Author Topic: smoothbore rifle (Read 2171 times)

Mike in Virginia · « **on:** December 19, 2012, 01:42:46 PM »

Remember Mark Baker? He used to write for Muzzleloader magazine. Maybe he still does. I remember his rifle was a smoothbore. Built just like a longrifle, with rifle sights, same stock, trigger guard, etc., but it had a smooth bore. .50 caliber I think.
Does anyone know who might build such an item these days? I've had so many custom longrifles, but they were all so dern hard to clean. A fullstock rifled barrel just will not clean up without a lot of time invested each time you shoot it. I've tried the flushing tubes, all the different cleaning agents, but I always spent more than an hour getting the bore to produce a clean patch.
Some say you don't want it perfectly clean; that it should be "seasoned." But I want mine totally 100% spanking clean when I put it away.
So, I've been thinking about a smooth rifle, or even a NorthWest trade musket with just the front sight. They can be had in 28 guage (.54 caliber), but the advertised accuracy is 3" at 50 yards. Seeing as how I don't really have a desire to use shot, and seeing as how I like the lines of a longrifle, what might I do? I keep going back to a smooth rifle, but the only one I can find is Jim Chambers kit, which ain't really a kit at all, but a box of parts. I have trouble taking my gas cap off the truck, so I know I can't put a gun together.
Many years ago, more than 25, I bought a Chambers "kit." It was the early Lancaster style with a 44" swamped barrel, with some cast off in the stock. Someone put it together for me for $500. Lordy did that gun fit me. I wore it out, but instead of having it refurbished, I sold it. I was so sick of cleaning that long barrel.
Any thoughts?

AtlLaw · « **Reply #1 on:** December 19, 2012, 04:08:39 PM »

Quote from: Mike in Virginia on December 19, 2012, 01:42:46 PM

... Many years ago, more than 25, I bought a Chambers "kit." It was the early Lancaster style with a 44" swamped barrel, with some cast off in the stock. Someone put it together for me for $500. Lordy did that gun fit me. I wore it out, but instead of having it refurbished, I sold it....Any thoughts?

Why heck yes I got thoughts!

And you outlined the thought process for them right here in these 5 sentences!

You need to design your perfect longrifle. Then buy all the parts needed to create that rifle: lock, stock and barrel so to speak, and instead of paying someone, build (okay, assemble, but it's really more then that) that rifle you own self!

You need to occupy your mind bro, and you will not believe the therapeutic power of using your mind to make your hands create what the mind envisions. It creates a world you can control while you are in it.

P.A. Myers · « **Reply #2 on:** December 21, 2012, 06:04:22 PM »

I've been building stuff since my first erector set. I totally agree with the satisfaction of making real things yourself. That it isn't for everybody. Do what you do best, hire the rest.

Bugflipper · « **Reply #3 on:** December 21, 2012, 09:06:47 PM »

Ever tried ballistol? It takes me 5 minutes to get a clean patch and doesn't mess with the seasoning. I just use a mop. Pull the nipple and flush it out with water. Put in a patch with more of the foul smelling crap. Then a dry patch and wipe down the barrel with the clean patch after I'm done. Put soap and water on the mop, squeeze it a few times under running water. Then squeeze out the excess and let it dry for the next time. Put the nipple back in and done. I use the hook style breech plug and separate tang, where the barrel comes out easy. Lately I haven't built anything though. Just been playing around with renegades.
For production guns you could look at pedersoli, thompson center and lyman for the quick takeoff barrels. I think cva has them as well but never fooled with one so am not sure. Look at the bottom of page for breech plug style. http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/mbs2cart/agora.cgi?cart_id=1983841.9038&product=Breechplugs
Also there is a fellow on another forum that charges $250 over parts cost and $25 shipping to build you what you want. PM me if you want his website. Heck I imagine you could find someone to build you a kit for that matter if you didn't want to fool with it. Or search for videos on youtube on building a kit before you cut yourself short. Probably is well within your ability.
Have a good one.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #4 on:** December 23, 2012, 03:45:14 AM »

