Author Topic: Is this good enough? (Read 2031 times)

Nobody · « **on:** February 14, 2004, 12:21:17 PM »

Been shooting scoped rifles all my life and am comfortable only with .5 MOA (or less) accuracy. I've been shooting this 95GG for 2-3 years, not too much mind you, with open Williams Firesights. I'm shooting 300 gr Nosler Protected Points in front of 63gr H335 and I'm guessing I'm getting around 2000+-fps. Anyway, I'm getting all my shots in a 4" circle at 50 yards and can do pretty much the same at 100 yards. Is this good enough accuracy? Not having shot open sights too much, I have no idea of what sort of results I should realisitically be striving for.

Thanks

jh45gun · « **Reply #1 on:** February 14, 2004, 04:18:55 PM »

That could be a bit big but could be the reload maybe a other load would tighten things up. The 45/70 is a inhernetly accurate cartridge even for a cartridge that has such a rainbow trajectory but at 50 and 100 yards I would think you could do better? Also open sights with older eyes are not conductive to good accuracy you might get some better groups with a peep sight mounted if you do not want to go with a scope and still stay with iron sites. I would say you should be able to at least halve that group to 2 inches if not better using good sights and good ammo or the right reloads. A milder load may shoot better for accuracy and that one may be fine for hunting as long as it stays at 4 inches. As a 45/70 shooter I still think you can do better. I know I still am testing loads in my Roller and have not found one that I like yet either. They are decent groups but I know I can find a better one. Be prepared to shoot more different reloads to see what your gun likes best. Jim

Nobody · « **Reply #2 on:** February 14, 2004, 06:49:38 PM »

That's the thing, this is a hunting/defense load for deer/bear, respectively. When I bought this rifle it was because I wanted to keep things simple for a change.

TennesseeNuc · « **Reply #3 on:** February 14, 2004, 08:39:06 PM »

Nobody,
Try this. If you have an extra scope or can remove one from another rifle, mount it on your 45-70 and use it for your load work-up. Many 45-70 Marlin shooters report 1 1/2" groups @ 100 yds. Both my GG and my CB will shoot that well with my loads. My GG is still scoped but my CB now has a tang sight as it's regular sight. Removing the scope from the CB opened my groups up by about an inch. But I have the comfort of knowing that any shooting error is mine and not the rifle. :grin:
Hope this helps.
Later,
TnNuc

Red Neck64 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 15, 2004, 05:59:29 AM »

Quote from: Nobody

Been shooting scoped rifles all my life and am comfortable only with .5 MOA (or less) accuracy. I've been shooting this 95GG for 2-3 years, not too much mind you, with open Williams Firesights. I'm shooting 300 gr Nosler Protected Points in front of 63gr H335 and I'm guessing I'm getting around 2000+-fps. Anyway, I'm getting all my shots in a 4" circle at 50 yards and can do pretty much the same at 100 yards. Is this good enough accuracy? Not having shot open sights too much, I have no idea of what sort of results I should realisitically be striving for.

Thanks

"nobody"try cutting down on your powder load.I did that with my Marlin 1895 45/70,and started to shot 3 shot clover leaf at 100yds.But we do like to load them hot!

Nobody · « **Reply #5 on:** February 15, 2004, 06:06:07 AM »

I re-read my original post and realized I was not as specific as I thought I was. What I should have written was "Using OPEN sights, is this good accuracy?" The operative word being OPEN.

RedNeck is 63gr of H335 considered "hot?" I didn't really think of it as being a hot load. Of course with most 4570s shooting 1700-1800fps I guess 2000+ might be considered hot.

Thanks

big medicine · « **Reply #6 on:** February 15, 2004, 06:22:26 AM »

4 inch groups at 100 yards will most likely kill anything you are aiming at. I would think you could tighten them up some. I have a 1x4 Leupold on mine. I have always had a scope on it so I cant tell you what I could do with open sights on it, but last year in Ranch Dogs postal match I shot a .711 inch 5 shot group at 100 yards. My other Marlins that I have open sights on like my 38/55 will shoot right around an inch usually any where from 3/4 to 1 1/2.

