Michigan might be # 24

[SHOOTALL]

The thing that inflamed these Michigan union people is that Gov Synder swore he wouldn't sign this right to work bill....then went ahead and signed it....TM7

  Can you show me where HE said that?  All i saw, over and over was him saying that it origionally wasn't on his agenda...  He said, that he had NOT planned to look at it.  Then it did come up, so he looked at it and dealt with it.
 
  I don't care how it got there, now the people have a choise!  Kinda put the thugs back in their place, didn't it??
 
  The unions have cost a LOT of jobs in Mi...  I personally know of several shops that closed down and moved to "right to work" states!
 
  NOW, if they can get those usless union teachers in line, maybe THAT problem will get headed in the RIGHT direction too!!
 
  DM

Wild he used democratic pratices on democratics , that sneky devil.  say one thing do another !

[SHOOTALL]

Sounds like he is on the right track to FIX MONEY problems .

[Drilling Man]

Sounds like he is on the right track to FIX MONEY problems .

  He's doing exactly what he said he would do...  Bring more business to Mi..  Unlike the last Gov. who did nothing but kissazz and spend money!!  She threw a lot of $ into the Detroit toilet hole, and all that happened to it, was a bunch of stealing by those that ran Detroit!
 
  I think he's done a good thing, it gives workers a CHOISE!  AND if the union is so great, workers will join.   Keep that in mind, IF the union is so great, why are they now worried??  Greatness means EVERYONE will gladly join!
 
  DM

[jimster]

Well alot of Michiganers think he broke or renegged on his promise. Synder said he was a bipartisan guy and would work to solve fiscal problems accordingly.

Well, maybe you did not listen to me TM7...I pointed out that our governor was more than happy to leave well enough alone, it was the unions who decided to try to stick something in our Constitution...called proposition 2...so maybe you did not get that.  This would have permanently put unions things in place inside our constitution. So they started it all. Maybe you missed this...but if someone slaps you, you slap em back...harder. The unions got out of line with prop 2.  Our governor came out and said this also in a news conference, you missed that too I guess.
I also pointed out that in this state there are a lot of little UAW sweat shops around town, not as many as there used to be because places are voting them out, which they can do anyway. So bottom line is, the place I work for makes more than GM employees do...lots of places make more than the little UAW places, I used to work for one when I was a young lad. Now where I work...we have X GM employees there, have not heard one of them say the union did them any good...except to say they went bankrupt. They are happy to be with us now.
I also do not agree with many people thinking our governor renegged on anything....the union people say this, most clear thinking people I talk to wonder why the unions challenged him on prop 2 and made an issue to deal with. Once they did that...our governor showed leadership and did what he thought was best for all.
I also don't get why union members are upset at all...they can still have unions, people can stay in or move out, they have everything they had before...except the power to MAKE you join and TAKE your money...what's the big deal....unless they have nothing to offer? In which case, it might be time for the unions to try to OFFER something to the people that non union shops do not have. And maybe try to keep places they are in from going bankrupt might help to. 
 
Hey...just tellin you how it is here in Michigan...I worked for a UAW place, glad I'm not anymore...and yes, we now make more then GM in non union places that are the same size (OK, after going bankrupt things changed with GM pay, but that just makes my whole point right?)...no red ink, no tax payer money needed where I work...I'm very surprised you can't get that, and I'm double surprised you would take someone's freedom to choose away, plus their money...I thought you were all about liberty and freedom? The Unions have not lost a thing...unless people leave them.  Which you know they will...when a free person is given a choice...they make one. I personally think the union people are misinformed, underpaid...and they should stop smoking pot and drinking on their lunch hours...cause they are building our cars. The unions let them do that too here in Michigan, another sore spot for all of us here.
 

[Drilling Man]

  The only unionbusters i see in Michigan, is the unions themselves!
 
  I know MANY folks in Mi. that lost their jobs, as in closed shops, because of the unions they had.  Most of the "working" folks i know in Mi. are happy about the right to work law.
 
  The rest of you union robots need to get over it!  lol
 
  DM

[tobster]

"

 
  On the flip side I had a friend that was a postal worker in Florida and he claimed that the union was forced to represent employees that weren't union members and didn't pay dues. That sure doesn't seem right.

This little piece of BS is just that. The union is only required to represent an non union employee up to the point where money gets involved........if it cost the union anything, they can step out at that point.
"
People should join unions because they WANT too, not because they HAVE too.

