Author Topic: .58 caliber Howitzer  (Read 1465 times)

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Offline Zulu

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.58 caliber Howitzer
« on: December 29, 2012, 08:21:19 AM »
I am helping fellow GBO member "Winniewino" with some pictures.  He recently aquired this gun and is interested in any history someone might have. 
It is a rifled .58 caliber steel barrel.  Made in Spain.
He will be posting his description shortly.
Zulu
 

 



 

 

 
 
 
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Offline winniewino

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.58 caliber Howitzer
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2012, 03:01:54 PM »
It a CVA "7th Cavalry" mountain howitzer. It has a rifled bore, presumably from surplus musket stock. I am curious if anyone knows whether this is a musket barrel used essentially as a liner or if it was manufactured as a single piece barrel.

Offline Artilleryman

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Re: .58 caliber Howitzer
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2012, 04:02:17 PM »
If it has a liner you should be able to see a part line between the barrel and the liner.  This looks like a very nice piece.  I find it interesting that this howitzer is rifled when historically they were smoothbore.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline Zulu

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Re: .58 caliber Howitzer
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2012, 05:09:41 PM »
I looked this piece over very closely and could not see any sign of a "part line".  I don't think it has a liner.
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Offline Zulu

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Re: .58 caliber Howitzer
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2012, 12:00:18 PM »
This steel barrel has no liner.  It is rifled.  Isn't this out of the norm for one of these Spanish barrels?
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Online Double D

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Re: .58 caliber Howitzer
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2012, 12:26:52 PM »
No it is standard.

Offline de_lok

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Re: .58 caliber Howitzer
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2013, 07:24:02 AM »
CVA made their barrels in two pieces. The cascabel and barrel can be seperated. The barrel is drilled, reamed, rifled, then the rear is counterbored and threaded to accept a "plug". The cascabel is threaded and srews into the barrel much like a breech plug in modern inline muzzle loading rifles. The plug has a flat face and stops at the vent allowing the vent to be at the rearmost of the bore. Every CVA cannon I've owned small or large has been made this way. This makes them very easy to clean. Many of them were made in the 70's marketed as "Bi-centennial" editions. I have a pic of one of the smaller CVA General Custer Bi-centennial .50 cal smoothbore howitzers. The design elements are very similar.

Offline Zulu

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Re: .58 caliber Howitzer
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2013, 07:51:30 AM »
I found it odd that the capsquare bolts were installed backwards.  The keyed bolt was in the rear.
They are different lengths and can't be swapped front to rear. :-\
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Offline Artilleryman

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Re: .58 caliber Howitzer
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2013, 08:06:29 AM »
I didn't catch that when looking at the photographs before.  That is odd.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline winniewino

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.58 caliber Howitzer
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2013, 05:22:15 PM »
Thanks D-Lok. I haven't tried removing the cascabel yet, but I can see how that would make cleaning easier. It seems to work well with a shotgun cleaning kit also.

Offline de_lok

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Re: .58 caliber Howitzer
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2013, 07:12:50 PM »
Thanks D-Lok. I haven't tried removing the cascabel yet, but I can see how that would make cleaning easier. It seems to work well with a shotgun cleaning kit also.

 ;)

Offline KABAR2

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Re: .58 caliber Howitzer
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2013, 08:54:36 AM »
Thanks D-Lok. I haven't tried removing the cascabel yet, but I can see how that would make cleaning easier. It seems to work well with a shotgun cleaning kit also.
I don't recommend removing it for cleaning we don't remove the breach plug from muzzel loading pistols and rifles to clean them, and if it is loose enough to remove than its not doing it's job..... leave it alone shoot it and enjoy it and clean it like any other muzzel loader.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline de_lok

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Re: .58 caliber Howitzer
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2013, 09:14:54 PM »
Thanks D-Lok. I haven't tried removing the cascabel yet, but I can see how that would make cleaning easier. It seems to work well with a shotgun cleaning kit also.
I don't recommend removing it for cleaning we don't remove the breach plug from muzzel loading pistols and rifles to clean them, and if it is loose enough to remove than its not doing it's job..... leave it alone shoot it and enjoy it and clean it like any other muzzel loader.

They are torqued on pretty tight and should be put back on tight. They were made like this to simplify the manufacturing process, not to facilitate cleaning. If it was ment to never be removed they would have pinned it or silver soldered it. Good ole common sense should be considered when handling any of these cannons, and I agree it should never be fired if the cascabel is loose. :)
 
I clean mine in the traditional manor most of the time but do take it apart on occasion for a more thorough cleaning. I also use TC bore butter after cleaning when I know it will not be shot for a long period of time, and anti-sieze on the cascabel threads. To be honest its not practical or convenient to take apart for cleaning every time...................................

Online Double D

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Re: .58 caliber Howitzer
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2013, 04:49:36 AM »

 
 
They are torqued on pretty tight and should be put back on tight. They were made like this to simplify the manufacturing process, not to facilitate cleaning. If it was ment to never be removed they would have pinned it or silver soldered it. Good ole common sense should be considered when handling any of these cannons, and I agree it should never be fired if the cascabel is loose. :)
 
 

Not correct!  Breech plugs like Gun barrels in  more modern guns are installed and not intended to be removed-except perhaps for repairs.

