our wonderful republican govenor

[scootrd]

I think the right to work law is a way for people to free load on unions , for one the fed gov. already has a law that says you don't have to join a union if you don't want to, and all you would have to pay is agency fees which are for bargaining contracts and if they have to represent you , etc.....

Yep

[Drilling Man]

  If i don't want to work in a place where there is a union, i should be able to just say "i don't want to be in the union".  I've worked in union shops before, NOT ONE would give me that choise...
 
  DM

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess with that thought in mind i should be able to go to work in any job and demand what sallary i get too. If i dont like the lunch or break scedule i should be able to change that too. What if im applying at a place and dont like the supervisor im going to work for. Do i have the right to have him fired because i personly dont like it.  If you dont want to work in a union shop DONT. Last i knew nobody made anyone apply for a job at a union workplace.  Go look somewhere else thats not union. Last i heard walmarts hiring and there non union. Bottom line too is any union workplace has the right to throw the union out if the majority of the workers vote that way. I dont see that happening very often. So what you obviously want is to be able to come in as a new guy and change everything to fit what YOU want not what everyone else wants. I look at it a bit differnt. Why should a politition be able to come into my workplace thats union and wants to be and change it to non union without even a vote by the employess or even a vote by the general population. If you cant see theres a bigger agenda that these rich polititions have then you might want to open your eyes. All this is is the rich making the rich richer! By backing it your just putting more power in the hands of these crooked polititions and out of the hands of the workers. Like was said in michigan you allready had the right to not pay union dues. Do you think you really deserve to come into a new job and pay nothing for the contract your fellow workers fought and paid dues for for 40 years??? Id say fine to the whole thing if your willing to come into a job at a lower scale of pay and fight for your own raises but thats not what the people i know that fought for the right to work want. They want it  ALL and want it given to them. Funny thing is some are blind enough to think that big buisness is going to actualy give it to them.

  If i don't want to work in a place where there is a union, i should be able to just say "i don't want to be in the union".  I've worked in union shops before, NOT ONE would give me that choise...
 
  DM

[Drilling Man]

  You are missing the big picture...  Who says i want to change anything?  I just want the right to choose if i want to be in the union or not, and from what i'm reading it's no wonder you guys are scared!  Where workers have a choise,  guys are dropping the union right and left...
 
  NOW, "if" the unions are so wonderful, wouldn't those same guys be lineing up to get in the union???  If the union was so great, this wouldn't even be talked about, everyone would join and it would be a non issue!!
 
  NOW we have a choise, and the only ones crying like babys are the union workers...  THAT, tells you something right there!  You guys never seem to have an answer for that...
 
  DM

[Lloyd Smale]

yup were angry allright. Guys with your thought train want to benifit from everything weve fought for through our whole carreers and want it handed to you without even supporting those who sacraficed to get it by paying our dues. Like i said ive got no problem if you want to walk into a union shop and work non union. Just dont expect union scale wages and benifits or us to fight for your raises for you. When the owner of the company decides he doesnt like you and decides to can you just for personal reasons,  or he just doesnt like the way you look, or you want to stand up for fair pay for what you do like a man, or his son in law wants your position dont come cry to me. the unions ARE far from perfect, thats a given but there still the ONLY organization that stands up for the rights and fair treatement of the middle class. Only one this legislation helps is the wealthy. Im sure every big buisness owner in the state is jumping up and down and cheering and trying to figure out what hes going to buy with all the money hes going to save when he can pay you 12 bucks an hour and take away all your benifits and not a single sole can even fight him over it. It doesnt benifit me anymore as im retired so youd think id want to get rid of them myself hoping that prices drop when the cost of labor falls. But i wasnt born yesterday. Youll never see the price of a car or any other product thats union made drop one dime. All its doing is lining the stockholders and managments pockets and bashes any hope that my grandchildren that possibly wont be able to afford college will ever get a job that pays enough to be able to afford to buy there own home or own a decent car. If you think it will only effect the union workers hold on to your hat. When wages drop to a level that the average man cant own a home or buy a new car off the assembly line hes working on what do you think will happen to the auto industry in the long run and our state.   A few existing big shots will get rich and wont care if the companys fold 10 years from now. Dont worry though the japs will step in and sell cars to the well off. Do you not understand that its the middle classes taxes that pay for our state goverment. What happens when less people make a far wage. Do you think the rich are going to take up the tax slack. If so ive got a bridge to sell you. It will be YOU! You will make less and get taxed more. Yes unions needed to get with the times. Its there fault too. But this legislation will eventually ruin this state and hurt each and every one of you. Only ones that possibly could be for this thats looked at the big picture are the wealthy who will make more and the 12 dollar an hour worker that is just plain jealous that the doesnt have a good job and wants everyone else drug down on his level. 

