Hornady XTP performance?

[S8Raz]

My bro'in law and I have been using 0.452 dia 300gr Hornady XTPs (non mag) with crusher-rib sabots in our 50cal inlines over roughly the same powder charge. (100gr 777 loose for him, two 50gr pellets for me) both are lit w/209s.  They should be kicking out at reasonable velocity and both were sighted for 2-3" 100yd groups. 
 
He poked a 6pointer on Saturday and couldn't find it until Sunday.  I missed a small doe at 75yds. (don't chuckle too hard).
 
Anyway, the shot on his buck was through & through the lung area.  Same diameter both ends like a fmj. (the reason for the 2 day search) 
 
Reading the reviews on these, they are supposed to mushroom at reasonably slow velocities.  They're meant for pistols (read: low velocity).  A decent bullet would have left him a good blood trail.  Zip with this one.
 
Does anyone have similar results, or better?  We're beginning to question our choice of projectiles.

[Semisane]

How far did the deer travel after the hit S8Raz? What kind of internal damage did you find?

[mannyrock]

 
      Triple 777 is a hotburning powder, and I have heard that with the loose powder at least, you should drop your normal load by 10%.
 
     From what I have read, I think that you are pushing the bullets too fast, especially for deer at fairly close distances.  Drop your powder charge to 80 grains, and you may find the bullet performs much better.
 
   I am not sure why, but for some reason, about 10 years ago, people got the idea in their heads that 100 grains of powder is about the minimum for shooting deer.  Way way wrong.   We use to shoot the T/C Maxiballs with just 80 grains, and they were devastating.
 
   Best, Mannyrock

[Cheesehead]

I use the Non magnum XTP at 250 grains and .452 inches. I seen the terminal performance on three deer this year and it was devastating. I see no need for a 300 grain bullet for deer. The 250 grain bullet shoots flatter with less recoil and more on game damage.

Cheese

[S8Raz]

Deer went 150yds+  Driving snow didn't help.
 
Internal damage was minimal to the lungs.  As mentioned, thru & thru.
 
We've been using the 300gr XTPs as the weight was close to the 295gr powebelts I gave up on due to detonation on impact.  I hit a doe with one 3yrs ago.  Saw her go down.  Decent entry wound.  No exit and tons of bits inside.
 
I've got a small batch of 240gr XTPs.  Might try those.  Now that its off-season, there's plenty of time to experiment.
 
Thanks for the info.

[OldSchoolRanger]

S8Raz,
Cheese is correct, 300 grain heads are too much for deer.

I use to use 240 grain Hornady XTP's, and had good results with them.  Since they had the same POI, and used the same sabots.  I use to use TC Cheap Shots (240grain all lead Hollow Points) for practice, and the XTP's during hunting season.  One year I decided to try the Cheap Shots on deer, the results were great.  As a matter of fact this year, my son dropped two deer with Cheap Shots, and they were both DRT.  I use them over 100 grains of T7 (2 pellets).

[LanceR]

S8Raz, some muzzleloading rifles such as the Savage 10 ML were specifically designed to use the 300 grain XTP and I for one prefer it to the 250 grain ones.  When compared to the 250 grain XTP most folks find that the 300 grain bullet gives the regular exit wounds that many hunters want.  My experience with 3 different rifles and both 250 and 300 grain non-mag XTPs in broadside shots has been that the 250s tend to break up and not exit while the 300s almost always do exit.  Both however are stone cold killers.

Personally, I want the exit would and don't want the potential eat damage of the fragmenting 250s.  I have averaged 3-4 deer a year with the 300s for some time and usually have a dead deer within 60 or so yards.  I did have one case where a medium sized buck went about 220 yards after being shot though both lungs.  He  was standing eating when I popped him and wasn't wound up before the shot but sure took off like a bat out of hell when hit.  Both lungs were pretty pulped but it took a while for him to realize he was dead. 

A 300 grain XTP shot side-to-side through the lungs may not pass through enough muscle to fully expand but at the same time, I suspect that if it hadn't been in windy snowy conditions this thread wouldn't ever have been started.  Tracking a lung shot deer for 150 yards is not anything too unusual as the will to live is pretty strong in deer.  If the 300s have been performing well for you I suggest staying with them unless you can see a trend of results you don't like.  No one can really make an informed decision with one shot as there are far to many variables of conditions, animal, placement etc.

