Author Topic: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?  (Read 2740 times)

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Offline Swampman

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2013, 03:40:21 AM »
Quote
If its a gun designed for accurately shooting a single ball it's a rifle.
.
Rifle. The name is derived from the presence of lands and grooves (rifling), an element of production which differentiates the firearm from similar guns that do not have rifling.  If there is no rifling, regardless of its efficiency as a firearm, it is technically not a rifle. Calling a smooth bored long gun that has been designed to accurately shoot a single ball a smooth rifle may is a time honored convenience but without rifling, it ain't a rifle.
Pete

Correct it's a smooth rifle.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2013, 08:45:16 AM »
So how does a musket fit into this then? Is it a term to further define a rifle?
 
I'll tell you one thing if I were an early gunmaker without the tooling or skills to rifle a barrel I would be trying to get the word rifle into my own adds. I can hear Isuzu Joe the flintlock salesman approach. Sure its a rifle can't you see the lock here they don't put them locks on fowlers now do they? See that rear sight that sure ain't on a blunderbuss now is it son? This here is the newest rage in rifles, it's a smooth rifle. Yes siree those grooves can be problematic, you see. They will fill up with lead when you use that new fangled smokeless powder coming down the pike, oh it's so hot the bullet just skids past the grooves, we ain't got that trouble here.  ;D  Smooth as a babies bottom, yep smooooth, here feel it yourself, ain't that nice? I can let this one go a bit cheaper seeing as how it's a demo model...  We get another whig in the White House  ;)  you'll be glad you bought one today.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2013, 08:47:31 AM »
A musket is a military firearm without rifling.  A rifled musket is a military firearm with rifling.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2013, 09:10:55 AM »
A musket is a military firearm without rifling.  A rifled musket is a military firearm with rifling.
The military affiliation being the deciding factor?
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Offline darkgael

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2013, 11:58:00 PM »
Quote
Correct it's a smooth rifle.
Almost....it's a smoothbore. Without rifling, it technically is not a rifle...call it what you will. Those five letters define what it is.
Pete

Offline Swampman

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2013, 12:45:36 AM »
No before your grandfather was born it was called a smoothrifle and it still is by those with experience in this hobby.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline darkgael

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2013, 03:33:17 AM »
Quote
No before your grandfather was born it was called a smoothrifle and it still is by those with experience in this hobby.
I understand that. I am familiar with the history. What it has been called is one thing. What it is is quite something else. Long use of an idea does not mean that the idea is correct; such a belief is a form of the fallacy known generally as an Argumentum ad Populum (if a lotta people beiieve it, it must be true); in this case there is more specifically the fallacy of an Appeal to Tradition. (A lotta people have believed it for a long time, so it must be true).
Let me rephrase my original question a tad: What element(s) of construction make a rifle a rifle?
All that being said, I realize that my argument is not going to cause anyone to stop using the term smooth rifle to identify this particular type of long gun.
I get as argumentative about boolits/bullets and using caliber when cartridge is meant. Lost causes there, too.
Alas.
Pete

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2013, 08:23:49 AM »
Quote from: darkgael link=topic=271556.msg1099638555#msg1099638555
date=1357569197
I get as argumentative about boolits/bullets ...

Well alas and alack there Petey poo!   ;D  At least when it comes to that argument your stand would have merit!   8)  Matter of fact I'd join ya!  That boolit crap aggravates me...  >:(  It should stay on the forum that started it!   ;)
 
But I agree with Swampus. At least if he was eluding to what I believe he was.  I believe, as if anyone cares what I believe   ::) , that the term originated with the folk who built these weapons and the folk who were their customers.   :-\
 
Say a fellow goes to see Jacob Dickert in Lancaster, PA..  In discussing the customer's wants for his new firearm, the customer specifies that the bore be smooth.
 