[Drilling Man]

  Lot's of "do you think's" in there...
 
  What i "think" is, you haven't answered my questions...    (Well, LOT's of whineing in there too)
 
  ONCE again, if the unions are so good, why aren't folks flocking to join them???  Right to work would mean NOTHING, "if" folks were flocking to join!
 
  DM

[45-70.gov]

  If i don't want to work in a place where there is a union, i should be able to just say "i don't want to be in the union".  I've worked in union shops before, NOT ONE would give me that choise...
 
  DM

you have the option  of opening a non-union shop....if not something is really wrong

[Lloyd Smale]

ill turn your question around and ask where are all the union workers that are flocking to non union jobs?  Ill ask you also how many union shops have problems getting workers? Lots of people out there standing in line for a good union job. If you doubt that go to your local union hall and try to get on a list for a position. Anymore in my field as a lineman they wont even talk to you unless youve allready completed schooling at your own expense. Ill guarantee you one other thing. I wont be the last one wining. Wait till your grandchildren are taking jobs that require them to apply for food stamps to feed there familys. Funny how people can care less about something that effects there neighbor but not them until it hits closer to home. Like i said that vote wont ever effect me. Its the young people who will suffer for it. 

  Lot's of "do you think's" in there...
 
  What i "think" is, you haven't answered my questions...    (Well, LOT's of whineing in there too)
 
  ONCE again, if the unions are so good, why aren't folks flocking to join them???  Right to work would mean NOTHING, "if" folks were flocking to join!
 
  DM

[Drilling Man]

  OK, i get it...  You can't or won't answer my question...  AND i know the reason why...  lol
 
  DM

[Lloyd Smale]

funny i didnt see an answer to my quetion in your response! Looks like you are the one avoiding answering. I answered yours. Theres waiting lines at union halls for union jobs. My neighbors kid just got excepted into the steal workers union and got a job. They had 125 people testing and 30 got excepted.  Go and ask at a union hall  for job if you doubt it. the local lineman school that a young man has to pay for himself before he will even get considered for a job at any union line posistion around here has a one year wait right now to even get in the program. Not to worry though as non union lineman dont need that schooling. They pay much less and will take about anyone. Especially if your friends or related to the boss. Id about bet GM, ford, and chrysler dont have any problems filling those union positions. Not to worry for your grandkids though as last i heard walmart will take about anyone. Looks to me like your question is answered. People ARE flocking to union jobs. Its not the union people who hate the unions its the people that are envious of them that want unions crushed. Ask the guys i worked with how many are dumping the union when they can. theyll laugh at you and good luck to the idiots who try to come into there shop without joining. there in for a long hard road. At least until this legislation does what its real intension is. Not to give you a choise but to totaly break the unions so the rich can get richer.

[scootrd]

Havent found 2011-2012 stats however here are 2010-2011 stats

The number of unionized workers increased by about 50,000 to nearly 14.8 million members in 2011.
Despite the membership gains, unions' share of the overall workforce fell, from 11.9% to 11.8%, as state and local governments trimmed thousands of jobs to address budget shortfalls. That's the lowest percentage of union workers since the Great Depression in the 1930s.
Unions saw losses of about 61,000 workers in government employment. But they grew by 110,000 workers in the private sector, mainly in construction and health care. Despite that growth, unions still represent just 6.9% of all workers at private companies, unchanged from 2010.
Among full-time wage and salary workers, the median weekly earnings of union members was $938, compared to $729 for nonunion workers.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/workplace/story/2012-01-27/union-membership-growing/52817346/1

[Lloyd Smale]

dont worry scootrd the guys with blinders on or who have there own agenda will probably argue this too.

