Super max prisons and solitary confinement

[Conan The Librarian]

I read a fascinating article about the widespread use of solitary confinement in the US prison system. 80000 are in solitary confinement now, and it's a form of punishment known to ruin people. It's torture. A lot of the prisoners are not particularly dangerous or disruptive,mand there have been many cases of first offenders for relatively minor crimes who were sent to super max prisons because that's where there was room for them. It cost about three times as much to incarcerate a person in a place like that versus a normal prison, because more guards and staff are needed.


Quite scandalous.

[Ranger99]

i've not been to jail of any kind ever
because it's too easy to obey the law,
so i can't speak of how living there is.
my neighbor in the country and several
others in the area work at one of the
largest and toughest prison complexes
in the state. from some of what i've heard
them speak of, there is a definite need
for solitary confinement. the fellow living
closest has been hit, nearly shanked,
had feces thrown on him a few weeks ago,
and they have to constantly be on alert to
keep from getting attacked or killed.
prison should be an unpleasant place to
be. it's supposed to be punishment when
someone can't follow the rules of a civilized
society. i can look out 2 different windows here
right now and look at where 2 different ex-cons
are living right now. both really should be
still locked away. down the street there are
2 different ex-con child sexual predators
living, i know this because of the law we
have here requiring notification of residents
when a convicted child pred. moves into
the neighborhood. i've known several ex-cons
and worked with some that tried to be honest
and fly right, but just couldn't resist the criminal
path. it's way too easy to
not drive drunk, or not break in a house, or
kill someone for their flashy tennies.
never have been able to figure that out.


like the lady said, just say no.

[FPH]

I think all forms of inprisionment should be a form of solitary confinement.  No TV, just the good ole library and moderate exercise.  Should be able to hear a pin drop.

[FPH]

Of course, they should be growing their own food and be self sufficient.....like TX use to be.

[BUGEYE]

A lot of them are being turned loose because of imagined over-crowding.
I say that each bed could have three prisoners assigned to it. give each prisoner eight hours in the bed while the other two are working on the farm which feeds them or in a prison factory making things to pay for prison operating costs.
a prison need not be a burden to the taxpayer and criminals should be kept to do their entire sentence.
One act of violence against a guard (such as throwing feces) should get them plenty of time in solitaire.

[finisher]

Of course, they should be growing their own food and be self sufficient.....like TX use to be.

***************************
Brewbaker! Brewbaker! Brewbaker! 

[finisher]

A lot of them are being turned loose because of imagined over-crowding.
I say that each bed could have three prisoners assigned to it. give each prisoner eight hours in the bed while the other two are working on the farm which feeds them or in a prison factory making things to pay for prison operating costs.
a prison need not be a burden to the taxpayer and criminals should be kept to do their entire sentence.
One act of violence against a guard (such as throwing feces) should get them plenty of time in solitaire.

*****************
I had to "hot rack" a couple of times very briefly when I was in the Navy. Just have to hope your bunkie isn't a friggin "soap dodger". 

[magooch]

Truly dangerous inmates need to be in permanent solitary, or if they are so bad that they can never be released back to society, my preference would be to send them on their way and let a higher power decide their destiny.


I do not believe regular prisons should be a place where gangs and organizations are tolerated at all.  Recreation should be very limited and only allowed as a reward for very good behavior.  Absolutely no body building, other than whatever calisthenics could be done in their cell. 


Only minimum security facilities (with minimal risk inmates) should be allowed to participate in food, or any other production activities.  For those same types of prisons, I would allow some educational perquisites.

[Jim, West PA]

I read a fascinating article about the widespread use of solitary confinement in
the US prison system. 80000 are in solitary confinement now, and it's a form of
punishment known to ruin people. It's torture. A lot of the prisoners are not
particularly dangerous or disruptive,mand there have been many cases of first
offenders for relatively minor crimes who were sent to super max prisons because
that's where there was room for them. It cost about three times as much to
incarcerate a person in a place like that versus a normal prison, because more
guards and staff are needed.