  Just curious about the source of your facts that you base that statement on. Do you work for the postal service in Florida?  Maybe a union steward or business agent for the union?

[scootrd]

I say let it ride till 2014 . Lets see how many corp lower wage industry jobs it attracts and if the people are happy with this outcome.
Then put in on the ballot for the next general election, in 2014 and let the people of Mich. decide for themselves if they are happy with their depreciating livable wage scale.

States with GOP and/or  DEM majority controlled legislatures that continue to ramrod crap through in lame duck sessions are both in for a rude awakening.

What the people want more than anything is a voice in their own Govt. They are tired of this reps not working together to represent the majority of peoples. Especially the younger generation. They don't carry staunch ideological partisan views.

So let it ride and see what majority of voters decide is best for their state in a few years. 

[SHOOTALL]

all business has had to suck it up over the last few years and really work hard . The union is no different other than it seems they will go kicking and screaming.......

[tobster]

I think that is part of the beef unions have with the bill. I'm quite certain a worker that chooses not to join the union still gets the benefits like wages, pension,etc. that the union members receive. I'm just a little sketchy on what happens when a non-union employee has a grievance with the company. I know what I've been told by a union member but it's possible I have been misinformed.

[SHOOTALL]

tobster...I think you're right...if a union negotiates a contract the other workers get the same contract ...i.e. wage benefits.  What are they going to do,,,negogiate a contract and only give the package to the union workers....? Don't think so.
Union labor mentality is one of  'solidarity' and why they get on edge when they see union busting measures like Synder's pulling a fast one.
.
.
..TM7

That might be true in some stated but maybe not all. I have worked in a plant owned by one of the worlds largest chemical companies. We did a lab. for them to be exact we did the under ground another company did the above ground . The lab was top secerate to a point as there were both trade and military concerns involved. Next door the exact same lab was being built . Our side was the non union lab built and staffed by non union people the other by all union. It was a competition . It was an excersise in how things would progress and which was most cost effective from start to  finish from a building stand point and from what testing and development came out of the labs after completion. What I was told was the cost of construction was not that divided but the time from start to completion was a wide spread which elevated cost for the union side , keep in mind these were exact in every way . I don't know about the rest . We had not run the pipe that was used before nor had we encased the pipe in a bag with lead detection as this required . So the deck was not stacked . On note all pipes comming thru. the floor (concrete) could not be off in any direction more than 1/64 as checked by engineers it was not an easy job. But at least in this case it pointed out the difference in non union vs union in construction.

[SHOOTALL]

In case of a grievance...the non-union employee is on his own. LoL.  That would be my guess,,,he doesn't get to talk over his problem with the union reps.
.
..TM7

No he would go to the state labor board which carries the ablity to take and employer to court and have them repsent him for free. It is done all the time . I know because I have been on both sides of that deal. It works well. But by chance that was not an option he could go to the federal dept of labor. again at no cost to him.

[scootrd]

If union negotiates better working conditions in a shop does the non-union worker working within same shop not benefit from that negotiation?.

If a union negotiates a better wage , or change in benefit, more vacation days, etc.. does not that non union worker benefit as well?

So the non union worker working along side their union counterpart is rewarded with a better wage, benefit, and better working condition yet does not have to contribute to the organization that negotiated the better labor contract.


OH YEAH,
"that's the way you do it, Get your money for nothing and your chicks for free"

[45-70.gov]

In case of a grievance...the non-union employee is on his own. LoL.  That would be my guess,,,he doesn't get to talk over his problem with the union reps.
.
..TM7

as it should be


in my 12 years  as a union carpenter
i see the unions doing more to create an environment  of ''us against them''
than they did to actually help the union worker get ahead in life

[SHOOTALL]

If union negotiates better working conditions in a shop does the non-union worker working within same shop not benefit from that negotiation?.of course you omit the fact that the non union worker could ask for and get the same thing 

If a union negotiates a better wage , or change in benefit, more vacation days, etc.. does not that non union worker benefit as well? So when a union negotiates what do the offer ? of course a certian amount of work for a spefic wage right ! The problem is to make sure they can deliver that amount of work can't be more than the most useless worker on site. So they have to restrict what the best workers can turn out. Now if the non union worker could get paid according to his production instead of the lowest producing union guy he may could make more so in reality the union may be holding him back 

So the non union worker working along side their union counterpart is rewarded with a better wage, benefit, and better working condition yet does not have to contribute to the organization that negotiated the better labor contract. Or as noted above may in fact be losing $$$$ because of the union ! Why pay someone to allow you to work ?


