Why don't most gun owners seem to understand the right to bear arms?

[Conan The Librarian]

Here's a little reminder that the second amendment has nothing to do with the abuse of "arms" by citizens. It is all about ensuring that citizens have "arms" so they can fight back against tyranny.
 
The constitution has nothing to do with murder and citizens fighting against citizens. By exclusion, that was left to the states.
 
So what do the states do? They have a system of variously effective enforcements and punishments against crime. And also a set of laws like concealed carry permits that have to do with reducing crime.
 
Can the states ban guns? No, because the second amendment forbids interfering with allowing the people to arm themselves against tyrants.
 
Extending to the threads here of the past few days, if baseball bats and hammers are considered arms, those can't be banned either.
 
Rather than wallowing in the mud with people who insist on banning guns, just say "We can't." Explain why, then make some examples about tyranny. Then shift the argument to crime prevention. The issue is what works, what doesn't, and how can crime be prevented.
 
As for the use of guns in crime, the US leads the world. Most of the mass shootings in civilized countries occur in the US. No other country even comes close. The availability of guns is a major contributor to this, and to deny it is simple special interest dogma.
 
But look at uncivilized countries, where tyrants rule, and you see that an unarmed populace is essentially helpless against government or tyrannical thuggery. That's what the second amendment seeks to prevent.
 
As for these mass shootings, there are too many rewards to stop them. Each such story dominates the news and it has become an industry. Compare this to the way Irish Republican Army bombings where handled during the 1970s and 1980s. The news policy was state the simplest facts of the matter, and never attribute the bombing to any organization, and never to mention the names of the perpetrators. This policy was instrumental in breaking the back of the IRA. It could work here too.
 
 
 
 
 

[BUGEYE]

Great ideas, but this country is ate up with rabid antis who will never listen and  they refuse rational dialogue.
the media that ended the religious war in Ireland is not the same as the bunch we are forced to listen
to.

[Conan The Librarian]

The issue seems to be whether this is a state or federal issue. All I'm saying is that it's a state issue. And a crime issue. Not a constitutional issue. Until the debate is shifted into that context, then it will never be constructive.
 
This means that anyone saying "let's ban guns" is missing the point. It also means that by being weak in this regard, pro-gun people are engaging an argument that is framed by their opponents. In other words, they lose the debate before it begins. Pro-gun people need to frame the debate.
 
The NRA, being very Washington-centric, seems to have no vested interest in actually solving the problem.

[308Win]

History Lesson,When the Government is the only possessor of guns,you'll find yourself in a pile of sheet.,

[BUGEYE]

This prez said that the constitution was a flawed document.  my concern is a scotus appointment that would swing the court toward the left.  then the 2nd would be judged to mean organized federal militia, meaning obamas brownshirts.

so then what happens to state constitutions??  I'm glad that I live in Ga but that may not protect me and my guns.

[SharonAnne]

The Constitution and the Bill of Rights may be flawed, but it is the best in the world. The prez has no authority to do anything regarding change in the Constitution.

The "Executive Orders" are illegal. No where in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights is such power authorized in the office of president.

BTW, what part of "not be infringed" do they not understand.

[Redtail1949]

yep now the lefties are really pounding that the constitution is outdated and must be "updated" to reflect modern times. they start that rant everytime that old dusty document gets in their way. sad thing is they just might pull it off. too many of todays world that can vote have no background in the nations history. the left started that years ago and now it is about to pay off for them. that is they changed what was taught in schools. they no longer honor George Washington, Thomas Jefferson. nad so on. they do not honor they great military men of our history nor pay tribute to the many many untold tens of thousands service men and women that served this nation when the future was dark and bleak. those that saw to it that this nation survived through the darkest of times. yep that was the plan and after 20-30 years of little by little eroading our schools they are now ready to push for their agenda full tilt. it was their plan and it just might work now in these times. the constitution as a founding document was relagated to the status of a dusty old tired outdated document in our schools and so we have what we have today.