Based on Hodgdon 777 load data (24") barrel) your buddy's bullet was likely running in the area of 1750 FPs at the muzzle which puts it in the designed velocity range for the 300 grain XTP.  I don't believe that it was traveling too fast.  Your two pellet load would likely be running about 100 FPS slower.

When loaded with the same amount of 777 the 250 grain XTP does not have any useful trajectory advantage over the 300 grain bullet.  Hodgdon data shows that with 100 grains 777 FFg loose powder the 250 grain bullet is going 1835 FPS and the 300 grain bullet at 1746 FPS.  Plug those into a ballistic calculator and the 250 has a 0.1" advantage at 150 yards and a 0.2" advantage at 200 yards.  Sure as heck, nothing is going to live on the difference. 

The 300 has a roughly 170-200 pounds energy advantage at 150-200 yards, too.

The 300 grain bullet does have a 15% or so windage advantage at those ranges and given that the 150 yard 10 MPH windage is 7.1" for the 250 and 6.0" for the 300 (9.7" and 8.2" at 200 yards) I also suspect that most of us would be better off thinking about windage and our wind calls than trajectory in the conditions you had.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Lance

[S8Raz]

An "aha moment".....
Come to find out, my bro'in law was using the MAG XTPs, not the non-mag.  Very likely the cause of lack of expansion on target.
Mine are non-mag, but have no experience on game yet.
I agree, there's nothing like a one-shot gremlin to make you doubt your whole setup....
We've got some Hdy 300gr flex-points from some old "speed sabots" (pre easy load, read: bear to load) and some 240gr non-mag XTPs that we'll try w/crush-rib sabots for a comparison session w/the 300gr XTPs once the ice melts.  Along with all the other year end "testing" for our centerfire setups..
 
Thanks all for the input.

[yooper77]

My bro'in law and I have been using 0.452 dia 300gr Hornady XTPs (non mag) with crusher-rib sabots in our 50cal inlines over roughly the same powder charge. (100gr 777 loose for him, two 50gr pellets for me) both are lit w/209s.  They should be kicking out at reasonable velocity and both were sighted for 2-3" 100yd groups. 
 
He poked a 6pointer on Saturday and couldn't find it until Sunday.  I missed a small doe at 75yds. (don't chuckle too hard).
 
Anyway, the shot on his buck was through & through the lung area.  Same diameter both ends like a fmj. (the reason for the 2 day search) 
 
Reading the reviews on these, they are supposed to mushroom at reasonably slow velocities.  They're meant for pistols (read: low velocity).  A decent bullet would have left him a good blood trail.  Zip with this one.
 
Does anyone have similar results, or better?  We're beginning to question our choice of projectiles.

How far was the 6-pointer shot? If shot at long distance the velocity could have been less then desired  If you have a cookie cutter hole from the Hornady 300 grain XTP that's not a bad in my eyes, since hard cast lead bullets are made to cookie cutter the same caliber hole through and through. Additionally, one shot at a deer doesn't really answer how these bullets perform, since shot placement can differ from shot too shot.


http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/catalog/2009/19-22_bullets_handgun.pdf


yooper77

[flintlock]

Using the XTP Mag was the problem, they are made for higher velocities and don't expand well when pushed slower...
 
Frankly the .420 XTP 240gr and the .451 XTP 300gr are classics in the inline world, if you can't kill deer with these 2 bullets it ain't the bullet...
 
Now I like (maybe I should say my Knight prefers) the .420 XTP 300gr, it stacks them on top of each other...I use a Harvester plain green sabot and 80grs FFF Goex...It's taken at least 20 deer by me, no problems...
 
The 300gr .429 caliber has a better ballistic coefficient than the 300gr .451 caliber...I sight in 2 1/2 inches high at 100 yards and I'm about 3 inches low at 150...Also, with the heavier bullet those 50 yard shots in the woods usually result in a good pass through and blood trail...
 
As you probably know the cheapest way to get these Hornadys is to buy them in bulk and match the .451s with a black sabot and the .429s with the corresponding green sabot...