I have never tried the H335 out of the 45-70. My load that I shoot is a 300 gr Hornady JHP with 47 grains of IMR 4198 and a fed 210M primer. I do shoot the H335 out of the 38/55 and it works well there.

Red Neck64 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 16, 2004, 01:43:47 AM »

Quote from: Nobody

I re-read my original post and realized I was not as specific as I thought I was. What I should have written was "Using OPEN sights, is this good accuracy?" The operative word being OPEN.

RedNeck is 63gr of H335 considered "hot?" I didn't really think of it as being a hot load. Of course with most 4570s shooting 1700-1800fps I guess 2000+ might be considered hot.

Thanks

"Nobody"That load is so hot it's smokeing..H335 is right behind IMR3031,the powder I use in burning rate.I use 56.9gr of 3031 for the 300gr bullet,ang get 1900fps from it.In the 444 Marlin 55.6gr of H335,and a 300gr bullet,comes out to 2100fps.If you like to load hot,like we all do,Go to that Hodgon powder called VARGET.62.0gr of it gets 2090fps with a 300gr bullet,VARGET is slower burning then H335.

Nobody · « **Reply #8 on:** February 16, 2004, 04:20:48 AM »

Oh crap. :-) I figured 2200+ was hot. I always figured I like "warm" but not "hot." I tell you I was at the range Saturday and looking through those open sites I could see quite a fireball out of the front end. Guess I know why now.

Red Neck64 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 16, 2004, 03:09:38 PM »

Quote from: Nobody

Oh crap. :-) I figured 2200+ was hot. I always figured I like "warm" but not "hot." I tell you I was at the range Saturday and looking through those open sites I could see quite a fireball out of the front end. Guess I know why now.

"Nobody"Please get a up to date reloading manual!Your lucky you have a face left.

Nobody · « **Reply #10 on:** February 17, 2004, 05:41:31 AM »

Got that load DIRECTLY from Nosler. I spoke to them on the phone. Also spoke with Hogdon to compare numbers. I told both Nosler and Hogdon what velocity I was hoping to achieve and they gave me the powder charge.

Believe me, I've read too many posts about blown guns or shooter's injuries to deliberately develop a hot load.

Red Neck64 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 17, 2004, 06:49:40 AM »

Quote from: Nobody

Got that load DIRECTLY from Nosler. I spoke to them on the phone. Also spoke with Hogdon to compare numbers. I told both Nosler and Hogdon what velocity I was hoping to achieve and they gave me the powder charge.

Believe me, I've read too many posts about blown guns or shooter's injuries to deliberately develop a hot load.

Yes but that looks like a Ruger#1, 45/70 load to me.Not a Marlin or Winchester load.And much to much for a,trap door or roleing block rifle.

Nobody · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2004, 08:42:27 AM »

Just to doublecheck I called Nosler again and asked specifically if this load was good for Marlin 1895 Guide Guns. The answer is/was "yes." He said that out of a 22" No. 1 test barrel this load will generate 2187fps. I figured I'd lose as much as 180fps due to the shorter barrel but he said "No you'll probably only loose 10-15fps/inch." Appreciate your concern though Redneck. It's a good idea to be safe.

Red Neck64 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 17, 2004, 10:24:36 AM »

Quote from: Nobody

Just to doublecheck I called Nosler again and asked specifically if this load was good for Marlin 1895 Guide Guns. The answer is/was "yes." He said that out of a 22" No. 1 test barrel this load will generate 2187fps. I figured I'd lose as much as 180fps due to the shorter barrel but he said "No you'll probably only loose 10-15fps/inch." Appreciate your concern though Redneck. It's a good idea to be safe.

"Nobody" A test barrel,is "NOT" a 1895 Marlin rifle.End.,

Nobody · « **Reply #14 on:** February 17, 2004, 05:14:51 PM »

You are certainly correct, a production gun is not a test barrel. Having said that, if you can't trust the manufacturer then who can you trust? The guy even said that they don't test their developmental loads to maximum and neither do I. I provided him with the facts, he gave me an answer. According to Nosler, the charge range goes from 63.0 - 67.0 H335. I'm obviously at the bottom end. And, as I recall, and don't quote me on this, Hogdon said the max load was 68.0 H335 so I'm going with an even more conservative load. I can appreciate your caution but as you probably know, you can create horrific pressure spikes thus blowing a gun by using too light of a load.