Now, in every other respect the weapon is just like any other firearm this gunmaker has, or will ever, produce!  The length of pull may be different, the carving may vary a bit, the inlays may be different, the calibers may change, or the barrel may be smooth!  Hi-ebber, and day always be a hi-ebber,  ;D to the maker or the customer the firearm is still a rifle made by Jacob Dickert!  Noting that it is a smooth bore is just describing one aspect of the "rifle."  Now or back then!
 
It is not the same as the bastardization of a word like "bullet" (boolits) or "however" (hi-ebber) done for no legitimate reason!
 
Of course I have no cites for this.   :-\  But even if it ain't right, it oughta be and is good enough for me!   ;D
Richard
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Offline darkgael

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2013, 01:12:48 PM »
Yeah...I hear ya. I hear the Swampman, too.  It is another lost cause of mine. I get caught up in the language, y'know. A rifle, to me, means that the barrel is rifled....without that defining element, it is not a true rifle.
You will notice that no one defending the tradition of the smooth rifle actually answered the original question....what makes a rifle a rifle?  The drift there was into what the firearm has been called traditionally over the years that people have been mounting tubes onto pieces of wood. What makes a smooth rifle is, evidently, the fact that people have given it that name for want of a better one. They look an awful lot like my Fowlers, except for the rear sight.
Pete.
PS - Petey poo? Yipe.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2013, 02:38:41 PM »
Yipe.

 ;D
 
I went back and looked at your original post...  I guess the clarification that would have to be made is now or then.   :-\  If we are talking about weapons made now, then I would define a rifle as you do.  If we are talking about weapons made then, it would depend upon the weapon's design features, of which the interior of the barrel is only one.  There are rifles and there are fowlers.  If I look at a period weapon and my mind immediately says longrifle, it's a longrifle, bore be damned!   :P
 
It may not be a true rifle, but it's a true longrifle!   ;)
 
I'd like to build a Fusil Fin Type C but with a 54 Cal Rifled barrel.  Is it a rifled smoothbore rifle or a rifled fowler or a trade gun or is it even still a Fusil?  ???
Richard
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Offline Swampman

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2013, 02:48:04 PM »
There is a rifle at Colonial Williamsburg attributed to John Bullard.  It looks exactly like an English Fowler.  Mike Brooks made me a copy of it.  I'm holding it in this pic.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline darkgael

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2013, 11:11:19 PM »
Great pic.
My own Mike Brooks gun. A New England Fowler after #9 in Grinslade's book.



Pete

Offline Lonegun1894

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2013, 01:51:19 PM »
If we were discussing modern guns, I would say rifling and (for legal purposes only) the type of cartridge used for ammunition (rifle cartridge vs shotgun shell)--even if rifled shotguns severely blur the line with this.  But since we're discussing the much more interesting muzzleloading guns...
 
