308 or 30-06?

[Ranch13]

The best part of the heavy 30 cals, tho they are trajectorily challenged, is oft over looked by most folks. Their high sectional density and moderate velocity allows them to pentetrate like crazy when lobbed out of an 06,308 or 30-40. Great shortrange rounds to be sure.

[ironglow]

My choice of .308 came, not because I figured them to be absolute equals power wise, because they are not. In my opinion there will be 100-200 fps for any given bullet.  As I said in my previous post however, most game animals could never tell us the difference!
      I chose the .308 because the "big game" im my area are big, northeastern whitetails and black bears, and for those animals I believe the .308 to be completely sufficient.   In fact, in the area where I live (my county describes itself with the slogan, "enchanted mountains") with the generally short ranges, the old 30/30 lever is a good choice.
   I like the accuracy, and my being 76yrs old..the gentler recoil and shorter bolt stroke and the Ruger American's 6.12 lbs weight is a plus, as is the rotary magazine.
 
  Of course, this wouldn't have come about for me, had I not given my Marlin 336 to my #3  grandson.     I've been passing my guns to my grandkids in recent years...then discovering.."hey I could have still used that"...so I get another.
  So, I replaced the Marlin with the Ruger .308 and a CVA Scout  in .44 magnum (same grandson has my old H&R .44 mag)..
   Judging by results when hit at my usual ranges, I doubt the deer could tell the difference between the .308 & .44 mag either.

[SHOOTALL]

Why is it that the top end is all that is ever considered ? Not every reloader wants to shoot 220 gr bullets at max pressure. Today with the cost of ammo at levels that cause many to stop target shooting and the lack of componets aval. not to mention their cost also going up many may be looking for enomical loads or like I did several years ago look for a reduced load fom my DIL. I found a light load for the 308 using a 130 gr bullet that kills deer very well. ( over 40 years of hunting I have noticed that bullets around 120 - 130 going 2700 - 2800 fps seem to be a great blance of recoil and killing power , they always work well. No that isn't to say other rounds are not as good only they work. ) . So in such cases the smaller 308 case out shines the larger 3006 case. And that is why both still have a place .

[scootrd]

I have noticed that bullets around 120 - 130 going 2700 - 2800 fps seem to be a great blance of recoil and killing power ,.......
. So in such cases the smaller 308 case out shines the larger 3006 case. And that is why both still have a place .

Sounds like your describing a 7mm-08

[Drilling Man]

Why is it that the top end is all that is ever considered ?

  The same reason my car doesn't only go 55.  "I" have the option of going faster "IF" i ever want to...   
 
  DM

[nomosendero]

Why is it that the top end is all that is ever considered ?

  The same reason my car doesn't only go 55.  "I" have the option of going faster "IF" i ever want to...   
 
  DM

Then the wrong cartridges are being discussed.

[Drilling Man]

Why is it that the top end is all that is ever considered ?

  The same reason my car doesn't only go 55.  "I" have the option of going faster "IF" i ever want to...   
 
  DM

Then the wrong cartridges are being discussed.

  Why?  I didn't pick the cartridges and i don't drive a Vette or a Viper.
 
  As long as the "top" speed is fast enough for me, i don't need anything that will go faster, or push a bullet faster.
 
  DM

[nomosendero]

Why is it that the top end is all that is ever considered ?

  The same reason my car doesn't only go 55.  "I" have the option of going faster "IF" i ever want to...   
 
  DM

Because top end is way beyond what either of these rounds can do. So if having the option of going faster if I want to is the consideration, then the 300WM would be better because you can load to 308 or 30-06, or go "Vette" or you could go "Viper" with a RUM or Ferarri with a 30-378, but yes we often choose not to & for good reason
 
Then the wrong cartridges are being discussed.

  Why?  I didn't pick the cartridges and i don't drive a Vette or a Viper.
 
  As long as the "top" speed is fast enough for me, i don't need anything that will go faster, or push a bullet faster.
 
  DM

[ironglow]

From drilling man;
  "  As long as the "top" speed is fast enough for me, i don't need anything that will go faster, or push a bullet faster"
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
  DM;
   I believe that is exactly the analogy which Shootall and I were making.   

[SHOOTALL]

I have noticed that bullets around 120 - 130 going 2700 - 2800 fps seem to be a great blance of recoil and killing power ,.......
. So in such cases the smaller 308 case out shines the larger 3006 case. And that is why both still have a place .

Sounds like your describing a 7mm-08

they work quite well , but I was thinking 7X30 Waters 

[SHOOTALL]

Why is it that the top end is all that is ever considered ?