During the muzzle loading gun era they rarely if ever pinned and never soldered in place. Some old guns have ben found with what appears to be asphaltum on the threads.  Some say this is not asphaltum, rather a residue of black powder fouling and oil the has seeped by the breech seal into the threads.

Breech plugs were installed as a matter of  necessity  as a way close the bore.  When turned in they should have a moderate interference crush fit which seats the face of the plug and slightly stretches and springs the threads for a lock. Casual and periodic removal will eventually stretch the threads enough that they will no longer stretch and lock.

This was something that was emphasized back in College in black powder gun making, that breech plugs should not be remove unless absolutely necessary.  If they were then also consider fitting a new plug.

It is correct these imported cannons have screw in breech plugs as a simplification of the manufacturing process.  These things are made by cutting off a section from a long rifled blank, that is then profiled, tapped and the breech plug screwed in.  If it was intend the breech plug be periodically removed they would have provision for use of a spanner or wrench-they do not.

Offline de_lok

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Re: .58 caliber Howitzer
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2013, 02:28:31 PM »

 
 
They are torqued on pretty tight and should be put back on tight. They were made like this to simplify the manufacturing process, not to facilitate cleaning. If it was ment to never be removed they would have pinned it or silver soldered it. Good ole common sense should be considered when handling any of these cannons, and I agree it should never be fired if the cascabel is loose. :)
 
 

Not correct!  Breech plugs like Gun barrels in  more modern guns are installed and not intended to be removed-except perhaps for repairs.

During the muzzle loading gun era they rarely if ever pinned and never soldered in place. Some old guns have ben found with what appears to be asphaltum on the threads.  Some say this is not asphaltum, rather a residue of black powder fouling and oil the has seeped by the breech seal into the threads.

Breech plugs were installed as a matter of  necessity  as a way close the bore.  When turned in they should have a moderate interference fit which seats the face of the plug and slightly stretches and springs the threads for a lock. Casual and periodic removal will eventually stretch the threads enough that they will no longer stretch and lock.

This was something that was emphasized back in College in black powder gun making, that breech plugs should not be remove unless absolutely necessary.  If they were then also consider fitting a new plug.

It is correct these imported cannons have screw in breech plugs as a simplification of the manufacturing process.  These things are made by cutting off a section from a long rifled blank, that is then profiled, tapped and the breech plug screwed in.  If it was intend the breech plug be periodically removed they would have provision for use of a spanner or wrench-they do not.

Ok, without getting into a long explanation I consulted with one of the engineers at CVA about these cannons(a few years ago). When CVA discontinued them I had an at length discussion with them about reproducing these cannons. I wanted them to be the same. They told me I could reproduce them as exact copies without copyright or patent infringement as long as I didn't have their name or logo on them. We talked at length about the design features and how they were made. The thread class should be 2A and 2B which is industry standard. The metallurgy of these cannons are different than the ones used 150 years ago and are similar not dissimilar making it hard for me to understand "stretching and springing the threads to lock". Use of never sieze prevents corrosion in the threads. Another thing, these cannons are not designed to be fired as service weapons but occasionally for hobby use. I also want to say that if you are not absolutely sure what you are doing I don't recommend taking this cannon apart. :)

Online Double D

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Re: .58 caliber Howitzer
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2013, 03:10:41 PM »

 
  The metallurgy of these cannons are different than the ones used 150 years ago and are similar not dissimilar making it hard for me to understand "stretching and springing the threads to lock". 

Quite simple. When you screw the breech plug in, it is the thread that forces the breach plug forward. When breech face or plug shoulder contact it is the two thread surfaces  moving  across each other that generate the force to cause the face/shoulder into interference crush fit.  This force will stretch and spring the threads.  This is what breaks and strips screws and bolts.  Breech face and shoulder take the interference fit not the threads. 

Class fit usually applies to fasteners not plugs.  Although in theroy a class three fit should be able to generate more force for a greater interference of breach face or shoulder.

Offline de_lok

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Re: .58 caliber Howitzer
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2013, 04:55:33 PM »

 
  The metallurgy of these cannons are different than the ones used 150 years ago and are similar not dissimilar making it hard for me to understand "stretching and springing the threads to lock". 

Quite simple. When you screw the breech plug in, it is the thread that forces the breach plug forward. When breech face or plug shoulder contact it is the two thread surfaces  moving  across each other that generate the force to cause the face/shoulder into interference fit.  This force will stretch and spring the threads.  This is what breaks and strips screws and bolts.  Breech face and shoulder take the interference fit not the threads. 

Class fit usually applies to fasteners not plugs.  Although in theroy a class three fit should be able to generate more force for a greater interference of breach face or shoulder.

DoubleD, you need to go back and re-read fits and finishes concerning screw threads. You are confusing interference fit with torque values. Torque values vary from one application to another. Some "stretch and spring" and some do not, their torque value (which is determined by size and strength) determines this. Interference fits only aply to "press fits". If the cascabel is removed from the above cannon it does need to be properly "torqued" or like I said earlier "tightened". It would be very unlikely to strip the threads from over tightening given the geometry of its thread pitch, that being said there are those out there that can "tare up an anvil"!

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Re: .58 caliber Howitzer
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2013, 06:52:06 PM »
Sorry, I don't  need to to go back an read anything. I just need to use the right term--crush fit.....I'll go back an edit.