Author Topic: Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling  (Read 940 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dee

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23870
  • Gender: Male
Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling
« on: December 30, 2012, 03:09:36 PM »
This topic came up and BruceP would like to get info on the matter of barrel fouling with this unnecessary procedure.
Having started reloading for different calibers in 1971, primarily for my 1958 Winchester Model 94 3030, I experimented with different types of bullets and loading methods. As my experience, and exposure grew, to the pastime, I began casting bullets, and experimenting with gas checks, and different bullet lubes, including recipes of my own. I found that some lubes fouled worse than others, and discovered a recipe of a friends that fouled very little. I adopted this one, and modified it some on my own. BUT! That is not what this thread is really about.
As my career changed and evolved I grew more involved in other calibers, and accuracy, and quite by accident discovered the above thread title to be true, which is BruceP's wish for information. While sizing 2506 from 3006 brass, I found the problem of neck stretching as the expander was pulled from the case mouth, so I used a case neck brush, with RCBS lube on the cases to prevent, or retard the stretch. When the brass was finished, it was cleaned INSIDE, and out before it was loaded.
In a hurry for a night hunt with friends once, I neck sized some 40 rounds of brass, and used the case neck brush to clean the case mouth for this procedure, with out cleaning the brass, and loaded the ammo not thinking about it. That night on a wheat field while shooting called in coyotes using a million plus powered spotlights, I and my hunting partners noticed a vapor trail running more than 20' out the muzzle of my 2506. What was it? Smoke from burning residual case lube. While they thought it looked pretty cool, I knew that it was not only fouling the barrel as it burned in the powder's hot gases, it most likely was increasing chamber pressures, as the bullet was riding on a thin layer of case lube between it and the bore. Next day inspection showed a much dirtier than usual bore, and no doubt accuracy suffered as BURNED CASE LUBE built up in the bore. One friend liked the odd vapor trail so well he wanted to know how I did it. I told him what it was, and that it was not a good idea. He didn't listen, and load his next batch of 220 Swift installing the case lube brush. He got his vapor trails, along with a fouled barrel, and accuracy suffered badly.

I have never heard of any REAL reason to use case lube on a jacketed bullet to get it to seat properly. I have seen dirty, or mishandled cases, that were hard to seat, but it was almost always due to inferior prepping, or inferior cases.
Now with that said, let me state that, I am not trying to prove a point, I am stating what I know from over 40 years of loading experience. Your experience may be different, and you may disagree. That's ok with me, cause I don't really care. I have pretty much always loaded by the book, and with the exception of cast bullets have experimented only with bullet weights, configurations, and powder charges, searching for accuracy, which has nothing to do with this requested topic.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline BruceP

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
Re: Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2012, 04:33:03 PM »
Thanks Dee. I now understand WHAT you were saying in the other thread. When you said that it caused excessive fouling my mind went to jacket fouling just like lead fouling with improperly lubed or fit cast bullets. I see that was not what you were saying and I was looking at your statement the wrong way. I see now what you meant. It is still something that I had never heard of before though.

Thanks
Bruce
Lord, Please help me
Keep my small mind open
and my big mouth shut.

Offline Larry L

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 780
Re: Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2012, 05:40:39 PM »
Anytime you burn a hydrocarbon like the RCBS lube, it's going to leave an ash of some kind. The biggest issue is the next bullet down the barrel is going to grind that ash into the barrel steel. Although you made the statement about rising pressure, I doubt it went up. It probably dropped. Even though there is some ash on the barrel lands and grooves, the coating of lube would have provided a fresh coat of lubricant for the bullet to ride on. Still, not a good idea.
Just as a FWIW. The copper jacket is a sacrificial lube for the lead core and prevents leading at the higher velocities. Folks are using lubes every day on bullets. Moly coated bullets were the fad a few years back. Frankly, it was nothing more than bullets tumbled in graphite. There are other bullet lubes on the market mostly of the borate types. You tumble the bullets in the white powder just like for the moly and it imparts a dry lube film. Both moly and borates will lower pressure and increase velocities for the same given load. The idea originally was to keep fouling to a minimum so the bench boys could shoot longer and not have to clean so often. Too bad it didn't work with some barrels completely ruined with hardened moly that could only be removed by lapping the barrel which reduced barrel life and accuracy.

Offline Land_Owner

  • Global Moderator
  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (31)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4536
    • Permission Granted - Land Owner
Re: Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2012, 12:35:54 AM »
Quote from: Dee; paraphrased and excertps
While sizing 2506 from 3006 brass, I found the problem of neck stretching as the expander was pulled from the case mouth, so I used a case neck brush, with RCBS lube on the cases to prevent, or retard the stretch... I neck sized some 40 rounds of brass, and used the case neck brush to clean the case mouth for this procedure, with out cleaning the brass, and loaded the ammo not thinking about it. That night on a wheat field while shooting called in coyotes using a million plus powered spotlights, I and my hunting partners noticed a vapor trail running more than 20' out the muzzle of my 2506. What was it? Smoke from burning residual case lube.