[muddflapp76]

I use the 240 grain xtp out of my savage smokeless and I have yet to have a deer run more than 25 yards. None were spine shots either. All were just terrible mangled messes of deer heart and lungs. Recovered one from a deer shot facing me found inside skin on back hip weighed 143 grains which is still more than some deer hunters lead weighs. Drop down to a lighter weight non magnum xtp and you will enjoy lots of success.

[Cuts Crooked]

.......and it might be something as simple this: http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,193762.msg1098980554.html#msg1098980554
(Read all the way to the end for the answer to a similar mystery, different bullet but still a possible answer)

[omegahunter]

You already have it diagnosed correctly: it was the MAG at the end.  Same thing happens with 240 XTP MAG bullets at 80 grains of 777.  They just don't have the velocity behind them to reliably open up.

[LanceR]

Not to rain on anybody's parade but I seriously doubt that a magnum versus non-magnum bullet is really an issue.  The XTP is the most popular big bore pistol bullet and probably the single most popular muzzle loading sabot bullet in the world for good reason.  They work as advertised and do so over a wide velocity range and are offered at a very attractive price.

Both the 240 grain and 300 grain .452 magnum XTPs will function over a range from 1100 to 2100 FPS.  The 250 grain .452 XTP has a range of 800-1600 FPS and the 300 grain .452 XTP from 800-1700 FPS.

Given the likely muzzle velocity of 1750 FPS or lower for the shot in the original post either bullet will function very well most of the time.  While we each can discuss our particular experiences and preferences there is little to no reason to make blanket statements about the performance of any particular bullet mentioned here. 

The bottom line is that no two shots are alike and the deer was dead in 150 yards.  That's not a failure by any reasonable definition.

One place where there seems to be consensus is that when good shooters shooting accurate guns start comparing experience the feeling is pretty strong that the non-magnum 300 grain bullet is a better accuracy bullet than the magnum one but both shoot roughly 1 MOA out of my Savage so I can't offer much opinion in that discussion as they both result in quickly dead deer.

I suspect that out at around 150 yards or more the lower velocity envelope of the non-magnum XTPs will give a fairly significant advantage over the magnum ones but keep in mind that an unexpanded .452 bullet is still going to make a hole as big as a fully expanded premium .243 bullet.  In short, it is still a stone cold killer.

Lance

[omegahunter]

Change over to either non-magnum .452 and you will have the results you are looking for.  Go with the 300 grainer to get two drain holes almost every time, although the 250's will do it most of the time too.

[anweis]

I use the Non magnum XTP at 250 grains and .452 inches. I seen the terminal performance on three deer this year and it was devastating. I see no need for a 300 grain bullet for deer. The 250 grain bullet shoots flatter with less recoil and more on game damage.

Cheese

Same here, i agree. I use 80 grains of Blackhorn 209, 250 grain XTP non-mag bullet. I've killed one deer at 90 yards and seen another one killed at 60. Both cases the bullet did real damage. 

[Two Bears]

Not to rain on anybody's parade but I seriously doubt that a magnum versus non-magnum bullet is really an issue.  The XTP is the most popular big bore pistol bullet and probably the single most popular muzzle loading sabot bullet in the world for good reason.  They work as advertised and do so over a wide velocity range and are offered at a very attractive price.

Both the 240 grain and 300 grain .452 magnum XTPs will function over a range from 1100 to 2100 FPS.  The 250 grain .452 XTP has a range of 800-1600 FPS and the 300 grain .452 XTP from 800-1700 FPS.

Given the likely muzzle velocity of 1750 FPS or lower for the shot in the original post either bullet will function very well most of the time.  While we each can discuss our particular experiences and preferences there is little to no reason to make blanket statements about the performance of any particular bullet mentioned here. 

The bottom line is that no two shots are alike and the deer was dead in 150 yards.  That's not a failure by any reasonable definition.

One place where there seems to be consensus is that when good shooters shooting accurate guns start comparing experience the feeling is pretty strong that the non-magnum 300 grain bullet is a better accuracy bullet than the magnum one but both shoot roughly 1 MOA out of my Savage so I can't offer much opinion in that discussion as they both result in quickly dead deer.