Havent found 2011-2012 stats however here are 2010-2011 stats

The number of unionized workers increased by about 50,000 to nearly 14.8 million members in 2011.
Despite the membership gains, unions' share of the overall workforce fell, from 11.9% to 11.8%, as state and local governments trimmed thousands of jobs to address budget shortfalls. That's the lowest percentage of union workers since the Great Depression in the 1930s.
Unions saw losses of about 61,000 workers in government employment. But they grew by 110,000 workers in the private sector, mainly in construction and health care. Despite that growth, unions still represent just 6.9% of all workers at private companies, unchanged from 2010.
Among full-time wage and salary workers, the median weekly earnings of union members was $938, compared to $729 for nonunion workers.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/workplace/story/2012-01-27/union-membership-growing/52817346/1

[Drilling Man]

Union Membership Plummets in Wisconsin
By: Brian Sikma
Unions in Wisconsin are no longer delivering enough value to their members to cause members to voluntarily stay with the union. Union membership in public sector unions in the state has plunged since Governor Walker and legislative conservatives enacted collective bargaining reform last year. According to a front-page story in today’s Wall Street Journal, 34,073 AFSCME members left the union in Wisconsin over the past year. The paper notes that most of that decline came from state workers deciding they no longer wanted to pay union dues.
 
http://mediatrackers.org/2012/05/31/union-membership-plummets-in-wisconsin/

[Lloyd Smale]

wisconson is one state! Granted a good sized one so id have to ask how many new people joined  unions in that same amount of time in wisconson. I dont see them adding that to there anti union story. 37000 people is a pretty minute percentage of the workforce in wisconson. I too wonder how many of those union peole left the union due to pressure from the politions in wisconson, there employers, and fellow anti union workers. The electrical company i worked for was a subsiderary of wisconson public service and beleive me there still union! Heck the football team they about worship there is union too last time i looked!! How many of you union haters watch football every sunday? Dont you understand that your supporting union players when you do   Heres what i see there. the politions had plenty of money to put big oak desks in ther offices, give themselves raises, do stupid projects like planting flowers or saving the wolves but as soon as all there incompetancy caught up to them and they state was going broke rather then admitting they screwed up they turn the working class agianst each other to take the heat off of themselves. Blame that overpaid state tropper or fireman or prison guard who allready stuggle to get buy. Funny thing is that people allways want someone to dump on and most will blindly follow along as long as its not them thats getting cuts. Reminds me of the clan blaming the blacks for everything that was wrong in the south. This is just another form of predudice and jealousy.  Niether wisconson or michigan are going broke because of unions. there going broke because gready politions are selling them out daily.  Never did here you say what you did for a living. Kind of curious whether you fall into the exec.  class that will profit for it or your in the bunch that makes 12 bucks an hour and cant stand someone doing better then you.  Dont worry pal. Im not trying to take away your money. Youll still be able to buy another 20k drilling. All i want is a ruger once in a while and enough money to pay the bills.

[45-70.gov]

Re: our wonderful republican govenor



i doubt a democrat would have done better


and a third party couldn't get elected


the democrats need to be stomp out of existance 


so another party  can have a chance against  the republicans

[scootrd]

Re: our wonderful republican govenor



i doubt a democrat would have done better


and a third party couldn't get elected


the democrats need to be stomp out of existance 


so another party  can have a chance against  the republicans

Actually of Republicans continue to allow themselves to be dictated to by the far right extremest minority splinter of their party  - it is they that will find themselves irrelevant in future elections , will be snuffed out , and will cease to exist as a national party.  It's time for Boehner and the adults of the party to wrestle back control and marginalize these idiotic stepchildren and send them to their rooms without supper.
.

[Drilling Man]

  Boy Lloyd, you sure have a lot to learn about me...  AND not what you are dreaming up either.  lol  NO 20K drillings here and i don't hate unions.  You are just like the union guys around here, like to give sermons and call everyone that doesn't agree with you a hater.  Besides, according to you, unless a person is in the union, they could never afford a drilling.  lol
 
  I've been in the union, and i made my living without them, i didn't and don't hate them, i just don't need them.  Union guys want everyone to believe all non union guys are starveing and it just isn't true.  We are doing just fine without them and the reason why is that WE aren't lazy.
 
  Heck, i've just been doing the "other folks" in the U P a favor.  I've been keeping you busy so you have less time to go out and massacre a bunch of their deer, claiming they ate one too many potatoes, just so you can come here and brag about it.  lol lol  Maybe now "some one else" can put one in their freezer... 
 
  OK, i'm done keeping your puter busy...  lol  Happy New Year to you!
 