Prison is meant to be a punishment and hopefully a time of rehab.Maybe solitary confinement for these ones could be memorable enough to deter them from future crimes.

[Conan The Librarian]

The problem is that it's being over-used.
 
After reading some of the comments in this thread, it's clear that there's a misunderstanding. The solitary confinement I'm talking about is for years, not short punishments. The result is a person that is not reformed, is deranged, and usually clinically insane. The people in question are the large number of people who are there just because the space was available, not because their crimes or behaviors warranted torture.
 
There was a description in the article I read about the supermax prisons. There are so many small cells in these prisons that the amount of concrete used to build them was unprecedented and it created a lot of engineering challenges.
 

[Swift One]

The people in question are the large number of people who are there just because the space was available

This statement is untrue.  People do not get put into one man cells just because space is availaible.   One man cells and super max prisons are literally a prison inside a prison.  Those beds are reserved for violent offenders, Protective custody offenders, and offenders that pose a serious threat to others while in General population settings.  While I agree that with being in one man cells for a prolonged period of time can and has caused some mental issues, they kind of put themselves in that place.  There is a saying by the corrections staff that work in supermax prisons.  "We don't hand out invitations."  Those offenders have trully earned the right to Long Term solitary confinement. 
 
Prison by itself is a very misunderstood place to those that have not worked or lived in one. It truly is something that a person has to experience in order to make heads or tails of it.  There is a very real need for supermax prisons and general population settings that allow offenders more freedoms. 

[Conan The Librarian]

SwiftOne:
 
I think there are exceptions to what you've written.
 
Articles like this have been around for a while, but now I'm seeing numbers where the number of prisoners went up from about 20k to about 80k in less than 10 years.
http://articles.latimes.com/2001/mar/11/news/mn-36119
 
The Dec. 6 Rolling Stone did a story on the Tamms supermax and gives a number of examples of how the supermaxes and solitary are being abused.
 
I'm observing what appears to be a trend, not just picking up a single set of anecdotes.

[handi243]

Sir i can tell you they are there because of the crime or the behavior. I work in a prison every day. The problem is the public has no idea the rights that a prisoner has when they go into prison. What u see on TV or in movies is so backwards!!!!!! I can get me A@% beat or cut, stabbed or have urine and poop thrown on me and he gets 3-5 more months!!!!!!!! i know because it happens everday!!!!!!I saw the program that u are talking about. We had a officer get cut over 200 stitches with a box cutter from the neck up! The inmate got 18 months and he was serving 18-20 years do u think he cares?   

[JonnyReb]

 If I was incarcerated, I would pray for solitary confinement.  J

[tom548]

I retired from working in the prison system, you can tell that some one has poor info as soon as they use the word "guard". That terminology has not been in use for many years. I was also the Supervisor of what you would call a Supper Max. Inmates are not put there just because there is room they have earned the cell. These inmates are the worst of the worst.  (Any one that feels bad for them I may be able to arrange for a couple of them to spend a week or two with you at your home it would be a nice break from that terrible solitary confinement. (Just Kidding) And it is very true that only people that work in the prison's relay have an understanding of what these people are relay like. These inmates are sent there from general population. because they are dangerous and very disruptive inmates.

[Conan The Librarian]

Tom548:
 
To what do you attribute these persistent and increasing stories about solitary confinement both, in Supermaxes and elsewhere? From what I've read, the following is true:
1) The supermaxes and other high security areas of prisons do indeed hold the worst of the worst, but
2) They are increasingly used for people who are not considered dangerous or disruptive. And this has increased to a seriously problematic level.
 
My understanding is that there have been congressional investigations that agree with those points.
 
 

[Swift One]

Conan, I am not disputing that there are and always is going to to be some form or another of abuse of the system.  And I am only speaking for my state when I say the following: Supermax cells are not used just because the space is available for Housing an offender.
 
