30-06 Reduced load help, please

[wvmedic]

 My Wife and I both have a Savage 11/111 30-06 22” barrel with a 1-10 twist.
We hunt primarily Whitetail Deer, though there is a chance at Black Bear in our area. We might also choose to travel south for a chance to hog hunt.
So what I am looking for is a load that will cover the above from 0 to 200 yards with a load using 150-170 grain bullets with the recoil and ballistics some were between a 30-30 and a 300 Savage. I have seen this question asked and I haven’t seen a definitive answer.
Is there a manual I could buy that will list a load like I’m wanting? I would be more than happy to buy one. I currently have the Lee 2^nd edition, Hornady 8^th edition and Nosler #6 as well as the Lyman pistol and revolver 3^rd edition.
I have loaded the Nosler 125 Gr BT with H4895 using the youth load, recoil is great but the Wife shot a Doe with this load and didn’t recover the deer. It was near the end of legal shooting light on the last day, she and her brother found what they described as a lot of blood but it got to dark to track. It happened to rain and snow that night, and I had to work the next two days so I couldn’t track it. I wasn’t there so I didn’t see the shot or the blood, I’m not going to say it was the bullets fault. I just want more confidence in our loads.
I have also seen the question come up saying why not just use a 30-30, well to answer that before it is asked. I prefer a bolt action and they no longer make a 30-30 bolt action and a 300 Savage is not offered by Savage in the 11/111. Also 30-06 brass is a lot easier to get and I can buy factory ammo off the shelf just about anywhere if I need to. I can handel the recoil of the 30-06 and I think the Wife could as well, we just do not want to. Please do not take the last as being sarcastic, it is not. I just wanted to explain our reasons for my choice.
So could you help me find or develop a safe dependable load? The current powder I have on hand is H4895, I have seen some comments about extreme muzzle blast with it though.

Thanks, Jeff

[necchi]

Here's a reduced load calculator, you'll have to know your desired velocity, and I have no idea how safe reduced loads are.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/reduced.asp

[YRUpunting?]

If you have H4895 you have all you need.  Go the the Hodgdon data center and filter for H4895 and the bullet you want to try.  The floor with H4895 is 60% of the max load, so use any amount between 60% of the max and the max. 

Good luck.

Dan

http://www.hodgdon.com/

[wvmedic]

necchi, thanks. Though I'm not sure how safe that would be, I've only been reloading a short while. I have a lot to learn still.
 YRUpunting?, I will give that a try. I need to get a chronograph though so I can get an idea of velocity and energy when I get an acceptable load with recoil and accuracy.
I was wondering if there is any other powder I could try to get in the 2200 FPS area and use the 170 grain 30-30 bullet.
 
Jeff
 

[Flynmoose]

You might take a look at SR4759 powder. It is bulky and I have seen some reduced loads printed somewhere. Hodgdons site may have some info on that powder.
FM

[PowPow]

wvmedic - I sent you a PM about IMR SR-4759.

[Larry L]

I've been reloading reduced loads for the Boy Scouts that I teach reloading and basic shooting. I use SR4759 for the powder. It's recommended for reduced loads and has been for decades. It has about the burn rate of IMR4227 which means it's a quick powder and burns so clean you'll never know a round went off in the chamber. DuPont recommended this powder and has data in their hand out manuals but I doubt you find any manuals today since Hodgdon took the distribution over. From my manuals which also include Speer #9, for a 150 gr bullet. I load for the Scouts 19.0 grs SR4759 which gives me about a 70% estimated case density and a velocity at 1700'ps. Accuracy in any rifle I've ever shot it in is near one hole, and that includes rough barreled 03A3s. From the DuPont manual you can go as high as 31.0 grs with a 150gr bullet and that should be near compressed loading. Velocity is 2365'ps so you have lots of room in between to find a sweet spot for your rifles.From the Speer manual, 25grs gets you 1925'ps. The load for the Scouts will hunt to about 150yds for our smallish Texas deer. Recoil is near non-existent which is why I use it for the Scouts. The boys get to shoot 3006 man rifles with almost no recoil and makes them want to shoot more. The downside to SR4759 is that it is bulky and as such is a poor candidate for using a powder measure. But a Lee Dipper Set makes it go real fast. Considering you're probably not going to load hundreds or thousands of rounds, weighing each powder charge won't be that much of a factor. Regardless of what powder you use, you will need to resight the rifles in for the reduced loads. On an 03A3, raising the rear sight to 300yds puts it on the money at 100 yds using the Scouts load. I would suggest any brass you use for reduced loads to be kept separate from other brass. After a couple of firings, the firing pin has hammered the datum line a hair forward on the brass and using these cases for full loads is akin to excessive head space. Not good. I only use brass 5 times at reduced loads and then they are garbage. By then the primers are starting to back out of the pockets and I won't risk hurting any of the boys.