The way it has been explained to me, and makes sense based on what reading I have done, is that it isn't just the bore being rifled or smooth, but rather the whole of the gun in question and the various characteristics involved.  For example, fowlers tended to have wider and flat buttplates, while rifles tended to have curved buttplates.  Fowlers, or at least most of them, had just a front sight, while a rifle had a front and rear.  So it isn't a matter of just the bore being rifled or not, but a combination of characteristics.  The smooth rifle is a smoothbore built to handle, look, stocked, etc as a rifle would be, but with a smoothbore, and usually of a somewhat smaller caliber than the usual fowler.  Now a musket (rifled or not) on the other hand, is just a weapon intended for military use in those days, and usually built somewhat heavy due to the intent of having a bayonet mounted on it.  The architecture of the stock is much less obvious today with modern weapons due to almost everything, unless it is a replica of an older design, having a flat buttplate and most being designed for scoped use, but there's a lot of people who have a hard time understanding the difference because they think it terms of comparing everything to modern guns, or just what they are used to in terms of older ones.  But it is rare nowadays to meet anyone who actually knows the old guns, and the history and reasons behind them, and even more rare to meet anyone who can speak about them from experience due to having hands on experience with them, weather it is a true antique or a replica.  My smoothrifle is a Lyman GPR flinter with a Green Mountain .54 smoothbore barrel on it.  It is a rifle in architecture, but has a smooth bore.  It handles like a rifle in terms of balance, swing, etc, etc., due to the weight and balance of it, so is not a good design for wing shooting, but is a great little gun for stationary small game like rabbits and squirrels.  Horrible for dove, but great for turkey.  And then there is what it can do with a signle patched round ball when going after deer or hogs.  Granted, I have to pass on the longer shots, where a rifled bore would be much better due to the longer accurate range, but with most of my shots being in the 50-60yd range or closer, the 4" or less groups I get at 50yds are perfectly adequate, and I trust this gun to about 75-80yds to keep all it's shots in the vitals of a deer or hog.  If your shots exceed the ranges I deal with, the smoothrifle may not be for you.  Same if you intend to use it for dove.  But for the hunting I do and the ranges I usually deal with, it is no handicap at all, and has the advantage of being able to take one gun, hunt deer and hogs in the morning, then pull the ball and spend a few relaxing hours going after small game during the day while loaded with shot, and then go back to the ball towards the evening.  Most fowlers aren't as accurate as my smoothrifle with a PRB, and no rifle is as effective with shot as a smoothbore.  So the man armed with a smoothrifle gives up a little accuracy to the man armed with a rifled rifle, but this isn't an issue when you consider the extent or westward expansion in the 1700s til the early 1800s, due to the areas that were "settled".  But the rifle armed man can not load up with shot and expect anything resembling decent patterns, so some of us will keep and carry our smoothrifles, and the rest of y'all can carry a big game rifle and then also lug around either a small caliber rifle or a smoothbore of your choice for those times when you want small game.  This is much easier understood by those with experience with this style of gun, than those who stubbornly stick with having several specialized tools.  Then again, we all need an excuse for a new toy, so maybe y'all who are opposed to these just may have an ulterior motive?

Offline pastorp

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2013, 11:27:55 PM »
I think you summed it up with the word, " stubbornly ".  :)

I sure do like the looks of that Mike Brooks, Fowler though. Or whatever your calling it today.

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Byron

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Offline StrawHat

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2013, 08:42:52 AM »
In one of the older "Gun Digest" annuals, there was an article written by a collector of smooth rifles.  He was able to give a good description and many photographs.  Most of the ODG who built rifles also built smooth rifles.  One reason was cost, it cost a lot more to make a rifled barrel and that cost was passed on to the customer.  Ease of loading and cleaning were also reasons to own a smooth rifle.
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Offline kennyd

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2013, 02:58:29 PM »
Well, I ain't gonna finish this one but here goes.  A rifle will have sights, shoot a patched ball, and be designed for aiming accurately.  A fowler will have smooth bore, and use shot, and be pointed.  A musket is a heavy full stocked weapon that can take a bayonet and be used as a club.  If it is smooth it is a musket, if rifled, it is a rifle musket (American Rifleman article).  If a smooth musket had rifling cut later, it is a rifled musket.


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Offline Ranger99

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2013, 03:09:14 PM »
mcwoodduck- you are thinking of explora or paradox.
i'm thinking westley richards was the first on those
but i may be mistaken. i'm thinking capstick wrote
about that.
18 MINUTES.  . . . . . .

Offline reliquary

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2013, 03:25:49 AM »
Since I have divested myself of all my charcoal-burners, I haven't stopped by to read this forum lately, but the title and comments on this thread caught my attention.  Being very simplistic in my approach to things, I went back to dictionaries for an etiology of the words involved.
 