I am not not sure where the other fellow corrections staff that have responded to this post work at, but, they are spot on with their statments.  Like what was said before, prison is a VERY misunderstood place to those that have not lived or worked at one. You basically have two crowds that represent the unknowing:
 
1.  Those that believe that prisoners have absolutely no rights and should be treated as if they are locked into a 12th century dungeon.
 
2. Those that believe that all offenders have the ability to reform and many programs and aid should be givien to them so they have every opportunity possible to get that reform.
 
Those that are in the know (corrections professionals) understand that prison need to be ran somewhere in between the two unknowing crowds' opinions for most of the prisoners.  Correctional professionals also know that there is a core group of prisoners in this country that through their behavior in the streets and in prison have earned the right to be locked into a cell for 22-23hrs a day and get 2-3 officer escorts with them (while the prisoner is cuffed, shackeled, and in some cases a lead attached to them) whenever they come out of a cell to go to another location.
 
I along with most other staff that work in a correctional facility, understand and advocate the rehabilitation of a prisoner- if they want it and are willing to work for it.  If hey decide to remain a menace to the general population and corrections staff while incarcerated- well, they need to be removed from everyday operations and treated as a threat to the prison society.

[Conan The Librarian]

SwiftOne:
 
That is fascinating. I think the stories are, like so much journalism. It may be picking out exceptions. Then tying two more or less unrelated things together: High incarceration rates in the US, and a few cases of abuse.
 
There was a really good book published during the 1970s about prison life at Walla Walla. It was very well done, and very informative: Concrete Mama.

[Swift One]

SwiftOne:
 
That is fascinating. I think the stories are, like so much journalism. It may be picking out exceptions. Then tying two more or less unrelated things together: High incarceration rates in the US, and a few cases of abuse.
 
There was a really good book published during the 1970s about prison life at Walla Walla. It was very well done, and very informative: Concrete Mama.

Well, make no mistake about it Conan.  There is no real 100% full-proof solution, for today's prison system in the US.  Capitol Punishment, supermax prisons, and over-crowding are real concerns for both corrections professionals and civilians alike.  However, of the three mentioned, overcrowding is really an issue that needs to be addressed with how easy it is for a person to get put in prison.  Lots of folks with low level or nonviolent felonies doing time behind a wall or fence that could easily do it while on home arrest. If there was ever a real abuse of the three, overcrowding would be it.
 
Supermax prisons and capitol punishment however, have so many protocols in place before an inmate ends up in one of those situations, that most if not all offenders that are in one of those situations are supposed to be there.  There will however, always be a few exceptions and I am not going to even sit here and lie and say that somehwere in the US is a prisoner or two on death row or a super max cell that does not belong there.  Nothing is perfect and of course that is not an excuse- just a fact.

[finisher]

Maybe some of the COs here can enlighten me on the following. My brother, who I will just say has lead an extremely "interesting" life has never been convicted of any kind of violent crime in his life.


He was sentenced to eight years in a federal maximum security facility for giving out two phone numbers (over the phone) to the wrong people (won't get into details, lets just say "he did it"). He spent about a year of that in solitary.


Now he has never been an angel or kept the best of company but I've heard of rapists and child molesters doing less time. (The judge told him that he was essentially being sentenced for all the things in his past for which they couldn't convict him. Proactive sentencing without due process; imagine that).


Anyway, he went into the teams when he was in the Navy and he specialized in EOD/demolition, held a very high security clearance, and served for nine years. He has been told by a few people that this could have been the reason why he was placed where he was. The truth is, his training and education make him an extremely dangerous individual but as I said, He has never been convicted of any crime involving weapons or violence. So why maximum and solitary?[size=78%] [/size]


Can anyone shed some light on this?

