Pay vs education

[SHOOTALL]

In our country education is placed on a high importance level. All parents are taught that they must/should send kids to college . Kids are taught to get that education no matter what the sacrifice. Colleges look more like mills turning out product instead of insiyutions of learning.
 Is this costing to much in relation to the good it does ? Are we spending to much on education with little return in many cases ? Kids pay to get educated and expect higher pay. But do they in many cases really justify the pay when non college grads can do the job as well ? This places stress on the entire system.

[Brett]

I think a college degree gives an individual a better chance of getting their foot in the door that's all.  Once in the door the individual still needs to prove their worth in most cases.  It can also be used as another bargaining chip when negotiating a salary/raise.

For most people I think a college degree is a good investment.  Is it a necessity though?  No, some rare individuals have enough drive, fortitude and  smarts to make it on their own.  Take Steve Jobs for instance.

There are many examples of people like Jobs who have been very successful in business without college educations. However as I pointed out these are not your average people.  It takes a special person with a special mind set to make it.

On the flip side a college education does not guarantee one success either.  Unles you are born with a silver spoon in your mouth hard work and perseverance are the common denominators to success.     

[guzzijohn]

The other advantage to education is less unemployment:


http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm


GuzziJohn

[turk762]

I think education is the next bubble to burst. You already see the writting on the wall, on the news they always talk about the difficulty of college grads getting employed. If education is so valuable these kids would be picked up right away.
 
In both my and my wife occupations there is a flood of people with educations trying to get in. For my job when they take apps, it is nothing to see 100-200 people apply for one position. All have varing degrees from associates to bacholars. I know more that are working with associates then Bacholars so the more education arguement is out te window, at least in this case.
 
In short, at least where I live, the martket is flooded with people with educations and no jobs that are related to their degrees. May be it is different else where.
 
Every Menards here a flooded with people working with degrees ranging from nursing to master degrees in computers and business working for $9 a hour with lots of student loans to pay, pretty hard to convince me or them that if you get a education you get a good job.

[Brett]

Turk,  Do you believe that those with just a high school diploma or GED are finding it easier than the college grads to find jobs? 

It's hard to argue with this:



I do see a couple disturbing trends which bump up the number of unemployed college grads:

1) Resent college grads are unwilling to start on the ground floor and work their way up.  They expect to land six figure VP positions just because they have a sheep's skin.  They refuse to accept jobs in the mail room or an assistant to an assistant position.

Like I said in my first post the diploma gets your foot in the door, you still have to prove you belong there.  If they are willing to do whatever is asked of them and do it well they usually would not stay in the mail room for long.   Workers are a big investment for a business they want to be sure an individual is worth investing in before they go all in.

2)  The proliferation of recreational drug use.  I hear it all the time from business owners - better than half of all job applicants cannot pass a drug test and these are college graduates applying for high paying positions.

[guzzijohn]

For what ever reasons many people go for advanced education without looking at the end result, is the degree needed and wanted? My step daughter thought that she wanted to either become an elementary school teacher or a speech pathologist. She would be great at either. I told her to think about it, as an elementary teacher she would have anywhere from 50-100 other applicants to compete against for most job openings. As a speech path she would be in high demand and besides working in the schools she can work in hospitals and nursing homes too. She will start her graduate speech path program next fall.  The other area that to many overlook is the one year certificate programs in everything from Air/heat, to railroad jobs, heavy equipment operation, etc. Good employment can be had in these areas with one year of schooling. I was lucky enough to complete a full vo-tech auto mechanics program while still in high school. Then obtained a  BSE in special education and later a masters which was and still is a high demand field. Although I never worked as an auto mechanic I did a lot of light mechanic work in the college parking lots for cash as a college student and at one time between professional jobs I worked in tire and auto parts sales. More education and skills that you have the better off you are.
GuzziJohn

[Empty Quiver]

A person needs to understand an education does not necessarily mean an employable skill has been learned. I started college with the intention of entering the forestry industry. At an early point I learned that roughly 30 percent of the graduates ( this college was rated #2 at the time ) went on to work in their chosen field. The School of Ag had a much better placement figure, I changed my studies. What I did not understand but soon learned is that the ag field has enough jobs because they pay lousy ( a chemist or geneticist or salesman, working in ag is a different story).
 
Now I am as well educated a truckdriver as you are likely to meet. My education has served me well in many ways, not professionally though.

[Conan The Librarian]

Coupla things:
1) The charts are usually prepared as sales material for higher education. Notice that the chart above omits trades like plumber, electrician, diesel mechanic, marine mechanic, etc. Those are good jobs with low unemployment and high demand. They also appeal to a lot of people who don't thrive in an academic environment. That's a serious omission.
 
2) Money is only one component of compensation.
 