Oh boy, the "smooth-rifle" thing again. I've pondered on that one for most of my adult life. Why would one want a rifle without rifling? Of course it would be good for throwing birdshot but not really a great gun for wingshooting, for that the contemporary fowler would be far better. With birdshot from a small gauge gun with no choke the maximum effective range on small game is going to be 25 yards or less. Since the stock design and sights make wingshooting impractical we assume the smooth-rifle was aimed at stationary targets but for that use a small bore rifle could take the same sitting game, at the same or greater range, while using half the powder and 1/4 the lead. So if we assume the smooth-rifle was intended primarily for firing a single ball then again the question becomes why? What advantage can a smoothbore offer over a rifle when firing ball? I decided to find out for myself. I had played around a couple of years with a new Bucks County .50 caliber rifle but realized that most original Bucks County rifles were actually smoothbores. So I sent my barrel off to Ed Rayl to be bored smooth at .54 caliber. I hate myself! I simply ruined a perfectly good rifle. Oh it shoots 3/4 ounce of number six shot very nicely but with ball it is a waste of powder and lead. I too had heard the claims of "3 inch groups at 50 yards" or "shoots like a rifle up to 75 yards" but let me tell you that has not been my own experience. Whether with this .54 smoothrifle, or with my 20 and 28 gauge fowlers I have never seen consistent, repeatable groups better than 5-6" at 50 yards. I'm not calling anyone a liar, if they say they get rifle accuracy from a smoothbore, well bully for them. I'm just saying I spent a lot of time, burned a lot of powder and slung a lot of lead and I have never yet seen a 50 yard group of five shots that measured 3" or less. I wish I could, I'd not feel such a fool for having spent a hundred bucks to ruin a rifle. I guess what I'm saying is I'd advise you try alternate cleaning methods, not make cleaning your rifle a bigger chore than it has to be, and stick with a rifled bore unless you are happy with paper plate accuracy at 50 yards.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #5 on:** December 23, 2012, 04:38:48 AM »

coyotejoe, maybe your patches were too thin. my brother shoots a 20ga smoothbore and he has to grunt to get to get the patched ball down the barrel, and it shoots great.

Hank08 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 24, 2012, 09:53:08 AM »

Mike in Va. I shoot a lot. I have 7 smoothies and about 20 rifles and my favorite gun is a smoothrifle in .52 cal. I built it from parts about 2 yrs. ago. I shoot mostly round balls and have killed Deer (125 yds.) Cayote (75 yds.) Rockchucks (.50 to 147 Yds.) with shot have taken Grouse and Chuckers to 25 yds. or so. It's flintlock, weighs 6 lbs. has no mid rear sight but I have a small peep that is removable that i use sometimes. I use .490 RB and a denim patch. I won a turkey shoot last month shooting against rifles with it. Here's a pic of it and some rockchucks. H08

Hank08 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 24, 2012, 10:05:32 AM »

Sorry, didn't realize those pics were so small, heres a better pic. I said 2 yrs ago but find it was about 4 yrs. ago when I built it. Cost me about $400, not fancy but a perfect hunting gun. H08 P.S. For cleaning, takes me about 10 min for rifle or smoothie.

Swampman · « **Reply #8 on:** December 24, 2012, 10:32:58 AM »

I beat 40 some rifle shooters with my smoothbore trade gun at a match at historical Mansker's Station one year. If I hadn't had 2 misfires from a soft frizzen I'd have beat them all. They are easier to load, easier to clean, and were common during the 18th century. The first 5 or 6 guns you build will be horrible looking. Unless you want to build for a living, I wouldn't waste your time. Mike Brooks or Jack Hubbard would do a good job. Get a good builder to assemble a Jim Chambers' kit. Jim Chambers can suggest a builder. Ballistol is crap. Use soap and water to clean. Use olive oil for lube and protection.

Jimbow4570 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 24, 2012, 10:43:11 AM »

Take one of the barrels from a longrifle you love, Call one of the Scotts at Colerain barrels. Tell him the exact of dimensions of your barrel and have him make you a smoothbore barrel for an existing rifle, solder tenions, and sites and move on. You could have them dove tail in for sites too if you pay 'em a bit more.
Bet it wouldn't cost more that 200 dollars..........

sixgun_symphony · « **Reply #10 on:** December 25, 2012, 09:30:19 AM »

It must have a rifled bore to be called a rifle. If it has a smoothbore then I would call it a musket, a fowler, or a shotgun.