[336SC]

Another consideration is that the 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with hunting as the Left Wing Politicians are screaming now that an
AK-47 is not a deer hunting rifle so let's ban them.  If thise bozos ban semiautomatic firearms, they won't stop there.  I'll NEVER own an AK-47 but I'll die fighting for anyone else's right to own one.  When I took the oathe of enlistment into our military, I swore to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States from all enimies, foreign and domestic.  The Muslim in charge now wouldn't know the Constitution of the United States if it fell on him.  We all better beware of this United Nations small arms treaty he is gonna sign.  It he signs the UN treaty he will effectively usurp the Constition and the 2nd Amendment since it is sovereign treaty.  This will happen post haste now because of massacre in CT and the boys in the House of Representatives and the Senate are sure to ratify it.  The UN proposed treaty effectively denies US Citezenry the right to own any small arm and as reported on Coast to Coast AM the  other night, there are supposedly over 400,000 Soviet troops on our soil right now ready to go door to door and confiscate all our small arms becuase the head Muslim thinks U.S. troops won't obey that order of confiscation.
336SC

[SharonAnne]

To have a LEGAL Constitutional Amendment 2/3 of the States must authorize it by votes in each State.  The dictator in chief cannot do it by an Executive Order. Such orders have no Constitutional authority. However the Senate has never had the guts to declare them illegal, null and void.

I have full faith our military leaders will not act on illegal orders to disarm US citizens. It will be up to them to counter the illegal presence of foreign troops once they fire on Americans. While militias can run a covert war on the Blue Helmets it will take American armor and air power to eject them. I hope we have enough Patriots in the Joint Chiefs to make it work.

[336SC]

SharonAnne,
Thanks for your reply and I apologize for all my spelling errors in my previous post but I was so PO'd I was typing trying to keep up with my agitated brain!


That UN treaty on gun control has to be defeated.  I hope you are correct that our military will act in our (we the citizens) favor when the time comes. 


336SC

[SharonAnne]

336SC, I reread your post 3 times and found no spelling errors. But who cares about spelling as long as the word meaning comes through.

The Senate must ratify any treaty. The obamanation illegally residing in the Oval Office cannot unilaterally sign a treaty. But hey, most of what he has done is illegal, including getting elected to the Office of President.

[lgm270]

Most gun owners don't understand their rights for the same reason most white people  have accepted 2nd class citizenship:  They've been intimidated and brainwashed.

[SharonAnne]

whites need to realize that we ARE NOT responsible for the plight of minorities. Without the industry built by whites the current technology in the USA would not exist. We are not responsible for NEGROS, yes negros, just as we are CAUCASIANS. We are not white. We are kind of pasty pink.

When the Native Americans of the Plains first saw Negros they called them 'black white men'. 'White men' were just the new invaders.

When  the Inuits first heard of "White men" they expected us to look like snow. They called us 'Red men'.

To much of the USA they were Niggers, then they were Negros, then they were Colored, now they are Black.

Minorities are lucky to reside in the USA where the poor have houses and cars.

I was in therapy many years ago. I  worked as an RN in the inner city of Detroit. Most nights I was the only 'white' person in the hospital. This is were I learned bigotry. Not on my part but on the part of the 'black' Nurse Aids and LPNs and RNs. They really felt 'entitled'. When I asked my therapist about it she said it usually took three generations of College education before that attitude disappeared and they just worked for what they got without feeling the 'white man owed them'.

Where it not for slavery, invented in and alive and well in Africa, they would all be living in Africa with all that entails.

WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE TROUBLES OF MINORITIES.

WE ARE NOT SECOND CLASS CITIZENS.

[lgm270]

whites need to realize that we ARE NOT responsible for the plight of minorities. Without the industry built by whites the current technology in the USA would not exist. We are not responsible for NEGROS, yes negros, just as we are CAUCASIANS. We are not white. We are kind of pasty pink.

When the Native Americans of the Plains first say Negros they called them 'black white men'. 'White men' were just the new invaders.

When  the Inuits first heard of "White men" they expected us to look like snow. They called us 'Red men'.

To much of the USA they were Niggers, then they were Negros, then they were Colored, now they are Black.

Minorities are lucky to reside in the USA where the poor have houses and cars.

I was in therapy many years ago. I  worked as an RN in the inner city of Detroit. Most nights I was the only 'white' person in the hospital. This is were I learned bigotry. Not on my part but on the part of the 'black' Nurse Aids and LPNs and RNs. They really felt 'entitled'. When I asked my therapist about it she said it usually took three generations of College education before that attitude disappeared and they just worked for what they got without feeling the 'white man owed them'.

Where it not for slavery, invented in and alive and well in Africa, they would all be living in Africa with all that entails.

WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE TROUBLES OF MINORITIES.

WE ARE NOT SECOND CLASS CITIZENS.

Well said! 

Yours is a great voice  on  behalf of a formerly great people.

With leaders like you and voices like yours,  that people will rise again.