Every dictionary I have, and have access to, including archaic ones, has basically the same definitions: 
Musket= smoothbore, muzzle-loading shoulder weapon, especially designed to be used by infantry soldiers. 
Rifle= a shoulder weapon having a rifled or spirally grooved bore imparting rotation to the projectile. 
Rifled musket=a formerly smoothbore musket which has been provided with rifling.  See especially the Civil-War era Enfield and such. 
Fowling piece=a smoothbore, muzzle-loading shoulder weapon designed to fire a load of shot, especially made to used to hunt "fowl".  Forerunner of modern shotguns.
Pistol= a small firearm designed having a stock to fit the hand and a short barrel. Before rifling, they were smoothbore.  After rifling became common...well, rifling was incorporated. 
 
Historically, firearms seem to have been defined first, by their use, and secondarily, by their design.   In modern times, ATF rules apply.  ATF rules apply differently to certain reproductions and dates of manufacture.
 
Add to the basic design...sights and rifled bores on shotguns, for instance....they're still shotguns.  Add longer barrels or  weird sights to, or chamber pistols for incomprehensible calibers...they're still pistols.  Modern pistols have a bore-size limitation by ATF.
 
Shorten rifle and shotgun barrels and/or stocks too much and you alter their ATF definitions, but not their former design.

Removing the rifling from a modern pistol makes it into a prohibited weapon. 
 
Removing sights from any weapon simply makes it into "that weapon" without  sights.  Adding sights to any weapon simply makes it "that weapon" with sights.
 
Seems pretty straightforward.  What makes a rifle a rifle:  rifling, length, and prupose for which designed.  Otherwise it's a smoothbore musket, or a fowling piece, or a pistol.
 
I realize that folks such as Winchester  and Remington, long ago, put long forearms and sling swivels and even bayonet furniture on rifles and called them "muskets" in order to sell them to governments, but that didn't alter their "rifle-ing" status. 

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2013, 02:37:27 PM »
Quote from: darkgael link=topic=271556.msg1099638555#msg1099638555
date=1357569197
I get as argumentative about boolits/bullets ...

Well alas and alack there Petey poo!   ;D  At least when it comes to that argument your stand would have merit!   8)  Matter of fact I'd join ya!  That boolit crap aggravates me...  >:(  It should stay on the forum that started it!   ;)
 
But I agree with Swampus. At least if he was eluding to what I believe he was.  I believe, as if anyone cares what I believe   ::) , that the term originated with the folk who built these weapons and the folk who were their customers.   :-\
 
Say a fellow goes to see Jacob Dickert in Lancaster, PA..  In discussing the customer's wants for his new firearm, the customer specifies that the bore be smooth.
 
Now, in every other respect the weapon is just like any other firearm this gunmaker has, or will ever, produce!  The length of pull may be different, the carving may vary a bit, the inlays may be different, the calibers may change, or the barrel may be smooth!  Hi-ebber, and day always be a hi-ebber,  ;D to the maker or the customer the firearm is still a rifle made by Jacob Dickert!  Noting that it is a smooth bore is just describing one aspect of the "rifle."  Now or back then!
 
It is not the same as the bastardization of a word like "bullet" (boolits) or "however" (hi-ebber) done for no legitimate reason!
 
Of course I have no cites for this.   :-\  But even if it ain't right, it oughta be and is good enough for me!   ;D
For hunting in the swamp I can see going to a gun smith and pointing to one of the short barreled German style hunting rifles and asking hem to make me a 50 or 54 caliber gun exactly like the rifle except I want it as a smooth bore so I can load shot in it and shoot quail, dove, woodcocks and swamp ducks with shot and use a large round ball for deer at shorter ranges.
 
Years ago Marlin made a bolt action smooth bore in 22Mag and called it a garden gun.  I shot one and we put shot shells through it and regular rounds.  At close ranges it worked at 50 yards it did not.  On their literature they did not call it a rifle. 

Offline theratdog

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2013, 10:30:05 PM »
well then what is a true squirrel rifle  ???

Offline Lonegun1894

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Re: So.....what makes a rifle a rifle?
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2013, 04:32:09 AM »
Any rifle that is accurate enough to allow you to still have meat left if you do your job of making a good hit in the right place?