Swampman · « **Reply #11 on:** December 25, 2012, 10:21:56 AM »

Then you'd be incorrect.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #12 on:** December 26, 2012, 05:45:40 AM »

I still have to take exception to the claim that you can "expect" 3" groups at 50 yards from a smoothbore, I'd say "it might happen" but don't count on it. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just saying I sure regret having ruined my rifle by getting it bored smooth. As I said, I have heard many claims of smoothbore accuracy but neither I nor anyone I personally know have ever actually seen such results. I recall reading an interview with a national champion smoothbore shooter and his advise was "try every load combination you can think of, work with your gun for a year, and if you still haven't gotten good results sell it and start over with a new one". So even this champion smoothbore shooter is admitting that accuracy from a smoothbore is a "sometimes" thing and not something one can count on.

Swampman · « **Reply #13 on:** December 26, 2012, 07:28:55 AM »

Ifyou ever go to a real muzzleloader shoot you'll see smoothbores shoot a lot better than 3" at 50 yards.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #14 on:** December 26, 2012, 11:48:00 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on December 26, 2012, 07:28:55 AM

Ifyou ever go to a real muzzleloader shoot you'll see smoothbores shoot a lot better than 3" at 50 yards.

Just what do you consider to be a "real muzzleoader shoot"? I've been shooting muzzleloaders in competition since 1970 and I still win more often than not. I'm aware that a very few people seem to get exceptional accuracy from smoothbores. Do you know what "exceptional" means Swampman? It means out of the ordinary, not to be expected. Of course anyone can just lie about it.

Swampman · « **Reply #15 on:** December 26, 2012, 11:55:04 AM »

They sure can.......You have to go where the good shooters go. Most can out shoot the vast majority of rifleman......seen it done it.

Mike in Virginia · « **Reply #16 on:** December 26, 2012, 12:06:12 PM »

Lots of good information here. Thank you all. Having researched everything I can find, I'm going with a Pedersoli Hawken in .54. I don't think I could live with 3" at 50 yards from a smoothbore. If that's the best they can do, they ain't for me. I just want an authentic looking muzzleloader that will shoot patched roundballs with good accuracy. The Pedersoli is drilled and tapped for a Creedmore sight, which might take away from the authenticity, but it's good to know the sight can be installed if my old eyes can't see the regular barrel sights in the dim woods.

Swampman · « **Reply #17 on:** December 27, 2012, 01:41:35 AM »

They are good rifles but date to about the 1850. I hear they are accurate.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #18 on:** December 29, 2012, 06:01:52 AM »

Good choice Mike, if you want rifle accuracy you need a rifle.

darkgael · « **Reply #19 on:** December 30, 2012, 01:22:49 AM »

Quote

smooth-rifle" thing again. I've pondered on that one for most of my adult life. Why would one want a rifle without rifling

It'd be interesting to see a thread that discussed the question....not how well they can be shot but more to the point...what makes a rifle a rifle?
Pete

Swampman · « **Reply #20 on:** December 30, 2012, 03:24:59 AM »

Colonial fowlers and colonial rifles have very distintive features. A smooth rifle will have a cheek piece, grip rail on the triggerguard, patch box, and sights. It will have all or most of the features of a rifle but the bore is smooth. This was done to save money and because some gunsmiths didn't have the equipment. Smoothbore guns were much more common than rifles. They were faster to load, faster to clean, capeable of taking small game with shot, and accurate enough with a patched round ball to cut a string or break an egg at 50 yards.

darkgael · « **Reply #21 on:** December 30, 2012, 02:32:16 PM »

Quote

Colonial fowlers and colonial rifles have very distintive features. A smooth rifle will have a cheek piece, grip rail on the triggerguard, patch box, and sights. It will have all or most of the features of a rifle but the bore is smooth. This was done to save money and because some gunsmiths didn't have the equipment. Smoothbore guns were much more common than rifles. They were faster to load, faster to clean, capeable of taking small game with shot, and accurate enough with a patched round ball to cut a string or break an egg at 50 yards.

That bit of history is consistent with what I know... especially the part about smooth bore guns being the more common. I understood, though, that those were predominantly Fowlers.
In any case, it begs the question. What makes a rifle a rifle?
Maybe better answered in another thread.

Bigeasy · « **Reply #22 on:** December 30, 2012, 02:53:55 PM »

A smooth bore firearm designed to shoot a single lead projectile is properly called a musket. Take that same firearm, and rifle the barrel so as to impart spin, and increased stability to the projectile, and its is now a "rifle".

