Fatal Cannon accident

[Double D]

http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/homemade-cannon-blamed-in-explosives-death/article_cd337cdc-b538-58ce-bd2b-1c3ed1c94857.html

Another "pipe cannon we shot for a long time without a problem" blows up and kills a man.

Also comment  from an unqualified law officer in the field that is wrong---he is not aware of the Antique exemption.   A County Deputy Sheriff should never offer opinions on laws he is not trained on.  Just reinforces what I always say, never rely on an Officer in the field for legal advice.  With 34 years as a Law enforcement i know all to well what little the field officer knows.

[Doc Brown.]

This is very sad.  I hope that 50 caliber rule is not for real.

[Artilleryman]

Loaded with rocks, as in more than one? 

[Doc Brown.]

Why did the police confiscate and energy bill?

[Double D]

This is very sad.  I hope that 50 caliber rule is not for real.

No! A county Deputy Sheriff doesn't know what he is talking about.

[Double D]

Why did the police confiscate and energy bill?

Probably evidence in utility theft.

[JeffG]

I would guess that there are a number of issues being sorted out here: a man died, was it a homicide?  Was this a negligent death?  Was this a dress rehersal for a terrorist or other illegal act? Will the police investigation be used as evidence for pending lawsuits or life insurance claims? Are ther other things going on here like a meth lab or marijuana grow? And who told that deputy he could speak to the press, he hasn't been briefed....

[Androclese]

This is definitely about more than just a poorly made cannon, it seems there may have been some things going on there, and the cops finally had an excuse to go in and search. As to the cannon itself, I recall reading accounts about guns coming apart ,and the feeling was always one of surprise.  Cannon usually do work just fine until they don't.

[de_lok]

This is definitely about more than just a poorly made cannon, it seems there may have been some things going on there, and the cops finally had an excuse to go in and search. As to the cannon itself, I recall reading accounts about guns coming apart ,and the feeling was always one of surprise.  Cannon usually do work just fine until they don't.

At the end of the article  a list of things "found" in his home included a homemade suppressor which was probably not registered. And yes you can register a homemade suppressor if a form 1 is approved first, and your state law allows it. That is obviously why the feds were involved, and you are probably right about the cannon giving them the excuse they needed to search. If this is true it is to bad black powder cannons get all the bad press...................
 

[Joey V.]

Very sad...


What I don't understand is this ATF statement that was made:


Siegle said such a device that has a bore diameter greater than a half-inch is considered under federal regulations to be a destructive device and is not exempt from registration in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. A records search showed no registration of the cannon by the owner, he said.

Might this be the case if the cannon was not patterned after a once historic one?
JV

[de_lok]

Why did the police confiscate and energy bill?

Good question, usually it's the DEA recovering energy bills. Like another said, meth or pot, and unusually high energy bills go togather.
 
 
 

What I don't understand is this ATF statement that was made:
Siegle said such a device that has a bore diameter greater than a half-inch is considered under federal regulations to be a destructive device and is not exempt from registration in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. A records search showed no registration of the cannon by the owner, he said.

Might this be the case if the cannon was not patterned after a once historic one?
JV

Actually this is a sheriff's department statement. Siegle is a detective for the local sheriffs dept. (according to the article), he was "also a member of the task force". He obviously doesn't know the facts about cannons. The person writing the article probably ment "joint task force", as rarely do the feds carry out these types of operations without going thru local law enforcement. Whoever wrote this article didn't take the time to get the facts strait, or was listening to anyone who would talk. A big clue, notice how the assistant US  Attorney declined to comment on the case. There was definately more going on here than the cannon. It didn't even belong to the guy that was killed, yet he (Ullom) was the target of  investigation. If the cannon was the focus of this investigation why was the owner ( the pipefitter) not searched? 
 
 

[Double D]

Very sad...


What I don't understand is this ATF statement that was made:


Siegle said such a device that has a bore diameter greater than a half-inch is considered under federal regulations to be a destructive device and is not exempt from registration in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. A records search showed no registration of the cannon by the owner, he said.

Might this be the case if the cannon was not patterned after a once historic one?
JV

Read the story again  Joey, That is not an ATF Statement.  The  Guy who made that statement is a County Deputy Sheriff on an ATF Task force.  He is not an ATF Agent and he doesn't know what he is talking about.

[Joe111]

He put rocks in it??
Being that I spent a lot of time in that area,
This Seizure list:
"Items seized during the search included an energy bill, a homemade silencer,  rifle powder, an empty container of muzzle loading powder, a shotgun and a  shotgun shell, court records said"
 
Is really lacking. I dont know a single person that dosent have a dozen long guns, assorted shot guns, at least a dozen hand guns, a few millitary style rifles and a pallet of ammo in the living room.
 
The guy really must have be up to something.


 

[WindElevation]

I wonder if they ran out of black powder and were using smokeless.