  The same reason my car doesn't only go 55.  "I" have the option of going faster "IF" i ever want to...   
 
  DM

Well that wasn't the point if you include the rest of the post. In fact the 308 will go fast but will the 3006 go slower  as well as the 308 ? When you start reducing load denisity you can (more often than not) get erratic burn leading to wide spreads in bullet speed resulting in more open group size. Then with the new trend toward short barrels the 06 will blast more unburnt powder out the muzzle also. The best bet is to have both car or gun.

[nomosendero]

Why is it that the top end is all that is ever considered ?

  The same reason my car doesn't only go 55.  "I" have the option of going faster "IF" i ever want to...   
 
  DM

Because top end is way beyond what either of these rounds can do. So if having the option of going faster if I want to is the consideration, then the 300WM would be better because you can load to 308 or 30-06, or go "Vette" or you could go "Viper" with a RUM or Ferarri with a 30-378, but yes we often choose not to & for good reason
 
Then the wrong cartridges are being discussed.

  Why?  I didn't pick the cartridges and i don't drive a Vette or a Viper.
 
  As long as the "top" speed is fast enough for me, i don't need anything that will go faster, or push a bullet faster.
 
  DM

What I meant was not difficult at all, just saying if we use that analogy then we would be looking at yet faster rounds. You can load the 300WM down to upper end 308 velocities & 30-06 velocities, 55mph I guess and go for the "Vette" I suppose 300WM velocities or maybe go for Lambo speeds & get a 30-378.

But I do understand DM's point concerning the 30-06 having the right speed for him. I have a similar view concerning the 300WM when I choose to shoot a magnum 30 cal. It meets my goal when I want more than my 30-06 or 308. It would be easy to convert my Sendero to 300RUM, but it would not give me anything that I am aware of. If I want to push the range envelope beyond this rifle, I will rig up a big 338, which is not likely.

But if the OP poster knew what velocity range works best for him, this thread would have never started. So clearly, other factors are at play.

[scootrd]

Original OP stated  -

I want to buy a high powered rifle in either 308 or 30-06?  I'm leaning towards the 30-06 because of the different types of ammunition available (lower cost?). Which would you get?

OP did not provide enough specifics. For me it all comes down to preferred application.

What do you want to us your rifle for ?
intended purpose?
Prefer short or long action?
species of game or just punching paper?
Terrain or environment considerations?
Looking for a jack of all trades master of none , or selection for a specific purpose?
etc..etc.. etc..


Pick the rifle fits you best - weigh the above considerations (among others),
then decide on best possible cartridge that meet the needs.

my .02 cents .. others mileage may vary

Semper Fi

[Drilling Man]

But I do understand DM's point concerning the 30-06 having the right speed for him.

  My point is, the 308 doesn't have enough case capacity to push 200 grain bullets fast enough to meet my mininum for the biggest big game, the 30-06 does...  I don't need something bigger because the 30-06 is already enough.  YET, with lighter bullets it is fine for deer sized animals just like the 308win. is.
 
  If you are a deer hunter, it doesn't matter, if you will ever go for the bigger animals (read big bears/moose ect.) then the added case capacity of the 06 alows the use of the best BIG game bullet of all, the 200NP at a decent velocity.
 
  I won't shoot from this county into the next, so i don't need any more velocity than the 30-06 gives.  I may be old and broken down, but i'm NOT so lazy that i'm not willing to actually "hunt" and stalk closer for my shot.  IF i choose to be a "sniper", then i'll stick to paper or steel targets!
 
  BTW, If you like to light load, and you think the 308 can do something the 30-06 can't, then i suggest you need a 30-30 or maybe a 30 carbine instead of "trying" to make a case for the 308 being better than a 30-06.
 
  Bottom line: 30-06 does it all, the .308 ALMOST does it all... 
 
  DM

[nomosendero]

But I do understand DM's point concerning the 30-06 having the right speed for him.

  My point is, the 308 doesn't have enough case capacity to push 200 grain bullets fast enough to meet my mininum for the biggest big game, the 30-06 does...  I don't need something bigger because the 30-06 is already enough.  YET, with lighter bullets it is fine for deer sized animals just like the 308win. is.
 
  If you are a deer hunter, it doesn't matter, if you will ever go for the bigger animals (read big bears/moose ect.) then the added case capacity of the 06 alows the use of the best BIG game bullet of all, the 200NP at a decent velocity.
 