[Swift One]

Federal prisons house quite a few high ranking drug kings, terrorists and High security prisoners like that.  I am speculating here because I do not work in a fed prison, but I would assume since your brother is now a felon (and with that all the stereo types come with that package), that the officials are trying to minimize interaction between your brother and the more ruthless convicts so your brother cannot "teach" them the black art of what he has been taught in the service.  Not saying that he would, I am just thinking like a correctional officer.  Not that the complete inter-communication network of a prison's residents is nothing short of spectacular and in reality he could probably get that intel out anyways with realtive ease.  But, the prison officials need to at least put an honest effort in thwarting the possiblitly.  Again, I am speculating for the fed prison based on what I have seen at the state level.

[tom548]

Conan;   What I wrote was from 30 years of working in the system. Believe it or not I could care less. Was just trying to give you some accurate info, as it was in our state system.

[Conan The Librarian]

I think that's another topic. Crime is flat or declining, yet imprisonment is going up exponentially. I've read that about one in three black men are imprisoned at some time. That's amazing.
 
Not necessarily related, but I've also read that the explosion is because of drug offenses, with the perps being basically harmless otherwise. Certainly not angels, but probably not belonging in prison either.
 
 

[BUGEYE]

I think that's another topic. Crime is flat or declining, yet imprisonment is going up exponentially. I've read that about one in three black men are imprisoned at some time. That's amazing.
 
Not necessarily related, but I've also read that the explosion is because of drug offenses, with the perps being basically harmless otherwise. Certainly not angels, but probably not belonging in prison either.

when a drug dealer is convicted, he should lose one thumb. on a second offense, the other thumb and one finger.  third offense, the rest of his fingers. fourth offense, one eye. fifth offense, the other eye.   now if dealers knew for sure that it would be carried out like that, they'd find another job.
around here, young people brag about the length of their rap-sheet. prison is not much of a deterrent.

like Ranger99 said, obeying the law is easy.

[Conan The Librarian]

I think Harvey Silverglate is right: Following the law is not easy, and there are so many laws that every one of us has probably committed multiple felonies lately.

[guzzijohn]

Quote from BUGEYE:
"when a drug dealer is convicted, he should lose one thumb. on a second offense, the other thumb and one finger.  third offense, the rest of his fingers. fourth offense, one eye. fifth offense, the other eye.   now if dealers knew for sure that it would be carried out like that, they'd find another job."


Sound like that came right out of the Sharia laws book. Are you converting BUGEYE?
GuzziJohn

[Swift One]

Sound like that came right out of the Sharia laws book. Are you converting BUGEYE?

No, he is just one of the unknowing.  He has a carreer with the airlines, and has never had to deal with a prison setting.  I will bet my paycheck on that. He falls into the 12th century dungeon crowd because he knows no better.

[finisher]

Quote from BUGEYE:
"when a drug dealer is convicted, he should lose one thumb. on a second offense, the other thumb and one finger.  third offense, the rest of his fingers. fourth offense, one eye. fifth offense, the other eye.   now if dealers knew for sure that it would be carried out like that, they'd find another job."


Sound like that came right out of the Sharia laws book. Are you converting BUGEYE?
GuzziJohn

*****************
You took the words right out of my keyboard Guzzi. Bugeye there are countries to which you can move if that is the sort of thing you'd like to see. Thailand and the Philipines come to mind along with Iran. Perhaps you'd be happier there, so long as they were all Christians.

[finisher]

I had a professor who was an ex CO and he referred to the job as exactly what TM7 mentioned; "human warehousing". I've been told that the privatization of the corrections system is supposed to be unconstitutional.


Can anyone elaborate on this?

[BUGEYE]

Quote from BUGEYE:
"when a drug dealer is convicted, he should lose one thumb. on a second offense, the other thumb and one finger.  third offense, the rest of his fingers. fourth offense, one eye. fifth offense, the other eye.   now if dealers knew for sure that it would be carried out like that, they'd find another job."


Sound like that came right out of the Sharia laws book. Are you converting BUGEYE?
GuzziJohn

wasn't even thinking about muzzies when I wrote that.  just thinking that would cut down on the prison population.  don't ask what I think we should to to child molesters and rapists.
BTW, the head muzzie was a child molester.