Larry

Swampman · « **Reply #23 on:** December 30, 2012, 04:55:25 PM »

No not really....fowlers, trade guns, and some rifles were smoothbored. A musket is a military firearm.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #24 on:** December 30, 2012, 06:25:16 PM »

Rifeling is what makes a rifle. Lands and grooves in a spirel imparts a spin to the projectile and make the bullet go straiter longer.
As to what a musket is or a rifled musket is up to the dictionary as to military arm or not.
But a smooth bore may give you more options. It will also limit you oprions.
A 50 caliber is also 32 Ga shotgun and should be able to shoot 1/2 ounce of shot as well as a ball. I do not think a patched ball will be accureate as a loose ball or a minie ball that will expand.
The tighter the fit the ball has the more accurate the ball will be but will still be less accurate than a rifle.
It will limit your range and you will need to figure out your max range with a singe projectile.
A 54 caliber is a 28 ga and may be a better choice as a general purpose game getter as it will shoot a little bit more shot for birds and small game and will have a heavier ball for deer.
I have a friend that hunts with 75 and 69 caliber smooth bores. The 75 caliber is inbetween a 12 ga and a 10 ga and the 69 is a 16 ga. He uses both round balls and buck shot on deer as well as loading shot for squirrels and rabbits after his dee tag is filled.

darkgael · « **Reply #25 on:** December 31, 2012, 12:36:32 AM »

To the OP: Btw ...

Quote

Mike Brooks or Jack Hubbard would do a good job. Get a good builder to assemble a Jim Chambers' kit.

+1 about Mike Brooks.

A New England Fowler after #9 in Grinslade's.
Pete

Spanky · « **Reply #26 on:** January 05, 2013, 06:18:06 PM »

Quote from: darkgael on December 31, 2012, 12:36:32 AM

To the OP: Btw ...
Quote
Mike Brooks or Jack Hubbard would do a good job. Get a good builder to assemble a Jim Chambers' kit.
+1 about Mike Brooks.

A New England Fowler after #9 in Grinslade's.
Pete

That's one of the nicest guns I've ever seen.

Spanky

Rock Home Isle · « **Reply #27 on:** January 25, 2013, 04:02:56 AM »

Quote from: Mike in Virginia on December 19, 2012, 01:42:46 PM

Remember Mark Baker? He used to write for Muzzleloader magazine. Maybe he still does. I remember his rifle was a smoothbore. Built just like a longrifle, with rifle sights, same stock, trigger guard, etc., but it had a smooth bore. .50 caliber I think.
Does anyone know who might build such an item these days? I've had so many custom longrifles, but they were all so dern hard to clean. A fullstock rifled barrel just will not clean up without a lot of time invested each time you shoot it. I've tried the flushing tubes, all the different cleaning agents, but I always spent more than an hour getting the bore to produce a clean patch.
Some say you don't want it perfectly clean; that it should be "seasoned." But I want mine totally 100% spanking clean when I put it away.
So, I've been thinking about a smooth rifle, or even a NorthWest trade musket with just the front sight. They can be had in 28 guage (.54 caliber), but the advertised accuracy is 3" at 50 yards. Seeing as how I don't really have a desire to use shot, and seeing as how I like the lines of a longrifle, what might I do? I keep going back to a smooth rifle, but the only one I can find is Jim Chambers kit, which ain't really a kit at all, but a box of parts. I have trouble taking my gas cap off the truck, so I know I can't put a gun together.
Many years ago, more than 25, I bought a Chambers "kit." It was the early Lancaster style with a 44" swamped barrel, with some cast off in the stock. Someone put it together for me for $500. Lordy did that gun fit me. I wore it out, but instead of having it refurbished, I sold it. I was so sick of cleaning that long barrel.
Any thoughts?

I ordered an early Virginia rifle from TVM...It has a curly maple stock and is a 20 gauge smooth bore. I use it as a shotgun, though I have shot a handful of .62 calibre roundies out of it.

Every time that I take this gun afield it has been memorable...awesome fun for small game.

I was cataloging and organizing the books in my library and I came across Baker's 2 volume set....my TVM smooth bore looks just like Baker's Mariah .50 caliber.