Advice please: Want (need!) to "peep" my old Winchester Model 94

[JamesD]

Hey all,


Here's the deal.
I'm 65, and got the creepin' presbyopia.


Cannot focus the semi buckhorn (I think the name of?) rear sight on my Model 94 worth a darn.
[...without specs, which I don't always have with me, and what if you needed your rifle and didn't have your specs!]


BUT I was handling my grandfather's .22 today
[which I am NOT recalling the make of, it doesn't matter to this post but it BUGs me, I'll edit tomorrow!]
which has a disc peep rear sight AND IT WORKED GREAT!


It was still blurry but it doesn't matter, it seems!
Apparently the blur is concentric and uniform,
gray-blur inner turning to black as it moves out,
and the front sight centers up in that image quite well.


I'm sure not as well as if the rear sight were dead crisp, but pretty darn good, and a darn site better than the semi-buckhorn.


SO... my question is...
How do I get me something peepish on my Model 94?


I guess the two possibilities are:
1- a Lyman or such receiver peep sight, or
2- a flip up tang peeper


[although hmmm... aren't both of these more ghost-y than true "disc peep"?]
[will they still "work" for my eyes as well as the disc peep?]


The rifle isn't with me right now, but I THINK it WASN'T drilled for a receiver sight.
Mine is from 1940-something, from the period where the records got burnt, so I don't know for sure.
If it's not already drilled I'd sort of hate to "alter" it, so that might make my mind up for me.


[...unless EVERYBODY here says, "No, no, no the tang sites are horrible, put the receiver sight on there", in which case I might think on it]


But for right now, can y'all tell me about putting a tang sight on my old 94?
Or for that matter go ahead and discuss receiver vs. tang, in case my 94 IS drilled for a receiver sight.


a) can you get old, original ones from way back, floating around out there if you look? or at least someone making real good reproductions? (who, and where and how?)
b) and is the tang sight install simple and non-destructive to the old rifle, isn't it? just screws on? receiver sight the same, if the rifle is already drilled for it?


Or if there's ALL SORTS of discussion about this issue, lay it on me!


I want to
- learn
- and get lots of good data to move forward with


Thanks all,


James

[BUGEYE]

The older 94s are already drilled and tapped and there's several places to buy peeps.
I've always used "williams gunsight company".
I've used peeps since I was a kid and prefer them over scopes.

[SHOOTALL]

If your gun is tapped on top you can use a HS Percision sight it is one I have used and liked . I don't know if they have a side mount option but you can check them out on line. Another option is full buckhorn rear sight ( I think that is the name) the sight forms a larger peep as the "horns" circle up and almost touch at the top. It was what the fix was back in the day. It allows you to still have a cood view on either side of the sight .

[Ladobe]

Something I also would have to do if I were ever to use my 40's (war years) 94 again.    I'd use peep that were standard for the rifle even then.   But as suggested a full buckhorn might work for you, and there might also be ghost ring available for 94's. 

[spruce]

Don't know how long the 94's have been drilled/tapped from the factory for peep sights, but look for two small (6-48 size?) plug screws located near the top rear left side of the receiver to see if it is.
 
Even with perfect young eyes a "peep" or aperture sight will be somewhat fuzzy.  You can't focus on two different distances at once and the proper way to use a peep sight is to focus on the front sight and let the rear sight "fuzz out".  Tang sights work great, but personally I never got comfortable with something that close to my eye!  They are still available - check at Brownell's, Midway, etc.
Receiver sights as made by Williams and Lyman are also available and use the two screwholes in the side of the receiver for mounting.  Different size apertures are available that simply screw in the sight, or you can unscrew the aperture and use the big hole for a ghost ring type of sight.  I've long had a Williams Foolproof model on my M94.
 
Another option if yours is not already drilled/tapped is a Skinner barrel mounted peep sight that simply replaces your current dovetail mounted rear open sight.  Marble's also makes their Bullseye sight that uses the barrel dovetail.  One advantage of these is that don't really change the original "lines" of the rifle as much as the others if that's important to you.

[Dee]

I have a 1958 Model 94 3030. It was bought new in 58. I long ago replaced the rear sight with a Lyman 66 receiver sight, and several years ago I installed a Marbles tang sight zeroed for 300 yards. It is and has been for 54 years my go to rifle whether I was hunting game or men (retired L.E. and tracker). I've messed with the Minis, and owned a lot of ARs but the Model 94 I have always trusted completely. Carry it awhile, and so will you.
My eyes are not what they once were in close (I'm 63), and the front sight (also long ago replaced with a striped post) got blurry with a larger aperture, so I screwed in a smaller one. Problem solved.
My receiver came factory drilled and tapped for the Lyman 66 receiver, but I had to drill and tap the tang, for the Marbles. No big deal, took longer to set it up, than to actually drill and tap it.
Good luck,

[eastbank]

top is a win model 64 made in 48-49 with a williams side mounted peep sight, bottom is a win 1894 made in 27-28 with a lyman tang peep sight, the marbles tang sight uses the same holes for mounting. eastbank.