 

[SharonAnne]

leader? me? you are kidding right?

hurting quit a bit this morning. Spinal Cord Stimulator shut off. Battery got too low. I don't think about how much it does for me when it is on but hoo boy, when it is off I am very aware of the pain it blocks. It will be another 1-2 hrs to charge it up. Mean time, ouch.

[lgm270]

leader? me? you are kidding right?

No. Not kidding.

[SharonAnne]

WARNING-THIS IS VERY LONG AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SHOOTING. FEEL FREE TO SKIP. I WILL NOT BE UPSET.

Before anyone asks, or is polite enough to not ask, I went into therapy to deal with the stress of Nursing School. BTW, I went to college at the age of 40. Most do not know but to remain in Nursing School you must maintain a C average. This should not be tough but for NS all across the country a C starts at 80%. For every other discipline that is a B. I have maintained that by skewing the grades they deprive Nurses of the Scholastic Honors they have earned. Just say you have to maintain a B average for heavens sakes!

Anyway among other things I had a girl in my study group proposition me. Yikes. So, stressing about grades, getting propositioned, and guess what, I failed a class by 0.75%.  So I had to wait a year to reapply to take the class.

I went into a deep funk for months, then I threw my self into working at the gun club. We were trying to get dirt from a tunnel excavation and to have space to put it we needed to clear trees and brush. I spent over 100 hrs driving the clubs old Oliver diesel tractor with a brush hog on it. When the gear box trashed itself on a Friday afternoon of a long weekend I went out and bought a new one. Brand new. At the next Board meeting I told them they could buy mine or fix the old one. Since about 20 acres of grass needed cutting NOW they bought it.

When the time came around I reapplied for the failed class and went on to pass and eventually graduate. Final grades are posted at 8am. only your student number is used, no names. I was so scared I waited until late afternoon to go look. As I approached the Nursing building, from around the corner came my best buddy from Nursing School. I don't know how she knew what time I would be there but she said she wanted to be there for me when I got the news, good or bad. Now THAT is a friend. I passed.

Oh another thing, if you fail any TWO classes during Nursing School, even the liberal arts classes, you are out, permanently. You cannot reapply, EVER! Yeah, stress, squared and cubed.

Even after writing my NCLEX exam, the national Nursing Exam I could not relax or get interested in anything I enjoyed, even shooting.  Most do not know but every State uses the exact same exam for RNs. Mine was the first for mandatory use of the computer. It is an interactive program. It increases the difficulty of the questions as you get them right. It decreases the difficulty if you get them wrong. You can pass, or fail, in 75 questions. You can also pass or fail in 275 questions.  As I said, interactive.  There was a data base of 6,000 questions then. Many more now. I remember getting question 75 and thinking, 'well there is the minimum'. A couple of minutes later the statement, "this exam is completed" came on the screen. Turned out I was the only one of my study group to go past 75. It does not tell you if you passed. In a couple of weeks you get your Nursing License or a letter telling you that you failed.

I was unable to relax after passing. I could not find a job locally so wound up in Detroit. 72 miles one way for work. That is where I was the only 'white' staff member at night. Now I had the stress of not only being a new RN, but I was a supervisor sort of. I had to monitor 2 LPNs. THAT was not mentioned in NS! I was terrified.

It took a couple of years for me to get sorted out. Turned out I needed medication. My brain was lacking a neurotransmitter that allowed me to be happy. Go figure. I had to go off it for some reason once and at my follow up with my Dr. she asked how it went. I just looked at my partner who gave a one word answer. "BITCH". Now say it very low and stretch it out beyond 2 seconds. SharonAnne is not a happy camper without that little pill. It is no big deal to take since I take so many to deal with the pain and neuropathy from the spinal damage. My brain is still not back to where it was before the surgeries. I am no where near as smart as I was and my memory is kinda swiss cheesed. It really distresses me.

There you have it, why I was in therapy. The Encyclopedia Brittanica version. Seems I am incapable of the Readers Digest version of anything.

[Mike in Virginia]

That lack of neurotransmitter is very real.  Mine was not found until I was in my 50's.  What a difference once the medicine kicked in.  I didn't know how unhappy I was until I found it. 

[reliquary]

The problem with the US Constitution, as with any law, is that is only means what the courts...especially the various Supreme Courts... have interpreted it to mean.  Commonsense interpretations by citizens are just opinions, not laws.
 
Only recently has the Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment applies to individuals, and if we get another Obama liberal to replace on of the conservatives, that can be overturned in a new round of lawsuits by hoplophobes.