As I said earlier, I've seen some loads that make me shake my head and I can't believe the chances some reloaders are taking. I've examined the cases for pressure signs and have found none. I try never to be dogmatic but this is the load I'm shooting.

I will add that anyone who wants to try H335 should call Nosler, call Hogdon, call whoever else you want to call and get the data and then decide for yourself how you're going to develop your load. What works in my gun might not work in yours.

Respectfully submitted.

big medicine · « **Reply #15 on:** February 17, 2004, 05:23:06 PM »

Nobody,
One thing you will notice with H335 powder is the muzzle flash. I seems to have more of a muzzle flash than other powders I have used. It doesnt mean any thing, just makes a more dramatic boom. The load I shoot out of my 35 Whelen looks like a 105mm going off towards dusk. :shock: It is a good powder, and if you can get the groups you want with it....enjoy the light show.

Nobody · « **Reply #16 on:** February 17, 2004, 05:45:08 PM »

You're correct Big, it does make quite a flash. I mentioned that as well and the Nosler guy said try RL-7 to eliminate the flash.

Red Neck64 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 18, 2004, 05:24:00 AM »

Quote from: Nobody

You're correct Big, it does make quite a flash. I mentioned that as well and the Nosler guy said try RL-7 to eliminate the flash.

RL-7 powder load in 45/70,in a Marlin and this is max,is 52.3gr,with a 300gr bullet,for 2,000fps.

jh45gun · « **Reply #18 on:** February 18, 2004, 06:54:13 AM »

Nobody, WHen I was looking for a safe load and for what My gun would take ( it is a 1902 Remington Roller made for smokeless rebarreled with a green mountain octagon barrel. and the reciever used such cartridges as the 7mm, 762x54, 8mm lebel ect. ) I called the powder companies and asked them if it was safe to shoot Marlin type loads and most of them said yes since it was a smokeless proofed receiver. Others told me no. I finally asked Steve Garbe who shoots these guns and other old BPC guns in competition and he told me I could shoot the bottom third of the loading list comfortably with out worrying about it. I trusted his info more as he shoots these guns all the time. There is a lot of latitude of what the powder companies may tell you. I have even had the same company tell me 2 different things a month a part as they do not remember who they have and have not talked to. The safest way is to find it in print and work your way up I guess. I found that out with my encore I selected a load for my 308 pistol and loaded some up that was not max but still on the high side. Big mistake they also did not show any signs of any pressure but were so stout they were no fun to shoot and I pulled the bullets to salvage the powder and cases and started over. I can shoot factory all day with this gun and while this load was below min it really was too stout to shoot in my pistol comfortably. IT was a flinch in the making. Shooting mild cast loads got me out of the flinch situation but I learned my lesson on not building up from the bottom. Jim

Nobody · « **Reply #19 on:** February 18, 2004, 07:29:23 AM »

The fact that both Nosler's data and Hogdon's data substantially overlap lets me breathe easier when I'm looking down the barrel with my finger on the trigger. I have called both Hogdon and Nosler at different times and have gotten the same info. Called 'em at different times not to try to be sneaky, just because I temporarily misplaced what I'd written down. Later on when I come across it, it's consistent.

As far as trusting what is in print, even that can be incorrect. I forget what forum I was looking at but recently one of the component manufacturers had to make a big announcement about incorrect load data. Also, I had to call Hornady a month or so ago and let them know that the COL that they'd specified for a particular cartridge was incorrect - so there you are!

I appreciate what you're saying. Believe me, I don't want to become a statistic.

Now, can somebody tell me if the accuracy with open sights I first mentioned is good enough? :grin:

jaycocreek · « **Reply #20 on:** February 18, 2004, 08:22:45 AM »

Rick Jaimeson of Shooting Times took a Pressure Barrel and went to work on loads for the .450 Marlin including the .300 grain.He took a 300 Grain Nosler to 2333 fps and only 40,600 PSI out of the Guide Gun with RL-7.He also took the 300 grain Sierra to 2328 fps and 41,500 PSI with 43,500 PSI being the SAAMI max pressure.
Anything you can load in the .450 Marlin you can in a modern Marlin 45-70 with slightly less pressure do to case capacity.
According to Speer Suplemental Data for the .450 Marlin the 45-70 Winchester case holds 7 more grains of powder when filled to the brim than the .450 Marlin case does.