[Artilleryman]

I wonder if they ran out of black powder and were using smokeless.

I was wondering the same thing.  In a lot of cannon incidents like this more than one thing was done wrong.

[shred]

If they are seizing stuff like that, it would seem they're going for a drugs+guns or a felon-in-possession or some such.  The cannon has very little to do with it.

[Artilleryman]

Probably seizing anything questionable and then let the court system sort it out.

[SHOOTALL]

Why did the police confiscate and energy bill?

prove who was leasing or was paying for the house so they could prove who was responsible for the illigal stuff.

[SHOOTALL]

Being in the trade for 40 years I have seen such cannons built . Most were fueled with ACY/OXY mix. and rocks were the main projo. What most did was place a rag in the bore then fill with rocks. Push it in . Most had a wealded cap with a small hole in it. They would take a torch with a cutting tip and place it in the hole and turn on until they heard the rocks start to be pushed. They would then light the torch and place near the hole. I saw one as small as 2.5 in SS pipe made in app. class at the tech center and one 4 inch sch 40  made on a job site . I pulled up about the time the 4 ibnch bomb was being loaded. When shot it took out the windshields in several cars about 400 yards away. I was leaving as it went off and it was destoried as quick as police were comming from several directions. Big Big mess . I don't know cannons well but I have worked with pressure and pipe all my working life and can say alot of common things are bombs if not use correctly and safety installed. This might sound strange but a pipe is a container and when you pressurise it at some point either the pressure has to escape or the pipe burst. Reilef valves are the common  safety. Thing about relief valves is they must have enough open area for the amount of pressure you create to escape. If you over load the pipe even in some cases pressure can be made faster than one open end of the pipe can pass.
 You think like someone said they used smokless or just made that one charge a little stronger ?

[Doc Brown.]

Being in the trade for 40 years I have seen such cannons built . Most were fueled with ACY/OXY mix. and rocks were the main projo. What most did was place a rag in the bore then fill with rocks. Push it in . Most had a wealded cap with a small hole in it. They would take a torch with a cutting tip and place it in the hole and turn on until they heard the rocks start to be pushed. They would then light the torch and place near the hole. I saw one as small as 2.5 in SS pipe made in app. class at the tech center and one 4 inch sch 40  made on a job site . I pulled up about the time the 4 ibnch bomb was being loaded. When shot it took out the windshields in several cars about 400 yards away. I was leaving as it went off and it was destoried as quick as police were comming from several directions. Big Big mess . I don't know cannons well but I have worked with pressure and pipe all my working life and can say alot of common things are bombs if not use correctly and safety installed. This might sound strange but a pipe is a container and when you pressurise it at some point either the pressure has to escape or the pipe burst. Reilef valves are the common  safety. Thing about relief valves is they must have enough open area for the amount of pressure you create to escape. If you over load the pipe even in some cases pressure can be made faster than one open end of the pipe can pass.
 You think like someone said they used smokless or just made that one charge a little stronger ?

I think they was using black powder. A bore that large plus pipe usually always equals death. When combined with a welded end cap it always equals death.  Someone needs to let the tech schools and welding schools know that pipes aren't for making black powder cannons. that way hopefully less pipe fitters and welders will die in the future. 

[SHOOTALL]

I don't disagree but then you must consider the punt guns that were inch to inch and a half that were bars of iron twisted around a mandrel and hammer forged together that shot from a 1/2 lb to a pound and a half of lead shot over an equal load of course black powder. These guns were used in the US for market hunting waterfowl and some are still used in England ( hopefully with better bbls) . After the ga was restricted to 10 ga in this country several of these guns were built with steam pipe by placing smaller pipe inside larger pipe and filling the void with lead. Often a grease fitting was used as a nipple and a musket cap was placed on it and hit with a small hammer. These facts are collected in a book named OUTLAW GUNNER . So it would seem the crazyness is not new. Can you imagine laying over the breech of such a gun in a small skiff and setting off the charge with a hammer on a cold dark night alone ? How many never came home ?

[Androclese]

I don't disagree but then you must consider the punt guns that were inch to inch and a half that were bars of iron twisted around a mandrel and hammer forged together that shot from a 1/2 lb to a pound and a half of lead shot over an equal load of course black powder. These guns were used in the US for market hunting waterfowl and some are still used in England ( hopefully with better bbls) . After the ga was restricted to 10 ga in this country several of these guns were built with steam pipe by placing smaller pipe inside larger pipe and filling the void with lead. Often a grease fitting was used as a nipple and a musket cap was placed on it and hit with a small hammer. These facts are collected in a book named OUTLAW GUNNER . So it would seem the crazyness is not new. Can you imagine laying over the breech of such a gun in a small skiff and setting off the charge with a hammer on a cold dark night alone ? How many never came home ?

 You tube has a variety of videos about Punt guns, for some reason the system does not allow me to paste a link.