I suspect that out at around 150 yards or more the lower velocity envelope of the non-magnum XTPs will give a fairly significant advantage over the magnum ones but keep in mind that an unexpanded .452 bullet is still going to make a hole as big as a fully expanded premium .243 bullet.  In short, it is still a stone cold killer.

Lance

Well there is a difference and the Magnums do require higher velocities than the non mags. That being said I use both in my encores and use ONLY GOEX FFFG black powder and both bullets do perform great. I have had the hearts blown up completely, lungs perforated like swiss cheese and just about everything in between and never had the XTP bullet fail.

The XTP is a hard working bullet that is very accurate in several rifles that I have run them through and hits very hard, tough to beat.

[AtlLaw]

The XTP is a hard working bullet that is very accurate in several rifles that I have run them through and hits very hard, tough to beat.

+1

[Chipshot]

I agree that the XTP is a great bullet. I took 2 deer w/300 gr XTP's over 90 grains of ffg T-7 loose powder this past season. neither ran more than 30 yards after being hit and both had good blood trails from the shots. I hunt in a thick swampy area and had no problems finding the deer.  I will be using them again this coming year.

[bubbinator]

I am a 4+ decade hunter/reloader/shooter but REAL new to Muzzle Loaders-like 10 shots! I bought a BP rifle during AL deer season because I was blessed with a box of M/L stuff from a neighbor whose brother had passed. It had all I needed but a rifle! I read the T/C Manual in the box (Black Diamond) and ended up with a T/C Impact Combo(rifle + 3x9x40 T/C scope). Shot a few rounds to zero bore-sighted scope(NOT). Not thrilled with any shots for group but I settled on the .45 240gr Hornady XPT in a red sabot that I inherited because  .44 XTPs (180s/240s) gave me excellent results in .44 pistols and Ruger 44 Carbine over H110. Got 2 hits within 4" of POI with 2 50gr Triple 7 pellets. made another sight correction and loaded the rifle. Several days later just before dark a damned nice 8 pt. was feeding in my food plot behind the house. When he finally gave me a broadside shot I fired but lost sight of him in the smoke. Found bright lung tissue and a few blood spatters at POI them nothing, then dark. Next morning my wife and I found him across a fence piled up in a brush pile. Shot was a high lung shot entry was plainly visible, exit was 50 cent sized, deer went under 50 yds in thick brush from POI. I'd call that good day's work for the XTP!

[PrewarM70]

S8Raz,
 
My brother and I both shoot the standard 300 grain .452" XTP at a measured muzzle velocity of 1,700 to 1,750 fps.  Our field experience has been 100% positive.  Mostly broadside heart / lung shots, all inside of 100 yards.  Only one deer has gone more than 50 yards from where they were hit, and all died within seconds of being hit. 
 
Two points to make, though. 
 
At really close range, this load does tremendous damage due to impact velocity being near the upper end of the regular XTP's designed range.  Nothing wrong with that, just make sure you don't hit the shoulder if you want to keep as much meat as possible.
 
The one "challenging" shot made with this load was a high angle quartering away shot on a large buck located up a steep slope.  Bullet entered at the last rib, passed through the chest cavity and up through the neck.  Bullet split the skin on the offside of the neck about 3/4 of the way up, and fell out onto the barn floor as he was being hung.  Perfect mushroom, 285 grains retained weight.  That is the only 300 grain XTP we have ever recovered.
 
Good luck, be safe, and have fun out there.
 
--Ian
 

[speedrackin99]

S8raz i know ur pain ............ i used too use 300 xtp over 100grains of pyroy . i got tired of having to go look for deer ..... not that i didnt ever drop one in his tracks occasionally  usely high in the back ..... same diameter hole in and out .... didnt matter if it was 20 yrds or 150 yrds ....... found the solution . PR bullets 220 dead center . solid lead polytip ...... i use black horn 209 . started with a 209 primer switched to a large mag rifle primer set up . they drop in there tracks ....... have not had a pass thru . the animal absorbs it all i have retained bullets from severl deer and they usually retain around 80 to 90% of there original weight ......... givem a try u wont be sorry...

[yellowtail3]

I've used the 240gr, .45cal XTPs packaged by TC last few seasons. They work fine.


A few years ago I tried out TC CheapShots, they worked fine.


early season, there's no advantage in carrying my CF rifle, other than 2nd shot...