Author Topic: E85 fuel sucks  (Read 629 times)

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Offline coyotejoe

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E85 fuel sucks
« on: January 02, 2013, 04:56:58 AM »
Here is an independant test comparing E85 to gasoline and it doesn't look at all good for E85.  The test involved driving a 2007 flex fuel Chevy Tahoe on a round trip from San Diego to Los Vegas and back, first on gasoline and again on E85. Fuel economy for the trip averaged 18.3 mpg on gasoline and only 13.5 for E85. The E85 cost less at the pump, $3.09 per galon vrs. $3.42 for gasoline, but because of the poor milage the total cost for the trip was $154.29 on E85 vrs $124.66 on gasoline. They also calculated emissions produced by both fuels and that did favor E85 but only by 0.5% or basicaly a draw. So does E85 take us a step closer to energy independence? That's very doubtful. Some studies have shown that ethanol is "energy negative", meaning it takes more energy to produce it than can be gotten out of it. It's certainly a boon to farmers who grow corn, but a pain to those who feed corn to livestock as the price of corn sky rockets. It also is very bad for the environment since farmers are tempted to grow corn year after year, burning out the soil so that they have to use more and more chemical fertilizer, which leaches out and runs off into streams and lakes causing unnatural algae growth and killing fish and wildlife and even polluting the water wells.
 This of course is all in addition to the fact that that it destroys engines of older vehicles like my '92 GMC. Surviving as I do on social security there is no way I could possibly ever purchase a new vehicle so if, or I should say "when" E85 becomes the law of the land I guess I'll just have to walk.
http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/e85-vs-gasoline-comparison-test.html?mktcat=advice-fuel-economy-article&kw=e85+vs+gasoline+comparison+test&mktid=ob61762696&msite=w
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Offline ironglow

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2013, 05:10:00 AM »
  That's what we get when the majority vote for Eco-Freak politicians.  The idiots think that by putting 10% ethanol in our gasoline they prevent 10% in production of hydrocarbons.  We get 20% less mileage. so the idiot lawmakers have moved us...backwards..
  BTW:   Ethanol doesn't do newer cars & equipment any good either..
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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2013, 05:35:22 AM »
Quote
E85 fuel sucks


especially in your outboard!
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Offline jcbdc

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2013, 05:47:04 AM »
E85 sucks in mowers, weed eaters, too.  We have a few stations who have a pump with 100% gas, or at least they say it is! 
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2013, 06:21:16 AM »
Quote
E85 fuel sucks


especially in your outboard!

+1
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Offline Larry L

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2013, 07:26:47 AM »
With current engine designs, E85 will yield lower fuel mileage......but that's about to change. With the introduction of some of the newer engines with the 2013 cars/trucks, you'll see that playing field leveled a lot. The issue with ethanol has always been it's lower BTU rating, less energy per gallon. But it has one characteristic which makes it more usable and that's it's octane rating, it's higher than most gasoline. This allows the engine makers to do several things. Raising combustion ratios allows us to extract more energy from a fuel. Take GM engines that are coming out, they will have at minimum 11:1 compression with most at 11.5:1. That's considerably higher than the usual 8:1 a lot of the current engine have. So we will be able to extract more energy output of the fuel with the newer designs. Another benefit of the higher octane rating is we can now run more advanced timing. This yields 2 things- better extraction of the energy and cooler combustion temps which lowers emissions. Add the direct injection which allows us to run the engine rich when needed or lean saving fuel. The GM engines are also variable displacement. The 6.2 V8 which can make over 600HP but in small displacement mode is a 3.1 V4. In this mode, GM claims a fuel mileage in excess of 26 MPGs in the Vette. If they reduce the power output to more reasonable HP, they could get these kind of figures from a Silverado. The down side, once we embark on this road, we won't be able to go back. Ethanol will become a must fuel as the typical 100% gasoline fuel will cause detonation and the engine won't last long. My personal opinion, I think this is a mistake using a food source for a fuel when there is already so much world hunger. All we need is a bad growing season and things will get dicey quick. WE have the technology to make clean headless engines that get HUGE fuel savings and make tremendous HP but you can't have it. Volkswagen is working on one now that should see the streets in Europe in the next 2 years. But because of politics, I doubt you see any here. Just like you don't see any of the BMW diesel sedans that get almost 90 mpg in Europe. It's all about the politics.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2013, 09:29:40 AM »
You can believe as you wish E85 is not cost effective yet.
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Offline dakotashooter2

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2013, 10:07:05 AM »
When E85 came out it was significantly cheaper than gasoline sometimes .80 to $1.00 which was one of the selling points.
I noticed a month ago that the difference was only about .20 in my area. I wondered how long that would last. I suspect if use/demand doesn't take a significant rise in the near future it's production will take a lower priority and the cost will climb above gasoline.
Just another worthless opinion!!