  DM

[Lloyd Smale]

yup im evil for shooting deer too. How is it someone who shoots 2 deer in michigan, goes on a trip every year to another state and kills a couple more or an elk any differnt? I donate probably 500 lbs of venison to poor people each year. Real evil that is! You go and buy a bag of potatoes for 10 bucks. Complain at that price but what do you think theyd cost if the deer were eating half of them? What about the guy who goes out and shoots a 100 prarrie dogs in a day? Is he evil too? He doesnt even eat the dogs he shoots, just leaves them there to rot! So i come on here and tell about my experiences to share opinions on bullet performance that might help someone decide that the bullet everyone is bragging on isnt all its cracked up to be and im evil. I think its kind of comical myself. Would you rather listen  to the opinion of someone that shot 1 deer with a bullet or 20?? It bothers you that i shoot so many deer but the funny thing is that not only the farmer but the local hunters and camp owners come up and thank us. Theres to many deer there and we helped even out there buck/doe ratio to the point that there finally getting the oportunity to shoot some quality bucks. Why it would bother someone from down state is beyond my comprehension. Again maybe just a case of someone that cant stand someone else getting an opportunity they cant get.
 
I dont hate non union workers either. Some of my best friends are non union worker. I dont hold it against them just like i dont hold it against you. Among my best friends are a doctor, a lawyer, a mental health worker and a farmer a lumberjack and a fisherman. None of those are union. One thing they have in common is ethics. They are all hard working christian people. They dont make it there agenda to go around preaching that some segment of the people has to much or is lazy or should loose something. They may not agree with unions totaly but know that alot of there services are bought by union dollars. The two biggest employers in this little area are a paper mill and a prison. Both employ union people and are about the only decent paying jobs around and the money put into our economy by these people is the only thing that keeps this from being a ghost town. Even if those employees took a 2 dollar an hour cut in pay it would be devestating to our local ecomomy. I guess though id have a line up around the block at the food pantry to get some of that evil venison then.
 
You need to keep in mind that when your bashing unions your bashing people. Working people. Hard working people is most cases that are proud of there jobs and proud of the fact they earn what they make. If you were bashing a big shot in the union upper crust id probably be right there with you agreeing. Like i said, im not blind. I know unions are far from perfect and part of the reason there dieing is corruption and not keep with the times. But dont think your going to support something that takes away from the livelyhood of a hard working middle class worker without getting some flak for it. Without me telling you who this legislation really does benifit.
 
I dont want to make this personal. I respect you and your knowlege on here when it comes to hunting and guns. You contribute just as much here as i do. Like i said in a previous post were arguing on a forum that is probably the wrong place for this crap. Its just a way to personal subject. All my intentions ever were here was to open a few eyes and hopefully at least one person would see the real big picture. If one guy saw these posts and maybe thought to himself its  not my hard working neighbor who i should be angry with its the politition who is more or less sliding money under the table to his rich buddys. Its not the auto worker who ruined Gm its the gready upper management who ruined it. Funny thing there is Gm made all kinds of money back in the 60s using the same union labor force. the cost of living hasnt kept up with the wages of anyone since then so they were probably actually making more money then. what happened? Greed my friends.

[Dee]

While I think that in many cases unions have become corrupt in the leadership dept, and in many cases because of this, have "outlived their usefulness", the real fact of the matter here, is no one really knows YET, what this new legislation will do to affect the worker, or the work place. As many folks have become DEPENDENT on government, likewise many folks have become DEPENDENT on the unions. i.e. neither group believes that they can function without the latter two organizations.
I see a lot of wringing of hands from the older folks on medicare cuts, welfare recipients getting their benefits cut, and union workers losing their higher than private sector wages and benefits, when most of this really hasn't happened yet.
It seems that the "union worker" doesn't believe that he, or she, can make it without the union, and cannot stand on their own abilities, thus the distress.
Auto workers at both GM, and Chrysler are living on MY MONEY (tax dollars), yet declare that they "deserve" a wage that neither company can sustain. The answer of course is for the auto companies "live within their means" which trickles down to the union worker also tightening their belt, which they are protesting LOUDLY.
In contrast, my company is not being "propped up" by tax payer dollars. It is a "pass or fail", "control spending, or go broke" environment, which it should be. If any one's union leaders are as smart as the member believes them to be, then the union leaders would recognize this, but like every other politician trying to hold power, they are vieing for the union member vote, while driveing the company into the ditch.
There are in most cases, more RETIRED UNION MEMEBERS, than there are WORKING UNION MEMBERS, and your UNION LEADERS, like our GOVERNMENT LEADERS, have squandered your dues on political power buying. THAT ERA IS DYING, AS ARE A LOT OF OTHER FOOLISH, AND CORRUPT, PRACTICES. 
Being REQUIRED to join a union in order to work at a plant, is no different than being REQUIRED to register your guns if you want to buy any. It's just a different entity making the REQUIREMENT, and is, a loss of ones "personal" freedoms in disguise of a better "collective environment".
Bottom line? The law is there. Vote the guy out, and get it changed, or take a "chill pill" and see what happens. In the end, if ANYONE gets MY tax dollar, I think it should be ME! I don't want to pay for abortions, and I don't want to pay for auto bailouts, to save union jobs. And yes, COLLECTIVELY I am, and I don't like it.