OH YEAH,
"that's the way you do it, Get your money for nothing and your chicks for free" Right believe that if you want.

[SHOOTALL]

Shootall...I think we're talking about 2 different things...a) contract specifications for a build or job, and b) work contract for labor...wage, sick days, HC, vacation, hours, retirement, etc....The job spec was the exact same.
.
 I would assume specs for a build are just about identical whether a union or non-union shop builds the job...unions are probably slower....faster is not always better.I agree but when both jobs had to meet the exact same spec and was checked by engineers from an out of state firm . Faster ment less time until the lab was in service and paying for itself. As they say time is money. BTW I ran that job and we did not break our necks .
.
..TM7

[BUGEYE]

in my 12 years  as a union carpenter
i see the unions doing more to create an environment  of ''us against them''
than they did to actually help the union worker get ahead in life

When delta airlines fell on hard times, we volunteered to take a pay cut till they were out of trouble.
we were paid back and then some...
when eastern airlines fell on hard times, the union members negotiated themselves right out of a job as the airline closed its doors.   Idiots...

[SHOOTALL]

BUGEYE , that about sums it up as best it can be.

[SHOOTALL]

Shootall...I think we're talking about 2 different things...a) contract specifications for a build or job, and b) work contract for labor...wage, sick days, HC, vacation, hours, retirement, etc....The job spec was the exact same.
.
 I would assume specs for a build are just about identical whether a union or non-union shop builds the job...unions are probably slower....faster is not always better.I agree but when both jobs had to meet the exact same spec and was checked by engineers from an out of state firm . Faster ment less time until the lab was in service and paying for itself. As they say time is money. BTW I ran that job and we did not break our necks .
.
..TM7

Let me add that back in the 80's before going into business I wanted to get into control work. ( keep in mind in my area the union and non union plumbers and pipefitters get along well). Well all the control contractors were union. So I tried to get a job , the guys knew me as they had worked on jobs with me for years. I was told I would not fit in I worked to hard and would have a hard time slowing down. Plus to get in you had to buy a book and it was over 1800 bucks back then , you did know non union workers could work union jobs if the bought a book right ? so much for better workers as they are often the same 

[scootrd]

For a union to be in a company, the majority of the workers had to say that they wanted a union. If you're going to work for a company that is a union shop, you have the choice of working there, or going somewhere else that is non-union. If the unions were not able to collect dues from all employees, then you have a group of employees who benefit from the union gained rights, but don't have to pay for them.  "Get your money for nothing for your chicks for free."

Skirt the issue all you want , all this was is a Corporate MGMT power grab to weaken labor through bought and paid for legislators. The net result is to allow Corporations to keep wages low and exploit the American worker.

Facts -
Workers (union and non-union) in right-to-work states make more than $5,000 a year less, on average, than in other states.
Right to Work state employees are also 34.8 percent more likely to be killed on the job.
Right-to-work laws disproportionately harm women.  Union women, on average, earn $149 more per week than non-union women on right to work states.
The wage gap between men and women in right to work states It is only 5 percent between union men and women
Right-to-work states have 21 percent more people without health insurance
Children in Right to Work states are 52.4 percent more likely to be uninsured
The infant mortality rate in right-to-work states is 16 percent higher
Residents of Right to Work states are 15.3 percent less likely to have pension coverage.
Students in Right to Work states are less likely to be at grade level in math and reading.
Overall poverty and child poverty rates are significantly higher in Right to Work states

Sources - Economic Policy Institute; US Census Bureau; Bureau of Labor Statistics; US Department of Labor.

I could go on , but it just falls on deaf ears.
I think Snyder and legislature is in for a very rude awakening in next election cycle.  - JMHO

Semper Fi

[45-70.gov]

in my 12 years  as a union carpenter
i see the unions doing more to create an environment  of ''us against them''
than they did to actually help the union worker get ahead in life

When delta airlines fell on hard times, we volunteered to take a pay cut till they were out of trouble.
we were paid back and then some...
when eastern airlines fell on hard times, the union members negotiated themselves right out of a job as the airline closed its doors.   Idiots...

i guess unions are like people.....some are better than others


but  for a state to empower a union by  allowing to force membership  is just wrong

[BUGEYE]

Right to Work state employees are also 34.8 percent more likely to be killed on the job.