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2013, 10:30:24 AM »
I noticed that the price of feed corn for my cows went up when it was being used for fuel. I really wonder if anyone who decides these issues ever considers what effect their decisions have on other products ? I mean so you save a few bucks on fuel and get worst millage then pay more for milk and beef and in the long run have less money . What has been accomplished ?
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Offline hillbill

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2013, 12:56:01 PM »
I noticed that the price of feed corn for my cows went up when it was being used for fuel. I really wonder if anyone who decides these issues ever considers what effect their decisions have on other products ? I mean so you save a few bucks on fuel and get worst millage then pay more for milk and beef and in the long run have less money . What has been accomplished ?

egggggzactly! food for fuel is not and may never be a viable reality.

Offline BIG Dog454

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2013, 01:03:59 PM »
all true. But the reason for E-85 is not for better (less) polution its about Taxes; you need more gallons of E-85 to go the distance of plain Gas.  Therefore you pay more fuel tax.

BD

Offline hillbill

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2013, 02:05:04 PM »
ive never looked at it that way, but very true. wouldnt it be nice to imagine a place where the gov and everybody else wasnt in your pocket every minute of the dang day?

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2013, 10:12:36 PM »
With current engine designs, E85 will yield lower fuel mileage......but that's about to change. With the introduction of some of the newer engines with the 2013 cars/trucks, you'll see that playing field leveled a lot. The issue with ethanol has always been it's lower BTU rating, less energy per gallon. But it has one characteristic which makes it more usable and that's it's octane rating, it's higher than most gasoline. This allows the engine makers to do several things. Raising combustion ratios allows us to extract more energy from a fuel. Take GM engines that are coming out, they will have at minimum 11:1 compression with most at 11.5:1. That's considerably higher than the usual 8:1 a lot of the current engine have. So we will be able to extract more energy output of the fuel with the newer designs. Another benefit of the higher octane rating is we can now run more advanced timing. This yields 2 things- better extraction of the energy and cooler combustion temps which lowers emissions. Add the direct injection which allows us to run the engine rich when needed or lean saving fuel. The GM engines are also variable displacement. The 6.2 V8 which can make over 600HP but in small displacement mode is a 3.1 V4. In this mode, GM claims a fuel mileage in excess of 26 MPGs in the Vette. If they reduce the power output to more reasonable HP, they could get these kind of figures from a Silverado. The down side, once we embark on this road, we won't be able to go back. Ethanol will become a must fuel as the typical 100% gasoline fuel will cause detonation and the engine won't last long. My personal opinion, I think this is a mistake using a food source for a fuel when there is already so much world hunger. All we eed is a bad growing season and things will get dicey quick. WE have the technology to make clean headless engines that get HUGE fuel savings and make tremendous HP but you can't have it. Volkswagen is working on one now that should see the streets in Europe in the next 2 years. But because of politics, I doubt you see any here. Just like you don't see any of the BMW diesel sedans that get almost 90 mpg in Europe. It's all about the politics.
Sorry but unless you change the laws of physics, E85 will never come near the mileage of gasoline-period.

A mumber of vehicles already have compression ratios of 11:1 with many in the 10:1 range and have for many years.

You are falling for the sales hype car companies are using to pass off vehicles that do not have the towing, load, or passenger capacity of vehicles that the car companies have stopped selling so they can sell the fwd crap-wagon econo-boxes whildy telling the ignorant public that blown four bangers will do everything V-8s can can do and won't cost any more dollars in up-keep.
Of course they ignore basic facts that for a smaller engine to do the work of a larger one it is far, far, far more heavily stressed, therefore; it will have operational problems years to decades earlier than a push-rod V-8.