Basically max loads(40,000 CUP) for the 45-70 in the Guide Gun are 1900 fps(400 grain)2080 fps(350 grain) and 2300 fps (300 grain) give or take a few.

Just my opinion.Jayco.

Red Neck64 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 18, 2004, 10:45:29 AM »

nobody,your post was makeing me go nuts.I went right to the Hogdon site,you are right!At the site I found,335 load for the 45/70 was,63.5gr C for 2143fps,but the real shock was that load only generates 27,400cup.the test was done using a Trapdoor rifle.Do you use a drop tube,to load all that powder in the shell?This old dog was taught a new trick.

Nobody · « **Reply #22 on:** February 18, 2004, 11:12:25 AM »

Mr. Neck64,

I SURELY didn't mean to agitate anybody. I'm just trying to get an "edukashun" myself from the learned folks here myself. I don't use any kind of drop tube, just a funnel and I measure each load TWICE. Now I can tell you one thing, and at this point it almost sounds funny but if I'd have known that 63.5 grains of H335 was a compressed load, I MIGHT NOT have used 63.0grains!!!! :grin: It's true, I never use nor try to come close to compressed loads. Now I know we're talking a difference of only .5 grains between what I was told by Nosler and what shows up on Hogdon's site. I don't know if that .5 grains is what pushes it into a compressed load or not. As I recall though, when I look down each filled case to check for any sort of apparent irregularities, none of 'em at 63.0 grs even look close to being compressed. But even .5 grs can make a world of difference.

You say they used a trapdoor!? That IS surprising. Difficult, but not impossible to believe.

Nobody · « **Reply #23 on:** February 18, 2004, 11:24:00 AM »

Just checked Hogdon's site myself. Hogdon was using a 24" barrel whereas Nosler was using a 22" barrel. Also, Hogdon was using a dissimilar bullet. Same weight, different manufacturerer and configuration. These factors could make all the difference in the world. And I really hate to mention this but CUP is not the same as PSI so that is probably an important difference as well.

Gees!! All this talk about little (but important) details. :shock:

jaycocreek · « **Reply #24 on:** February 18, 2004, 11:26:30 AM »

http://www.speer-bullets.com/pdf/ReloadingSupplementalDATA/450MARLN.PDF

Nobody-You might want to check this one out.It is in PDF.It show' H-322 giving more velocity than RL-7.Shocked me and the Speer Unicore is one of the best 300 grain bullet's you can buy.Just remember,anything you can do in the .450 Marlin you can do in the 45-70 with slightly less pressure.

Good luck.Jayco.

Nobody · « **Reply #25 on:** February 18, 2004, 11:27:29 AM »

Jayco, you get my PM?

Nobody · « **Reply #26 on:** February 18, 2004, 11:32:39 AM »

"The 400 grain soft point, although designed for the 45-70, gives a heavier option and we were able to reach velocities of nearly 2000 feet/sec."

Wow. They had some interesting loads on that Speer page. Little too fast for my blood. I just got a new Limbsaver on my 95GG but still, I don't think I want to go that fast. Still, it's interesting reading. Might try those Unicores one day but man, even buying components is not inexpensive anymore. I'll have to exhaust my supply of Noslers first.

jaycocreek · « **Reply #27 on:** February 18, 2004, 11:56:09 AM »

Nobody-I got your P.M.Who are you,your somebody? :lol:

I look at Max charges and velocity's to see where I don't want to be past.A kinda warning sign if you will.Most of the time accuracy is a couple grain's less than Max.Not alway's but most of the time.I only jumped in when I saw your velocity being to Hot?Not so.I also use the Nosler as you know with RL-7 and 2300 fps on average with Winchester cases and it is very accurate.Is it over 40,000 CUP?I don't think so.I use Data from Pressure barrel's only and a Chronogragh and even compare expantion ring expantion.If you remember someone's load in question at 2288 fps off of Marlin Talk and Hodgdon's reply.I just love there answer.

It is within the limitations of your Rifle

That about sum's it up.
Best of luck.Jayco.