sounds  like grounds to  fire an employee....if it  got habitual

when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline lakota

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2012, 06:41:53 AM »
45/70 I thought you were a smaller government kind of man? Installing traffic cameras "for the greater good" seems like a whole lot more government to me. What are they going to use these cameras for next? Maybe they can switch them on and fine you for picking your nose at an intersection? Maybe one catches you glancing down and they fine you for that? Maybe they create a whole new government agency called the Ministry of Red Light Cameras to comb through intersection photos and videos looking for the most insignificant things they can find and then mail out fines for them? Red light cameras are just more nanny state, hidden tax, money making, Bravo sierra.
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Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2012, 06:51:47 AM »
In new orleans they get you for speeding too....
Give me liberty, or give me death
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Give me liberty, or give me death
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Offline curteric

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2012, 10:34:29 AM »
red light cameras cause accidents and deaths...and don't prevent them

Wrong !!!!!     Traffic Engineers know that if you want to reduce accidents and slow traffic you remove traffic signals and replace them with Octagonal Red Signs that read STOP. Studies show over and over that people obey the good old STOP sign. They don't try to beat them like they do lights. Quite frankly crashes ( they are not accidents ) at intersections are caused by people, not paying attention, or trying to beat the system, not equipment.


Offline guzzijohn

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2012, 10:48:54 AM »
In many locations the private company that owned the cameras could also control the lights and would set the yellow light to be very short so it was almost impossible to get through an intersection if the light was just starting to turn yellow as you were entering the intersection without getting a ticket. Once people started getting ticketed under this system it would cause more rear end wrecks as people would slam on the breaks if the light started turning yellow at the last moment. This was especially a problem in Arizona.
GuzziJohn

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2012, 11:42:15 AM »
Haul Robert Duvall's butt into court and straighten it out.
 I never loan vehicles to anyone in fact in 50 some years it has never happened. Only myself, wife and daughters drove our vehicles.


not worth the courts  time
just collect the fine  or don't re-new the tag
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2012, 11:44:56 AM »
I turned left at one of them and the people turning left got backed up which left me in the middle of the intersection while the light turned yellow then red and FLASH it cost me $75

yep, ban'em.


a woman was following too  close a few years ago
o made  $500  out of it
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline magooch

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2012, 11:48:52 AM »
From personal experience with traffic cameras, I can say that they also cause a lot of undue worry and anxiety.  Often times the flash for the camera would trigger when you had done nothing wrong.  You couldn't help thinking that, Oh crap, now I'm going to have to go to stinking court and try to prove I didn't do anything.  Also, when that flash went off it was very distracting at a place and time that your attention should be foremost on the road and traffic.  Any way you slice it, those cameras are not a good thing--unless you own stock in the vendor companies that push these things.  Along with banning the cameras, all do-gooders should be banned from serving on town councils and anywhere else where common sense decisions are called for.
Swingem

Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2012, 02:47:19 PM »
They tried them here and in my area a lot of people started using alternate routes through residential areas. 55 in a 30, but nobody was enforcing it there.

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Should red light cameras be banned??
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2012, 01:28:06 AM »
They are only there for one thing--- to make money. The standard for yellow lights is one second per ten mph, so about 4 seconds for a 40 mph street. The DOT has done studies showing that extending that time two seconds knocks out a big percentage of accidents at any intersection. So, what do the red light camera operators do? They SHORTEN the yellows! Also, if they were concerned about safety and thought those cameras were the key, they would put them near schools, churches, and hospitals. Instead, they always put them at high traffic intersections, because more traffic means more fines and more money.

A while back I read a news story about a guy that got a ticket for $100 in the mail with a photo of his car going through the light. He sent them a picture of a $100 bill! Apparently, someone at his traffic control office had a sense of humor, though--- they sent him a picture of the courthouse! He sent them the money...
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.