[bilmac]

You'll love a good reciever sight on your 94. You'll wonder why you didn't do it as soon as you bought the rifle.  I'm not a fan of tang sights though, just too close to my eye. And the rifle I tried it on was a 357mag!  As has been said before, let the hole fuzz out, your eye will naturally center it.

[bilmac]

Forgot to mention, change out your bead front sight for a post. Beads have no definate aiming point and sunlight coming from different places will cause you to aim differently. A simple post doesn't have these problems.  There is a reason why almost all military rifles are set up with an apeture rear and a post front

[spruce]

+1 on what Bilmac said about a post front sight.

[JamesD]

Hey thanks everybody.


I can just “feel” my thinking evolving 

The older 94s are already drilled and tapped and there's several places to buy peeps.
I've always used "williams gunsight company".
I've used peeps since I was a kid and prefer them over scopes.

Bugeye - I’m just kickin’ myself (figuratively) for not having my rifle right here before starting this thread.
I KNOW that the tang has two screws/holes in it, the upper one I assume making it tang sight ready.
But I THOUGHT I remembered that the receiver was NOT drilled and tapped for a receiver sight.
Do you think I’m remembering wrong?  Do you think around ’45-’47 they were all being drilled and tapped?  - Thanks




SPRUCE -> read in red in-line please

Don't know how long the 94's have been drilled/tapped from the factory for peep sights, but look for two small (6-48 size?) plug screws located near the top rear left side of the receiver to see if it is.  {I'm achin' to know, but the rifle's not with me now grrr }
 
Even with perfect young eyes a "peep" or aperture sight will be somewhat fuzzy.  You can't focus on two different distances at once and the proper way to use a peep sight is to focus on the front sight and let the rear sight "fuzz out".  {10-4} Tang sights work great, but personally I never got comfortable with something that close to my eye! {I'm wonderin'} They are still available - check at Brownell's, Midway, etc. {didn't some of these rifles come with receiver sights on them from the factory? what sight would that have been on a '40s-ish 94?  A Lyman something-or-other?}
Receiver sights as made by Williams and Lyman are also available and use the two screwholes in the side of the receiver for mounting.  Different size apertures are available that simply screw in the sight, or you can unscrew the aperture and use the big hole for a ghost ring type of sight. {10-4} I've long had a Williams Foolproof model on my M94. {can you find something sort of "vintage"? from that era? on eBay or Gunbroker or somewhere?}
 
Another option if yours is not already drilled/tapped is a Skinner barrel mounted peep sight that simply replaces your current dovetail mounted rear open sight.
Marble's also makes their Bullseye sight that uses the barrel dovetail.
One advantage of these is that don't really change the original "lines" of the rifle as much as the others if that's important to you.
{Hmmm... on the one hand, wouldn't be "vintage" or "period" to the rifle; on the other hand wouldn't require drilling any new holes; on the third hand, you decrease your sight radius; but on the fourth hand, the sight would be further away from presbyopic eye!  LOTS TO THINK ABOUT}

Thanks Spruce


James
.

[JamesD]

I have a 1958 Model 94 3030. It was bought new in 58. I long ago replaced the rear sight with a Lyman 66 receiver sight, and several years ago I installed a Marbles tang sight zeroed for 300 yards. It is and has been for 54 years my go to rifle whether I was hunting game or men (retired L.E. and tracker). I've messed with the Minis, and owned a lot of ARs but the Model 94 I have always trusted completely. Carry it awhile, and so will you.
My eyes are not what they once were in close (I'm 63), and the front sight (also long ago replaced with a striped post) got blurry with a larger aperture, so I screwed in a smaller one. Problem solved.
My receiver came factory drilled and tapped for the Lyman 66 receiver, but I had to drill and tap the tang, for the Marbles. No big deal, took longer to set it up, than to actually drill and tap it.
Good luck,

Dee,

This is quite a post.  I'm understanding much that was said, and much that was unsaid.

- I understand about the front post √
- and I think I understand the bio-optics of the smaller rear aperture, fascinating
- but clarify please: you have replaced the receiver sight with the tang sight?
- but mainly I'm SO curious - you mention "LE and tracker" and you mention "300 yards"... what round?
Old thuty-thuty round nose? Hornady Leverevolution? Something of your own creation?

Thanks for posting in my thread, sir.

James


.

[JamesD]

top is a win model 64 made in 48-49 with a williams side mounted peep sight, bottom is a win 1894 made in 27-28 with a lyman tang peep sight, the marbles tang sight uses the same holes for mounting. eastbank.

Eastbank - great pictures, thanks!


Tell me please: your 48-49 model 64... was it drilled and tapped from the factory?


James

[JamesD]

You'll love a good reciever sight on your 94. You'll wonder why you didn't do it as soon as you bought the rifle.  I'm not a fan of tang sights though, just too close to my eye. And the rifle I tried it on was a 357mag!  As has been said before, let the hole fuzz out, your eye will naturally center it.

Thanks bilmac.