[scootrd]

I see a lot of wringing of hands from the older folks on medicare cuts, welfare recipients getting their benefits cut, and union workers losing their higher than private sector wages and benefits, when most of this really hasn't happened yet.

It's been happening for a over a decade . Hence Corporate profits at an all time high and workers wages at an all time Low. (Being discussed on another thread) Right to work really means right to be happy with the scraps off the table of others.

Yes Unions have their problems , but they are one of the only entities workers have to try and receive a fair shake. MGMT never has the best interest of an employee. They do what benefits , shareholders and corporate elite at the top. Unions help promote balance.

Wallstreet is a prime example , bailed them out , and they used the funds to finance junkets and award CEO bonuses for bad behavior.

Hostess was another recent. They raided the pensions of workers , then went to court to seek approval to reward top echelon bonuses and golden parachutes for bad behavior.

I could go on but why bother , we will just need to agree to disagree agreeably about the role of unions to protect the rights of workers and try and provide a proper balance.

[Dee]

So you believe that a union should be able to control the employer?

[scootrd]

So you believe that a union should be able to control the employer?

No .
I believe a union if voted into a workplace by majority of employees has a responsibility to work in partnership with corporate management as representatives of that corporations labor workforce. They serve the employees to ensure all have an opportunity
to fairly share in a corporations success.

Unions are only as effective as it's leadership. A Corporation is only as effective as it's leaderships overall vision and its workers contributions. Stripping union laws , passing right to work laws , leaders who demonstrate an unwillingness to negotiate with labor
so all benefit fairly from hard work and success is just cowardess and self serving. 

[Dee]

So in effect the union thru threats of strike, ect. endevors to take control of businesses. If a union had tried to move in on my business I would have closed the business. If someone doesn't like the way a business is being run, let them quit, and go start their own business.
Anyone whom has stuck their own neck out by, risking their own money, or that of willing investors, deserves to run that business the way THEY see fit. It is no one else's business. An employee deserves to be paid a wage that they accept. Any benefits provided by the employer is extra, and subject to the employers decision to provide or not provide. An hours pay, for an hours work.
I never saw a successful business run by a coward, or a union. I have seen businesses fail when run by both. GM and Chrysler are both perfect examples of corporate, and union failure, and both wanted and got "CHARITY" from the government, at the taxpayers expense, because both corporate leaders are cowards, and the unions are unreasonable bullies, that want something that does not work long term.

[spruce]

I think the real disagreement here is not about union vs. non-union - it's about socialism vs. capitalism.
If someone feels they are ENTITLED to a share of their employer's profits that is a socialist philosophy.  Saying "so all benefit fairly from hard work and success" sounds to me an awful lot like saying "SO ALL GET THEIR FAIR SHARE" (to quote our fearless leader).
 
I just don't see why a business owner should be expected to share his profits with employees.  After all he invested his time and money and took the big risks to build his business and if he fails he will be by far the biggest loser.  The employee, whether union or non-union, is merely performing a job in exchange for a paycheck, and if the arrangement is not acceptable to either party then it is time to go their seperate ways.
 
Let's face it, life isn't FAIR, never has been and never will be.  It's up to each of us as individuals to find peace and happiness.  Blaming someone else is not the answer - unless of course you happen to be a liberal and then it's an acceptable reaction!

[Dee]

I think the real disagreement here is not about union vs. non-union - it's about socialism vs. capitalism.
If someone feels they are ENTITLED to a share of their employer's profits that is a socialist philosophy.  Saying "so all benefit fairly from hard work and success" sounds to me an awful lot like saying "SO ALL GET THEIR FAIR SHARE" (to quote our fearless leader).
 