3) Most of those high school dropouts are doing pretty well in their later years. They have homes, cars, take vacations, are reasonably secure. What's the problem?
 
4) The problem is often health. More highly educated people tend to be healthier and live longer.
 
5) College education is a criterion for employment in many areas, so anyone without the degree, despite the fact that they might be very good at it, is eliminated from selection. This means they don't have access to the higher paying jobs.
 
6) On a personal note, my daughter is going into debt for a degree in a field where unemployment is high, young people are favored and the only older people in it have their own businesses, and more experience does not translate to higher value in the work force. For this, she will have a life of poverty as she strugggles to pay back all of her loans, denying herself a house, good car, vacations, etc. In other words, she has fallen into a trap of her own construction.
 
 
 

[Old Fart]

The secret to making a college education payoff is choosing a field with job potential.
 
Degrees in working fileds = good jobs.
Degree in silly fields = no jobs.
 
Health & Engineering graduates pick thier jobs. 

[Conan The Librarian]

But therein lies a trap that is fortunately easy to get out of. Studying engineering is one thing, doing it for a living is something else altogether. However, if you study engineering, you can easily move into another field. If you study fine arts, you have much less mobility.
 
I know lots of people with engineering degrees who have never held an engineering job, and never wanted one. But they knew they would find good careers.

[BUGEYE]

Trade schools will get you a good job.  probably not making 6 figures but steady work and it can pay off handsomely when it comes to maintaining your own home.

[Brett]

But therein lies a trap that is fortunately easy to get out of. Studying engineering is one thing, doing it for a living is something else altogether. However, if you study engineering, you can easily move into another field. If you study fine arts, you have much less mobility.
 
I know lots of people with engineering degrees who have never held an engineering job, and never wanted one. But they knew they would find good careers.

Very true.  As a perspective employer I would look for hires who can set goals and are willing to put forth the effort to attain them.  Common sence tells me someone who has earned an engineering degree falls into this category.  If I were looking to fill an upper level job position even if it were not specifically for an engineer I would likely favor someone with the engineering degree over someone with less education.     

[SHOOTALL]

I think either I was poor at giving my point ( most likely) or some didn't understand . Try again, of course there are needs for educated people . But how many ? When I was in college in the mid 70's started at a small private college they always enrolled about a third more students that they had room for comfortably. By fall break they had sent home or students had quit so the roster was cut by a third. They did this to get money . I think stuff like this goes on big time. Also more people are educated than the market needs. On the flip side for years the market could pay the extra now it can't . The pay I'm talking about is not the pay the college grad gets but more to the point what products and services cost and the extra we as consumers PAY for them to support these over educated employees . Accounting offices often only hire grads when much of what they do is what a clerk can do. Construction is full of grads who could not get a job in their major. In many cases after graduation they still have to learn to do something woth being paid to do.

[Brett]

Deleted double post.   Server is giving me fits today.   

[SHOOTALL]

I have nothing aginst those who use an education but so many do not . Colleges are big business now the sports at some universities are almost on par with some pro teams.

[Brett]

In many cases after graduation they still have to learn to do something woth being paid to do.

I think your last statement says a lot and is very true.

[Old Fart]

Really all I was saying is before you pick a major, check to see what job prospects there are. Not necessarily saying everyone should go to school to be a doctor or engineer. There are all kinds of education opportunities out there. Look for something you think you might like, check on jobs, go for it.
 
One of the biggest mistakes people make is not looking at thier interest when considering education. We've all heard the saying "Find work you enjoy and you'll never work a day." or something to that extent. While you may never find that job that doesn't seem like work, enjoying your work goes a long way.

[briarpatch]

An engineering degree will usually weed out a lot of the incompetent because it is not an easy degree. Where as liberal arts is easy and almost useless.
To me, when it comes to education either go big or go home because you can do better in trade school. 

[jbmi]

I was an administrator at a vocational high school. Our students wanted to graduate with a skill along with a HS diploma. We offered about 18 different programs from welding to computer programing. We also offered co-op for our seniors by placing them in industry their last semester. These students usually were offered full time employment upon graduation. A large number of this students came to us because they did not like traditional booklearning that went on back at their HS and started our programs without ever thinking they would go on to college.
About half of them ended up working full time, many making salaries close to what we were paying their teachers, (which was very good).
The others decided they would continue their education at a Technical College earning either an AS or a BS in their chosen field. Most of these colleges offered work related courses that led to full time employment at a much higher level than someone without the degree.
Some of the HS grads got jobs in the trades that offered apprenticeships and after a few years became journeyman and made as much as the college grads.
A college education is not ment of everyone, but having a skill makes all the difference.

[SHOOTALL]

An engineering degree will usually weed out a lot of the incompetent because it is not an easy degree. Where as liberal arts is easy and almost useless.
To me, when it comes to education either go big or go home because you can do better in trade school.