This thread has really been good for me.
Lots of opinions, some good pictures.
The tang sight might work great, but I KNOW that a receiver mounted peep will work because of my experience with my grandfather's .22 (see OP)

And the post up front.

THEN all I'll have to do is find some way to increase the L.O.P. for my l-o-n-g  gangly arms and neck, and I'll have me a shooter!

Thanks a lot for your help.

James

Forgot to mention, change out your bead front sight for a post. Beads have no definate aiming point and sunlight coming from different places will cause you to aim differently. A simple post doesn't have these problems.  There is a reason why almost all military rifles are set up with an apeture rear and a post front

[spruce]

Not sure how you define "vintage", but the Lyman receiver sight has been around a long, long time.  The Williams sight is not as old, but I got mine sometime in the late '60's and they were around before that, just don't know how long.
 
The tang mounted sight is the most accurate of all iron sight options.  However, I just never warmed up to them.  The rifle handles a little differently with one of them mounted on the top tang.  I like to wrap my thumb over the top of the tang when I shoot and the sight is in my way, as it is when I cock the hammer.  These 2 "problems" are just personal preference.  A friend of mine has a '94 with a Marble's tang sight and he loves it.
 
If possible, I'd suggest you visit some gunshops and/or gunshows and try to find an example of each setup you could actually handle to get more of an idea what you like before you lay out the cash for one.
As far as lengthening the stock you also have options.  A simple slip-on rubber pad, leather pads that lace on or secure with velcro, fitted screw-on pads - some that come to mind.

[Dee]

The CLOSER, you can get your eye to the aperture, the more accuracy your gonna wring out of your rifle. THAT is why the tang is more accurate than the receiver sight. With my old eyes I have a medium aperture on the receiver to hunt brush, where the slightly fuzzy front sight picture is not so critical, but for the long shot, I slip the receiver sight off, and stand the tang sight up, and the front sight becomes "clear as a church bell".

[Rangr44]

FWIW, Winchester added the receiver peep sight prep, two holes D/T'd & plugged with headless scres, to the uper rear LH receiver walls of the Model 94 in 1952 - so a pre-war Model 94 should only have the factory tang peep sight prep (one hole D/T & plugged) on the rear tang.
 
If you don't want to alter the gun, your only options would be either a Lyman or Marbles tang sight - both of which require a tang screw longer than issue, supplied with a Lyman, extra cost/order with a Marble's.
To obtain the desired clear/clean sight picture, with either a receiver or tang peep sight, the existing rear barrel open/iron sight should be either swapped for a folder or replaced with a dovetail slot filler blank (bought or made).
I prefer a folding rear bbl sight, since then the rifle can be zeroed both at a relatively short range (say 50yds) with the folder, and a somewhat longer range (say 150yds) with the tanger.
It's a snap. while hunting, to travel with the tanger "down" and the bbl sight up, in readiness for a close/quick shot on game - Since there's usually ample time to fold the bbl sight & raise the tang sight if/when a longer shot presents.
 
YMMV, of course.......

 
.

[Ranch13]

You might want to look into one of these rear sight blade replacements.http://warrencustomoutdoor.com/ohs-winchester.html
I like it due to that it does not bulk up the rear of the reciever , or get in the way like a tang sight will, and will deliver deliver plenty of accuracy.

[Dee]

I have a 1958 Model 94 3030. It was bought new in 58. I long ago replaced the rear sight with a Lyman 66 receiver sight, and several years ago I installed a Marbles tang sight zeroed for 300 yards. It is and has been for 54 years my go to rifle whether I was hunting game or men (retired L.E. and tracker). I've messed with the Minis, and owned a lot of ARs but the Model 94 I have always trusted completely. Carry it awhile, and so will you.
My eyes are not what they once were in close (I'm 63), and the front sight (also long ago replaced with a striped post) got blurry with a larger aperture, so I screwed in a smaller one. Problem solved.
My receiver came factory drilled and tapped for the Lyman 66 receiver, but I had to drill and tap the tang, for the Marbles. No big deal, took longer to set it up, than to actually drill and tap it.
Good luck,

Dee,

This is quite a post.  I'm understanding much that was said, and much that was unsaid.

- I understand about the front post √
- and I think I understand the bio-optics of the smaller rear aperture, fascinating
- but clarify please: you have replaced the receiver sight with the tang sight?
- but mainly I'm SO curious - you mention "LE and tracker" and you mention "300 yards"... what round?
Old thuty-thuty round nose? Hornady Leverevolution? Something of your own creation?

Thanks for posting in my thread, sir.

James


.

.    I shoot 150 Jacketed RN bulk bought Remington bullets, 748 Winchester powder, at about 3400fps. Find a load you like and stay with, and ignore the gun rags and all those charts. You'll be happier if you do.

[spruce]

Dee,
 
I think you've found the Holy Grail of handloads - you might want to check that fps!  That would definitely be a "one shot per rifle" load in a model 94.

[Dee]

Ya, I think you could be right there . I'm on my iPhone . I meant 2400fps