I just don't see why a business owner should be expected to share his profits with employees.  After all he invested his time and money and took the big risks to build his business and if he fails he will be by far the biggest loser.  The employee, whether union or non-union, is merely performing a job in exchange for a paycheck, and if the arrangement is not acceptable to either party then it is time to go their seperate ways.
 
Let's face it, life isn't FAIR, never has been and never will be.  It's up to each of us as individuals to find peace and happiness.  Blaming someone else is not the answer - unless of course you happen to be a liberal and then it's an acceptable reaction!

Exactly!

[Lloyd Smale]

so in effect you think that minimum wage should be thrown out the door too and sweat shop made legal in the US. Just as many business cry they cant afford minimum wage as complain about union wages. Close your business! American doesnt need and abolished slavery years ago. the biggest problem we have in this country right now is its run by the elite few wealthy people and threres not enough checks and ballances. Yup lets make the same go for our workplaces. Bottom line is the money there risking is money gotten from the sweat of my back or my ancestors backs. It didnt grow on trees. In my opinion if you cant run a business paying a fair wage to your employs its you who needs to hit the road and let your competitor run his business with a little more brains and a little less greed. If believing that i deserver a fair wage for what i do and believing that i should be able afford to own a home and raise my children and actually feed them without food stamps is being a socialist then call me what you want. Id rather be called a socialist then an anarcist.

So in effect the union thru threats of strike, ect. endevors to take control of businesses. If a union had tried to move in on my business I would have closed the business. If someone doesn't like the way a business is being run, let them quit, and go start their own business.
Anyone whom has stuck their own neck out by, risking their own money, or that of willing investors, deserves to run that business the way THEY see fit. It is no one else's business. An employee deserves to be paid a wage that they accept. Any benefits provided by the employer is extra, and subject to the employers decision to provide or not provide. An hours pay, for an hours work.
I never saw a successful business run by a coward, or a union. I have seen businesses fail when run by both. GM and Chrysler are both perfect examples of corporate, and union failure, and both wanted and got "CHARITY" from the government, at the taxpayers expense, because both corporate leaders are cowards, and the unions are unreasonable bullies, that want something that does not work long term.

[Drilling Man]

I think the real disagreement here is not about union vs. non-union - it's about socialism vs. capitalism.
If someone feels they are ENTITLED to a share of their employer's profits that is a socialist philosophy.  Saying "so all benefit fairly from hard work and success" sounds to me an awful lot like saying "SO ALL GET THEIR FAIR SHARE" (to quote our fearless leader).
 
I just don't see why a business owner should be expected to share his profits with employees.  After all he invested his time and money and took the big risks to build his business and if he fails he will be by far the biggest loser.  The employee, whether union or non-union, is merely performing a job in exchange for a paycheck, and if the arrangement is not acceptable to either party then it is time to go their seperate ways.
 
Let's face it, life isn't FAIR, never has been and never will be.  It's up to each of us as individuals to find peace and happiness.  Blaming someone else is not the answer - unless of course you happen to be a liberal and then it's an acceptable reaction!

  You got it figured out, dead nuts on!  I get a kick out of those folks that think they are "entitled" just because THEY said so!  What ever THEY do in OK, and everyone else is wrong....pretty funny!
 
  Any job i had that "I" wasn't happy with, i went down the road to one i liked better.  NO goverment ever had to bail me out, nor did i MAKE anyone give me anything!  I never paid any dues to get what i got, and to be honest, i wasn't lazy so i worked hard and actually, i found it pretty easy to get the things i "needed" in life.
 
  If you go through life with the "i deserve" mentality, life will always be MUCH harder!
 
  NOW, i get to sit back with me 20K drilling and enjoy what i have!  ha ha ha
 
  DM
 
  BTW, i NEVER took food stamps or any other gov handout ever in my live, not even one time, unless you count the small amount of unployment i took a couple times.

[Dee]

so in effect you think that minimum wage should be thrown out the door too and sweat shop made legal in the US. Just as many business cry they cant afford minimum wage as complain about union wages. Close your business! American doesnt need and abolished slavery years ago. the biggest problem we have in this country right now is its run by the elite few wealthy people and threres not enough checks and ballances. Yup lets make the same go for our workplaces. Bottom line is the money there risking is money gotten from the sweat of my back or my ancestors backs. It didnt grow on trees. In my opinion if you cant run a business paying a fair wage to your employs its you who needs to hit the road and let your competitor run his business with a little more brains and a little less greed. If believing that i deserver a fair wage for what i do and believing that i should be able afford to own a home and raise my children and actually feed them without food stamps is being a socialist then call me what you want. Id rather be called a socialist then an anarcist.