  I won't shoot from this county into the next, so i don't need any more velocity than the 30-06 gives.  I may be old and broken down, but i'm NOT so lazy that i'm not willing to actually "hunt" and stalk closer for my shot.  IF i choose to be a "sniper", then i'll stick to paper or steel targets!
 
  BTW, If you like to light load, and you think the 308 can do something the 30-06 can't, then i suggest you need a 30-30 or maybe a 30 carbine instead of "trying" to make a case for the 308 being better than a 30-06.
 
  Bottom line: 30-06 does it all, the .308 ALMOST does it all... 
 
  DM

Yes & that makes sense. As I said from the start, I like the 30-06 better for bigger stuff, but the 308 for most other things.
My occasional use of a 300WM has nothing to do with lazy, nor does it for many people. I have never shot at an animal beyond my capabilities. I don't maintain an eliteist attitude of knowing the ranges others should shoot. If anyone starts going that way I will shut this on down.

[scootrd]

I don't shoot my '06 anymore (except last weekend to finally use up all my old green box ammo). Will be probably quite a while before I take it down and use it again.

Does anyone remember 30-06 Accelerators ? are they still around ?  I thought they were kinda a kooky idea when they first came out.  If I had wanted or needed a varmint rifle I certainly would'nt choose an '06.

Was just wondering if anyone ever tried them ?

[Ranch13]

99% of the reloading manuals and data around will show the velocity between the two cartridges with 200 gr bullets equal to negligible.
Still boils down to cartridge and rifle of choice.

[Ranch13]

Scooter, yes I tried both the remingon factory stuff and the sabot components. Fairly decent accuracy could be had, but it's sort of akin to cast bullet shooting, you can't just dump some powder in the case and seat a bullet like with jacketed, it takes a bit of trial and error to find the best combination. Also the newer the rifle or the lesser amount of throat wear the better.

[Drilling Man]

99% of the reloading manuals and data around will show the velocity between the two cartridges with 200 gr bullets equal to negligible.
Still boils down to cartridge and rifle of choice.

  Really?  The new Nosler maunal doesn't even show a 200 grain load for the 308...  The rest of mine show the .308 lagging behind quite a bit, like the Speer #12, it shows the .308 Win. 200fps BEHIND the 30-06...
 
  What manuals do you have?
 
  DM

[nomosendero]

99% of the reloading manuals and data around will show the velocity between the two cartridges with 200 gr bullets equal to negligible.
Still boils down to cartridge and rifle of choice.

  Really?  The new Nosler maunal doesn't even show a 200 grain load for the 308...  The rest of mine show the .308 lagging behind quite a bit, like the Speer #12, it shows the .308 Win. 200fps BEHIND the 30-06...
 
  What manuals do you have?
 
  DM

Come on now guys! Gotta go with DM on this one. The heavier the bullet, the more difference, yea closer to 200fps in the ones I have shot with 200's. I don't use a 308 to shoot 200's.
 
Again, what will the rifle be used for?

[Ranch13]

Yeh I could go thru and pick and choose loads as well, and come up with some that show the 308 ahead of the 06.
I have rifles in both chamberings and their real world affectiveness on anything from tincans and paper targets to mean nasty beasty's is negligible.
 Pick your cartridge pick your rifle and go forth and have a blast. Then grab a rifle in the other cartridge, a chronograph and go get some eye opening experiences...

[Drilling Man]

Yeh I could go thru and pick and choose loads as well, and come up with some that show the 308 ahead of the 06.
I have rifles in both chamberings and their real world affectiveness on anything from tincans and paper targets to mean nasty beasty's is negligible.
 Pick your cartridge pick your rifle and go forth and have a blast. Then grab a rifle in the other cartridge, a chronograph and go get some eye opening experiences...

  I didn't pick and choose, i looked at top loads for both.  The .308 lags behind 200 fps...  Again, what load manuals do you have?  Cause i have a pile of them going way back and i'll check it out.
 
  DM

[Ranch13]

Take alook in the load books, Lyman 48, just for starters.
 Then get real with the comparisons, and then take a look at any good ballistics tables, and see if you really really think that the bit of difference on paper will really show up on game?
Then stop for a minute and ponder, if you're doing something with a 30 cal that absolutely has to have a 200 gr bullet, wouldn't something like the 300 H&H or Weatherby be even more suited? But quite frankly if I was so scared to go out and go forth with a 30 cal loaded with a 200 gr bullet as the quarry was so mean and nasty, I'ld really opt for something a bit more sufficient for the job and hand , and those calibers all start with a .4
For anything normal folks either cartridge the 308 or 3006 will do a terrific job on any game animal the North American continent has to offer. Both have a long track record of prooving that out. Period , endo of story. the rest is mostly symantics from there on out, and an excercise in either lack of experience, or a severe case of cabin fever and nothing better to do...
 