Most V-8s lope around no more that a couple of thousand RPMs over idle. Less strain means long life. Four bangers and even sixes work far, far harder to try to achieve similar performance the V-8s achieve.
And for those who are enamored with blowers (turbos) if you have access to a mechanics base rate repair book, compare similar tasks on a blown verses unblown engine.
As my local private garage tells me, with many of the newer cars, not far out of warranty, they tell the owners go to the dealer, by the time we remove all the junk under the hood to do the simple repair, we will have to charge you almost as much as the dealer does.

E85 is a fools folly foisted on an ignorant public by the government officials who probably know less about how cars run than the average woman.



Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2013, 10:22:22 PM »
When E85 came out it was significantly cheaper than gasoline sometimes .80 to $1.00 which was one of the selling points.
I noticed a month ago that the difference was only about .20 in my area. I wondered how long that would last. I suspect if use/demand doesn't take a significant rise in the near future it's production will take a lower priority and the cost will climb above gasoline.
Government subsidies, state and federal, are the only thing that made producing alcohol for gasohol viable.

In Minn. the state subsidies ran out before the federal so distilleries started shutting down already several years ago, while at tjme same time they wanted to try to force people to use twenty percent gasohol but so far it has not .

As is, for the better gasoline mileage I often run the alcohol free gasoline that is sold at some Minn. stations for use in engines that even the government admits gasohol will destroy but unlike Dakota where you can buy alcohol free regular here it is premium only.
It is from twenty to thirty cents a gallon more but on twenty gallons I can get from seventy to one hundred more miles on a tank depending how much is highway and how much is city.

Offline guzzijohn

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2013, 02:57:45 AM »
E85 is a whole different creature from E10. I would like to see diesel route developed further instead. However many here and many on a motorcycle forum I frequent complain about E10. I guess everyone has there own experiences. I just have not had any problems with it in everything from my vehicles to my 1958 IH tractor,  to my 75 Moto Guzzi, to all my lawn and garden stuff. On my Honda Accords I cannot detect any significant mileage difference and I watch it close since I drive a lot of miles. Your mileage may vary.
GuzziJohn

Offline dakotashooter2

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2013, 10:36:52 AM »
This discussion makes me think of sprint cars. The seem to utilize the benefits Larry mention buy using alcohol as fuel. They do have lots of HP...... The problem is they don't get very good mileage and the engines dont seem to last long. LOL
Just another worthless opinion!!

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2013, 10:47:35 AM »
I must be missing something here as more octane could be added to gas to allow higher compression and better preformance . With computer controled engines it would seem emissions could be controled better than they were back in the 70's when compression was reduced ?
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Offline hillbill

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2013, 01:33:31 PM »
i have done a lot of research on different vehicles, types of motors, types of fuels and relative economy of such. it seems the epa computes emission levels in amouts per gallon of fuel used.but does not take into account how many miles that gallon propelled that vehicle.
 
so, if your suv got 18 mpg on e85 it is considered better than your diesel volks rabbit that got 55 mpg . even tho the volks actually put out theroretically less pollution per mile than the suv. could that be any more stupid??? this is why yu dont see any diesel cars here anymore.
 
in europe they have cars made to the same safety standards as ours but with engines that can get close to 60 mpg on diesel. could this be any more rediculous?
 
i know this post is about high alcohol fuel, that fuel is not feasible.its not condusive to motor longevity due to the lack of lubrication and how corrosive it is on fuel systems.
 
i wish the gov would wake up and measure pollution by the mile traveled. all my info is just gleaned by research and may not be correct. if you have other info id love to see it.im all about learning.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2013, 02:04:15 AM »
When road tax on fuel is paid by the gallon what incentive is there to do anything that will increase millage ?
 
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Offline Larry L

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Re: E85 fuel sucks
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2013, 02:21:12 PM »
Quote
This discussion makes me think of sprint cars. The seem to utilize the benefits Larry mention buy using alcohol as fuel. They do have lots of HP...... The problem is they don't get very good mileage and the engines dont seem to last long. LOL


I've worked for Jack and Rick with their engine programs so I can tell you first hand that when we formulated the oil for the engines, it's per individual track. We use as thin viscosity oil as possible(sometimes 0w-0) with additives that would virtually kill a street engine and make the engine last as long as the race plus 10%. The engine is a single cost item and will not be used again so it's expendable, as such. Besides, what's an engine when the winner walks off with millions.
Here's an item for you to look at if yer a NASCAR fan. Wanna guess whose trailer this is in?