Sufficient case lube to create a vapor trail is too much lube.  Not surprising if you slop it in there like paint on a white washed fence.  Too much case lube creates the possibility of powder fouling at the point of contact with the the bullet and case wall, rendering the round partially inert, or certainly with different characteristics than expected.

Used SPARINGLY, case lube aids in the ease of insertion during bullet seating.  Mica is an alternative.  Ease of insertion at bullet seating contributes to consistent case neck tension on the bullet.   

I don't know about all that "ash burning" nonsense you attribute to the case lube.  More likely, it was insufficiently burned powder residue from fouling. 

RCBS Case Lube is water based.  From the MSDS www.rcbs.com/downloads/MSDS/RCBSCaseLube2.pdf
Quote
SECTION VI - REACTIVITY DATA:  HAZARDOUS DECOMPOSITION PRODUCTS: CO, CO2 and oxides of nitrogen.


Offline Larry L

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 780
Re: Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2012, 06:36:32 AM »
Coupla things Lloyd, An MSDS is not a complete formulation of any product. It's only purpose is to show any hazardous materials that might be in the formulation. The MSDS you posted is an old- 2005 to be exact. This formulation was changed in 2006 and it contains the hazardous materials, per MSDS, of Hexane. That's about as hydrocarbon as you can get. The formulation also contains polymers. Polymers are in the plastics family and are made in part from crude oil. Crude oil = hydrocarbons. Hydrocarbons burn quite nicely as you have already experienced when you start your car/truck. Hexane is a major component of the gasoline in your tank. So the burning and the ash are hardly nonsense. Personally, I can't see why anyone with a high school chemistry class under their belt would even consider using something like the RCBS lube when there are so many organic metals available as a dry lube to accomplish the goal without all of the crapola that goes with the RCBS lube or anything remotely like it. The issue is and always will be, the plating up of any lube on the barrel surface and is the plating removable. So far, any lube that is in the presence of oxidizers, heat or flame, pressure, will hard plate the steel surface. Sometimes so hard the only way to remove it is by grinding it off. Maybe in terms you might understand better would be over basing a motor oil. Once the cylinders have glazed, the only way to remove it is by honing or boring. Otherwise, blowby and excessive oil consumption will be an issue. So should anyone consider using a lube on the bullets, you better know the characteristics of the lube or expect to deal with the ramifications later, which might prove to be costly.

Offline geezerbiker

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1884
  • Gender: Male
Re: Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2012, 10:06:06 PM »
I would think the Lee wax based case lube would be the better way to go.  Anyway I've been known to use a little lube and I've never had a problem.  I even tried tumble lubing jacketed bullets in Alox.  It didn't seem to help but it didn't hurt either...

Tony

Offline Lloyd Smale

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (32)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18262
Re: Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2013, 12:20:59 AM »
I defineatly could be wront with this statement but i doubt your vapor trail was caused by the minute amount a lube used to lube a neck. Id guess more likely it was just atmosperic conditions that day. Ive seen trails from even pistol bullets under the right conditions. that said i dont leave lube on the necks of a case or lube a jacketed bullet. Never saw a need for it and id think your just adding another variable into the accuracy equation as i doubt youd ever get two rounds loaded with the exact same ammount of lube on them. I also doubt if you have a gun thats fouling with jacketed bullets lubing them is going to cure anything. Believe me if it actually helped accuracy every bench rest shooting in the world would be lubing them.
blue lives matter

Offline Dee

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23870
  • Gender: Male
Re: Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2013, 03:38:00 AM »
No Lloyd, the vapor trail was definitely the lube, it was obvious, and no one else's rifle was doin it. My huntin buddy went home and duplicated my hurried loading only on purpose and got the same results. His 220 Swift, was quite a bit more sensitive in the accuracy dept. than my 2506 due to bore size, and it was even more noticeable accuracy wise. It was just one of those times when someone who knows better, was in a hurry.
Most people don't realize it, but the gases from a round will push a bullet BEYOND the barrel crown, sometimes 8 feet or so. Learned that in Counter Sniper training. It was demonstrated using glass, so the vapor was interesting but, not helpful.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Savage

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4397
Re: Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2013, 03:59:10 AM »
In 45+ years of reloading, I've never heard of anyone lubing a copper jacketed bullet with sizing lube until now. I'm thinking there's a reason for that.
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline Dee

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23870
  • Gender: Male
Re: Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2013, 07:10:41 AM »
Savage on the occasions I am reloading cast bullets I am careful to make sure there is no lube on the base of the bullet, whether it be flat base or gas check. Burning a lube product in a powder charge WILL change things in the bore. I'm thinkin there is a reason you never heard of it also.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Land_Owner

  • Global Moderator
  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (31)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4536
    • Permission Granted - Land Owner
Re: Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2013, 08:02:17 AM »
All right.  All right.  UNCLE.  I got this one WRONG.  Dead wrong.  And I quoted an out of date MSDS.  I missed it.