Every company has to follow OSHA rules whether union or not.

[SHOOTALL]

Right to Work state employees are also 34.8 percent more likely to be killed on the job.

Every company has to follow OSHA rules whether union or not.

I could believe that since more work is done . Its like saying more elephants are shot in Africa than the USA . Only make sense more are shot where more hunting takes place.
 BTW the group doing the study was in a union state when the study was conducted go figure .......

[mcbammer]

The  right  to  work  states  recruit   corporations   by   incentives.  They  say  come  to  the  sunbelt  where  theres  good  weather  year  round.  We  will  give  you  a  sweetheart  deal on  taxes  . Will  get  our  money   back  from  the  employees  payroll.  These  corporations  get  deals  too  good  to  turn  down.  They  seal  the  deal  when  they  promote  their  non-union  workforce.     

[SHOOTALL]

oh give me a break , with those higher union wages the union states should be in a better position to buy business get real.

[BUGEYE]

Right to Work state employees are also 34.8 percent more likely to be killed on the job.

Every company has to follow OSHA rules whether union or not.

I could believe that since more work is done . Its like saying more elephants are shot in Africa than the USA . Only make sense more are shot where more hunting takes place.
 BTW the group doing the study was in a union state when the study was conducted go figure .......

Good analogy,  I don't trust anything put out by the left anymore.  they are basically dishonest...

[mcbammer]

oh give me a break , with those higher union wages the union states should be in a better position to buy business get real.

Reality  is  in  a  150  mile  radius  of  my  front  porch  there  is  ,  Hyudai  , Honda,Mercedes ; Kia ,  Toyota . Airbus .  Their  comeing  here  for  some  reason.

[45-70.gov]

The  right  to  work  states  recruit   corporations   by   incentives.  They  say  come  to  the  sunbelt  where  theres  good  weather  year  round.  We  will  give  you  a  sweetheart  deal on  taxes  . Will  get  our  money   back  from  the  employees  payroll.  These  corporations  get  deals  too  good  to  turn  down.  They  seal  the  deal  when  they  promote  their  non-union  workforce.     

exactly!


i am so glad they come south...instead of over seas
i  hope the rest of those yankee union states don't figure this  out


you are correct unions   and taxes  drive jobs away

[briarpatch]

My company could usually bring a power plant from ground breaking to fire in boiler in less than two years. That is fossil fuel.
We took over a job in a union northern state that had been going on for 9 years. It was said the union used it for a place to send workers when jobs were short but the workers were not allowed to work on the job. The company fought the union in court and was finally able to take control and rebid the job which we got. I was a supervisor and was sent to the job.  The outside equiptment was ruined from sitting in the weather and everthing was rusty and in bad shape. Most closed in buildings had been turned into sleepin/ lounging areas, what a mess.
We had fire in the boiler in less than 9 months. The high way patrol had to man all gates so we could work.
Not a good commentary on unions. 

[Drilling Man]

My company could usually bring a power plant from ground breaking to fire in boiler in less than two years. That is fossil fuel.
We took over a job in a union northern state that had been going on for 9 years. It was said the union used it for a place to send workers when jobs were short but the workers were not allowed to work on the job. The company fought the union in court and was finally able to take control and rebid the job which we got. I was a supervisor and was sent to the job.  The outside equiptment was ruined from sitting in the weather and everthing was rusty and in bad shape. Most closed in buildings had been turned into sleepin/ lounging areas, what a mess.
We had fire in the boiler in less than 9 months. The high way patrol had to man all gates so we could work.
Not a good commentary on unions.

  Yup, and they wonder why they have problems!!  lol
 
  IF i felt like typeing a long story, i could tell you about touring a GM plant, and seeing UAW workers SLEEPING on cardboard right next to the line that was crawling along!!
 
  DM

[scootrd]

The  right  to  work  states  recruit   corporations   by   incentives.  They  say  come  to  the  sunbelt  where  theres  good  weather  year  round.  We  will  give  you  a  sweetheart  deal on  taxes  . Will  get  our  money   back  from  the  employees  payroll.  These  corporations  get  deals  too  good  to  turn  down.  They  seal  the  deal  when  they  promote  their  non-union  workforce.     

exactly!


i am so glad they come south...instead of over seas
i  hope the rest of those yankee union states don't figure this  out


you are correct unions   and taxes  drive jobs away

And who do you think closes the states lost tax revenue gap when corp tax incentives are implemented?

you can lead a horse to water.....