[Hairy Chest]

Great ideas, but this country is ate up with rabid antis who will never listen and  they refuse rational dialogue.
the media that ended the religious war in Ireland is not the same as the bunch we are forced to listen
to.

It is the media versus the 4 million law abiding gun owners.  We need to build a wall separating the American people from the flea bitten tribe.   

[SharonAnne]

  lgm270 what is it that you read that has you seeing me as a leader?  I know I write and express myself fairly well. I suppose that may be seen as potential leader material. Martin Luther King Jr. is famous for his speech " I HAVE A DREAM''.  How far would it have gone if what he really said was " I GOTS ME A DREAM"?  Or was heard on national tv to say " I want to ax you a question"?   The ability to express oneself in clear well spoken/written English is important. It is not the only requirement for leadership. 

Being photogenic is pretty much required. Look at John Kennedy. Frankly I am a mutt. Words I have, looks I have not.

[lgm270]

  lgm270 what is it that you read that has you seeing me as a leader?  I know I write and express myself fairly well. I suppose that may be seen as potential leader material. Martin Luther King Jr. is famous for his speech " I HAVE A DREAM''.  How far would it have gone if what he really said was " I GOTS ME A DREAM"?  Or was heard on national tv to say " I want to ax you a question"?   The ability to express oneself in clear well spoken/written English is important. It is not the only requirement for leadership. 

Being photogenic is pretty much required. Look at John Kennedy. Frankly I am a mutt. Words I have, looks I have not.

Most whites  have been on their knees for most of my life.  Any white who rises to his/her feet and acts like a  human being instead of grazing like  some kind of  livestock... is a leader.

You openly speak for white rights.  That makes you a leader, unlike brainwashed white sheep who mumble platitudes about "all people are equal."  No they're not.  Whites are not equal because whites are forbidden from organizing to advance our own race's interests.  Every other race has the right to do this.

All our lives we've been told that "Race doesn't matter" and now we're told that only race matters, as browns, blacks and Asians pool their numbers to out vote us, dispossess us and ultimately to exterminate us.     

Only whites are forbidden to  organize and work for  our  existence and a future for  our  children.  Both political parties openly work to bring in more 3d world primitives to take our jobs, dumb down our schools, bankrupt our health care system and  transform our communities into 3d world slums.   

Whites:   Unite or be dispossessed and  killed.   Race matters to everyone else and if it doesn't  matter to you, you're  doomed.   

[Hairy Chest]

  lgm270 what is it that you read that has you seeing me as a leader?  I know I write and express myself fairly well. I suppose that may be seen as potential leader material. Martin Luther King Jr. is famous for his speech " I HAVE A DREAM''.  How far would it have gone if what he really said was " I GOTS ME A DREAM"?  Or was heard on national tv to say " I want to ax you a question"?   The ability to express oneself in clear well spoken/written English is important. It is not the only requirement for leadership. 

Being photogenic is pretty much required. Look at John Kennedy. Frankly I am a mutt. Words I have, looks I have not.

Most whites  have been on their knees for most of my life.  Any white who rises to his/her feet and acts like a  human being instead of grazing like  some kind of  livestock... is a leader.

You openly speak for white rights.  That makes you a leader, unlike brainwashed white sheep who mumble platitudes about "all people are equal."  No they're not.  Whites are not equal because whites are forbidden from organizing to advance our own race's interests.  Every other race has the right to do this.

All our lives we've been told that "Race doesn't matter" and now we're told that only race matters, as browns, blacks and Asians pool their numbers to out vote us, dispossess us and ultimately to exterminate us.     

Only whites are forbidden to  organize and work for  our  existence and a future for  our  children.  Both political parties openly work to bring in more 3d world primitives to take our jobs, dumb down our schools, bankrupt our health care system and  transform our communities into 3d world slums.   

Whites:   Unite or be dispossessed and  killed.   Race matters to everyone else and if it doesn't  matter to you, you're  doomed.

Race is what brought down the Roman Empire, a multicultural cesspool. To keep the army strong it had to import Germans who were built for fighting.  The other races of Romans were desk jockies or field laborers.  So when the Germans from the north attacked, they were met by other Germans.  Thus was the end of the Roman Empire.  What is the spirit of the American man?  Does he have the strength like the Germans, or is his blood too diluted?   

[Hairy Chest]

Most gun owners don't understand their rights for the same reason most white people  have accepted 2nd class citizenship:  They've been intimidated and brainwashed.

Whites have been brainwashed by the Jews.  The Jews run the media. 

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-stein19-2008dec19,0,4676183.column