I'll drop it from my reloading regime and go back to the bench, after a thorough barrel cleaning, and see if there is any greater accuracy to wring out of the rifle(s).

Thank you for all of your Food for Thought remarks on this topic.  I am converted.

Offline stimpylu32

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (67)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6062
  • Gender: Male
Re: Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2013, 08:30:25 AM »
LO
 
If it works for you , by all means keep doing it , I see no real advantage or disadvantage to your practice . Granted you may very well have need to clean your bore a bit more , however if shooting a Handi rifle that may not be a bad thing either , a bolt gun could be another issue .
 
I have to admit that this is a subject that never really crossed my mind till now , I've always relied on good neck tention to control bullet seating as well as bullet release .
 
stimpy
Deceased June 17, 2015


:D If i can,t stop it with 6 it can,t be stopped

Offline Dee

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23870
  • Gender: Male
Re: Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2013, 08:38:42 AM »
LOL! Like I said from the start, I started this thread by request of another poster, and don't really care if someone wants to pour a quart of Pennzoil in their cases. Everyone does it different, and I say do what works.
I do what I do, because of what I have learned over the past 40+ years. I have been blessed because of a 20 year career of almost unlimited FREE ammo and weaponry due to being an instructor. It was kinda like a learning experience on steroids, because I got to do a lot of stuff, and try a lot of stuff others wish for. I tried things that worked, and didn't work, and watched others do the same, and best of all I did it for a living.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline bosephus

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 106
Re: Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2013, 08:19:27 PM »

   there is a very simple way to cure the neck stretch when the expander ball comes out of the case .
and its cheap .

 powdered graphite .   a small can will last for years and years and years so long as you dont spill it .

 and its so simple to use  ...  just dip the neck of every third or fourth case  in it  and viola all your problems will disapear

Offline Lloyd Smale

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (32)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18262
Re: Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2013, 01:57:34 AM »
dont doubt you dee. Youve been around the block a few times. Just never saw it myself. Ive watched cast bullet fly through the air and seen vapor trails off of centerfire guns on days with high humidity but i guess ive never lubed a jacketed bullet so sure am no expert on this.
No Lloyd, the vapor trail was definitely the lube, it was obvious, and no one else's rifle was doin it. My huntin buddy went home and duplicated my hurried loading only on purpose and got the same results. His 220 Swift, was quite a bit more sensitive in the accuracy dept. than my 2506 due to bore size, and it was even more noticeable accuracy wise. It was just one of those times when someone who knows better, was in a hurry.
Most people don't realize it, but the gases from a round will push a bullet BEYOND the barrel crown, sometimes 8 feet or so. Learned that in Counter Sniper training. It was demonstrated using glass, so the vapor was interesting but, not helpful.
blue lives matter

Offline Dee

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23870
  • Gender: Male
Re: Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2013, 03:15:41 AM »
Lube the BOTTOM of the cast bullet, or the case, and you will see it, but it will be very obvious AT NIGHT, under high power SPOT LIGHTS. The difference is between CASE LUBE, and BULLET LUBE.
I doubt had I been shooting in broad daylight I would have noticed either. It's kinda like a green laser during the day, and then at night. If there is humidity in the air like down here in my part of Texas, you will see the green laser path AT NIGHT.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline cybin

  • Trade Count: (25)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 399
Re: Lubing Jacketed Rifle Bullets, and Fouling
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2013, 10:14:30 AM »
Very informational fellas.
 I use Lyman case lube on .30-30, and 7mm Rem. Mag, and Lee alox (white creamy lube in a tube) on .223, and 7.62x39.  When I try to use the Lee stuff I end up with a stuck case, ripping the rim off of it(only with .30-30 and 7mm). When I use the Lyman lube (more petro base-like a grease) I don't have any problems when I full length resize. But--I have never cleaned out the necks afterwards. Now I don't shoot the .30-30 much--been using the same 40 or 50 pieces of brass since 1972 when I started reloading--but can't see any problems--either with cleaning the bore or with accuracy---maybe I'm still not using much lube, or not shooting enough. It won't hurt to remove the lube from the case neck--and I never heard of lubing jacketed bullets--very thought provoking.
Thanks
cybin