So in effect the union thru threats of strike, ect. endevors to take control of businesses. If a union had tried to move in on my business I would have closed the business. If someone doesn't like the way a business is being run, let them quit, and go start their own business.
Anyone whom has stuck their own neck out by, risking their own money, or that of willing investors, deserves to run that business the way THEY see fit. It is no one else's business. An employee deserves to be paid a wage that they accept. Any benefits provided by the employer is extra, and subject to the employers decision to provide or not provide. An hours pay, for an hours work.
I never saw a successful business run by a coward, or a union. I have seen businesses fail when run by both. GM and Chrysler are both perfect examples of corporate, and union failure, and both wanted and got "CHARITY" from the government, at the taxpayers expense, because both corporate leaders are cowards, and the unions are unreasonable bullies, that want something that does not work long term.

Lloyd, I EARNED, and AM EARNING a fair wage, that I raised a family on, and I "PAID FOR A HOME" WITH MINE, AND MY WIFES "OWN SWEAT". Yes Lloyd I PAID FOR MY HOME. I didn't need or want a union boss takin MY, THAT'S "MY" money to go talk to "MY" BOSS FOR ME. I do my own talkin. When I hit rough spots in life, I DIDN"T EXPECT OR GET, a bail out from TAX DOLLARS. You sound like your incapable of taking care of yourself and your family WITHOUT UNION HELP. That's the indoctrination of a SOCIALIST ORGANIZATION, which is what unions have become. They are willing to drive a business into the ground, and bankrupt them to get what THEY WANT.
What a PRIVATE BUSINESS makes in profits is NO ONE'S BUSINESS save the tax man. Just because he made big profits doesn't mean YOUR ENTITLED to them. You got paid for what you did. Your sounding like you think your being picked on. Your not, but your never gonna get me to agree with you on this issue, because you also DON'T deserve my tax dollars to support YOUR life style. Do what I did. Get a second job when need be. Like I said Lloyd. No one, and certainly not me is pickin on ya. Hell, I like ya. I just don't agree with ya on this.

[Lloyd Smale]

I dont see where one cent of my income came from your tax dollars and the point here is that very few union people want unions gone so why should you or some politition be able to decide that for us. I EARNED my wages too. Many nights out in storms and many storms for over 36 hours straight without a bit of sleep. Yup i made a good living. At least compared to most in our area. I think i earned every dammed penny of it too and sure dont need anyone telling me i didnt or that because im a union employee im somehow taking something away from them. I payed for my home with ALOT OF SWEAT! When many run inside to avoid the weather it was just another day at the office to us. Our utility made a profit. Do i think i deserved my fair share of it for what i did to earn that profit. YOU BET YOUR ASS i did. Believe me the stock holders made there fair share too. If you think its ok for a company to make billions and pay minimum wage then ill say a little prayer that all your children are fortunate enough to get one of those wonderful jobs. That way your about guaranteed that there children will fall right in to one too as there sure as hell not going to be able to afford to go to school to better themselves. I chuckle at people who wont join the fight to get better for the middle class. they are like sheep believing what big buisness tells them all the way to the slaughter house. dee like i said i dont really take this personaly either. Id still buy you a beer and probably enjoy the hell out of beating heads with you in person but youll die of old age before you get me to quit fighting the fight for the middle class. Its as important of an issue right now today to the middle class as the gun control issue is.
 
got to back out of this now even though its so much fun. I dont know if its my computer or this fourm but sometimes when i hit the post button or the save button when changing something it takes 2 or 3 minutes to go through. Its agravating and you end up double posting. Anyone else having this problem or is it my computer?

[marlin mike]

LLoyd your wasting your breath on people like drillin. You and I both know your right. I bet you 10 to 1 odds that he owns his own company and pays his workers sqat. But you can be sure he pays himself enough for all his toys and "new Chevy."  Typical business owner you slave for me and I'll throw you bread crumbs. Sorry drillin but its people like you who are killing this country economicly. As for me welll I'm "Union till I die!"