I work with engineeres all the time and can assure you there are some incompetent ones and some very arrogrant ones and sometines it's the same guy. Then there are the ones who are good and they are a pleasure to work with .

[Shu]

I am an engineer. I have to agree there are many who think they are smarter than everyone else and they are always right. 
 
What I learned is work hard,do good work and get rid of any sense of entitlement. Don't be afraid to get your hands dirty or help clean up. Listen to those experienced journeyman. A 4 year degree does not replace 20 years of experience.

[SHOOTALL]

I am an engineer. I have to agree there are many who think they are smarter than everyone else and they are always right. 
 
What I learned is work hard,do good work and get rid of any sense of entitlement. Don't be afraid to get your hands dirty or help clean up. Listen to those experienced journeyman. A 4 year degree does not replace 20 years of experience.

You would be a pleasure to work with . I have been in the trade for 40 years and trust me when an eng.  gets to uppety there are ways to trip them up . Best way is do exactly what they draw or spec. I worked with a really good eng on several jobs and the first job had some really tight places to run pipe . The first time I called him to inform we could not run pipe as drawn he said well I draw it all with the same pencil and it fits then you come along and use different size pipe what do you expect . We both laughed and he said work it out , make a sketch , send it to me and I will change the drawing and I owe ya lunch. Great guy and good eng.

[Victor3]

Q: What title is granted to the lowest performing student graduating from each medical school in the US every year?


A: MD

[magooch]

Technically, my job didn't require a college degree, but I do not regret getting the degree.  And to be truthful, the degree was secondary to learning some of the skills and knowledge that made my job more rewarding.  What I really learned in school was that I didn't know everything there was worth knowing.  When you're 22, fresh out of the military and think you've seen it all and done most everything, it takes a little attitude adjustment and that's not so easy when you're content that you are the answer to every employer's needs.
 
Well, that confidence and some luck got me hired for a job that I didn't know a thing about, but I thought I'd give it a shot.  To my surprise, the job was interesting and challenging and I thought it would be worthwhile.  Boy, am I glad I stuck with it.  That was when the years of training--including getting the college degree--got started.  Along with the academics, I learned that you can never have too many skills.

[Shu]

I always let a journeyman tradesman look at my drawings before finalizing them. Saves alot of embarrassment. The folks in the field have some good ideas, I don't mind buying lunches or bringing in donuts. Now as a supervisor I try to cultivate an environment of education be it on the job, proffesional courses or college courses. One of my lead journeyman a guy much smarter than I will ever be and harder worker makes about 30K less a year becuase he doesn't have that degree. Yes when that guy speaks about ways to do things my note book comes out and I chew junior engineers out for not taking notes. (Education regardless of how gained is still education)
 
On average a college graduate does make more but if a person is great at their trade they are great and worth every penny. I worked with a couple of the old school millrights coming up. When they say sweep the floor thats what you do, when they start to teach you pay attention grab a note book and start writting.

[Sourdough]

I was not able to go to college before I joined the Air Force.  The AF made me a Plumber/Pipefitter.  Turned out to be a good trade, that paid well.  While in the AF I went to school and got an Associates in Management, and a Bachelors in Aviation Administration.  I did not work in the area of my degrees due to making good money as a pipefitter. 

My neighbor moved up here from Michigan.  I had known him while he was in the AF, and he was in a good career field.  But he was known as a XXXXup and he could not do anything right.  They kicked him out, and he went down hill from there.Two marriages and seven kids later he moved up here to Alaska, and bought the house second door from me.  He was working himself to death to support a wife and four kids.  He worked 12 to 16 hours a day six days a week, in the trade the AF trained him in, Diesel Mechanic.  The constant impact from the large Pneumatic tools damaged both wrist to the point he had to quite.  he decided to go to school.  He got his Engineering degree, and became a Civil Engineer.  He graduated last spring, and started work during the summer.  He came over to visit a few weeks ago and was telling me he should have done this years ago, but he was too stupid to realize how much it would change his world.  He now makes more working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.  Than he has ever made in his life, working 12 to 14 hours a day 6 days a week. 

His two oldest daughters also went to college, one is an Arbitrator with the State of Alaska, the other one is an AF pilot.  The youngest daughter decided not to go on to school after high school, she hates her job.  All she can find is working in a Child Day Care Facility.  The boy also decided not to go to college, but he went to a trade school.  He became a Mechanic.   One year at an Auto Dealership, one year at the John Deere Dealership, then he got hired at the POGO Gold Mine to run mining equipment.  He makes more than any of the rest, and loves his job.  He said it's like going to work and playing with big Tonka Toys.

I can go on and on about how the people with College Degrees are usually doing better than the ones without a degree, but the main thing is there is a differance.  But like my son said, you have to pick a marketable course of study.