 

[Drilling Man]

Take alook in the load books, Lyman 48, just for starters.
 Then get real with the comparisons, and then take a look at any good ballistics tables, and see if you really really think that the bit of difference on paper will really show up on game?
Then stop for a minute and ponder, if you're doing something with a 30 cal that absolutely has to have a 200 gr bullet, wouldn't something like the 300 H&H or Weatherby be even more suited? But quite frankly if I was so scared to go out and go forth with a 30 cal loaded with a 200 gr bullet as the quarry was so mean and nasty, I'ld really opt for something a bit more sufficient for the job and hand , and those calibers all start with a .4
For anything normal folks either cartridge the 308 or 3006 will do a terrific job on any game animal the North American continent has to offer. Both have a long track record of prooving that out. Period , endo of story. the rest is mostly symantics from there on out, and an excercise in either lack of experience, or a severe case of cabin fever and nothing better to do...

  Actually, i have seen the difference on big game, having shot 25 + moose and several brown bears i can say from EXPERIENCE that the 30-06 loaded with 200NP's does the job, and the 308 with that same bullet is less than i'm willing to use.
 
  I prefer to use the manual for the bullet i'm loading, but at your suggestion i pulled out my Lyman #46 as i don't have a #48.
 
  It shows the 200 grain bullet:
 
  308 Win at 2,517 fps at 50, 400 pressure. 
 
  30-06 2,638 at 48,400 pressure
 
  SO, the 06 is more than 100 fps faster at lower pressure  AND that's closer than my other manuals show...
 
  Where's the 99% equil you stated eariler??
 
  I stand by the 200 fps difference and i'll take that 200 to the field knowing that i have an advantage with it.
 
  DM

[corbanzo]

Watching a moose get hit with a standard .308 load... then watching them get hit again... and again....  is stupid.  Believe me. 


.308 is a fantastic deer rifle.


But you get a .30-06, that can push a 180grn+ bullet in the high 2000's all the time and break a moose shoulder and anchor him...  then you don't have to deal with that situation.


But, all you guys arguing here, I'm sure the biggest game you've ever seen was a "giant" 300 pound whitetail...  which hell a .220 swift would take care of all day.


.308 - Great caribou round!  Because they are like deer.


Even if we are only talking 200fps for velocity, that is a 400ftlb difference in energy up at 180 grainsish.  If I'm shootin something big..... moose, elk, bears, I'm gonna want every single little bit of that energy.  It's all about bones!  Shooting something in the heart and lungs is great... but animals still have minutes to run from.... (or to) you, in which they can cover lots of ground. 




Speaking of speed and energy, you guys seen the claims for hodgdon suprform for 30-06???  Holy....., within normal pressure ratings it is pushing a 165 grain bullet at 2974, that's before I compress their load.   


I've never seen that powder anywhere.  But when I do if tests come positive I'll let you know.

[SHOOTALL]

I don't shoot my '06 anymore (except last weekend to finally use up all my old green box ammo). Will be probably quite a while before I take it down and use it again.

Does anyone remember 30-06 Accelerators ? are they still around ?  I thought they were kinda a kooky idea when they first came out.  If I had wanted or needed a varmint rifle I certainly would'nt choose an '06.
 
yep , got a box still have some I think. You can still buy sabots and load your own.

Was just wondering if anyone ever tried them ?

[corbanzo]

Accelerators were an interesting idea..... but you might as well just buy a .25-06.  I've shot a few boxes of them.... they were inaccurate as all hell. 

[superd]

  I own both but I rely on the 06 the reasons are as follows; I have owned several 308s and have yet to own one that will shoot as well as my 06. Currently my 308 is the same make and model as my 06. So if I have to carry a ten pound rifle either way it may as well be the one that gives better accuracy and more(no matter how small) power.
 Most ballistic charts are made with rifles of 308 and 30-06 in 22 or 24" barrels. A common 308 choice is a lightweight sporter with pencil barrel that is carbine length barrel and as the barrel gets shorter the velocity drops therefore making the power difference bigger. Now there are conditions and times when I prefer to carry the lighter smaller gun. Yes I now own a full size 308 that is a backup or camp gun and my light gun is a 260 Rem

[Swampman]

Not many .30-06 sporting rifles weigh 10 lbs.  My scoped Model 700 with a 24" barrel weighs less than 8.

[corbanzo]

Yeah, my remmy is right under 7.5 scoped......