[necchi]

  After a couple of firings, the firing pin has hammered the datum line a hair forward on the brass

What's that mean, hammering the datum line forword?
Is there another way to explain that?

[Larry L]

Yes sir, the datum line is how deep a chamber is suppose to be cut. The measuring point on a 3006 case is at the shoulder where the brass measures 0.375. That's the datum line. For minimum headspace the depth should be 2.0487 and max at 2.0587. Now consider the firing pin at 25 lbs/Newtons which is about average for a 3006 rifle. You have a 25 lb sledge hammer hitting the primer at fairly high velocity or as we like to call it, lock time. It hammers the brass forward into the chamber and because there is low pressure from the reduced loads, will shorten the case at the datum line with every drop of the firing pin. Now that the case is short, it yields the same condition as excessive head space as it no longer fits the chamber. Should you use brass in this condition with normal pressure loads, when the round goes off, the sides of the brass will grab the chamber walls like it suppose to but the head of the case will be hammered backward from the combustion pressure causing it to split at the head, just like in an excessive head space condition. I've seen 3006 cases that folks have repeatedly fired with reduced loads that were having issues with the rounds going off. It was because the firing pin wasn't traveling far enough to hit the primer in the short brass. When the round is suppose to measure at least 2.0487" but measures 2.0220,for example, that's getting into dangerous territory even with reduced loads.

[sr sawyer]

 LarryL, a very good response and you covered it all.  I was gonna post but glad you beat me to the punch because you did a better job than I believe I could have done.
 
Ken

[Larry L]

Ever so once in a while I screw up and do something right, Ken. Please don't spread it around. You'll mess up my perfectly lousy reputation.

[Dand]

Thanks for the thoro explanation Larry!  I'll be making up some practice loads for my 14 yr old and I need to tone them down a bit.  I think I'll go for the 300 Sav level or a bit more so hopefully I don't have to worry as much as if I was going really light. He's pretty tough and has shot a fair bit of full power 150, 165 and 180 gr stuff - but it isn't always fun in his light Savage - even for me.  I've got a lot of 4064 so I think I'll start at the low end for it.


I too was going to mention the Speer manuals.  They all have reccomeded light loads.


And then there is the cast bullet option with Unique and a few other powders........in the Lyman books.

[anweis]

If you have H4895 you have all you need.  Go the the Hodgdon data center and filter for H4895 and the bullet you want to try.  The floor with H4895 is 60% of the max load, so use any amount between 60% of the max and the max. 

Good luck.

Dan

http://www.hodgdon.com/

That is the best option. I have used H4895 for reduced loads in 4 calibers, but not 30-06. I can tell from personal experience that in such a large case (30-06), the 60% of max load may not be enough for good accuracy. I usually find that 80% of the maximum load works best for accurate and safe reduced loads.
 

[wvmedic]

Larry thank you for that explanation, I was having a hard time understanding that. I have read about it before, but you explanation of it makes it very clear as to what is occurring.

[LanceR]

Larry is right about Hodgdon no longer publishing SR-4759 data for reduced loads and they specifically withdrew any recommendations to use it for reduced loads maybe three years ago.  While I was researching for an article on the subject of reduced loads about two years ago they explained that a lot of the published SR-4759 data had not been actually tested with the newer formulations so they don't recommend its use.  They also caution that some reduced loads of SR-4759 can lead to excessive pressures as it changes the burn rate.

Strangely enough, even though Hodgdon markets SR-4759 and does not recommend SR-4759 for reduced loads they also told me they didn't have control over the reduced load data available online under the IMR web pages.  Go figure....

While I know some bullet makers list reduced loads for other Hodgdon marketed powders I think that I would err on the side of caution here.  Hodgdon knows a lot more than the bullet makers about how their powders function and if they only recommend H-4895 reduced loads since it is the only powder they have fully tested I'll follow Hodgdon's advice.

YRUpunting is also correct that for H-4895 reduced loads you take the max charge for any cartridge/bullet combo listed ON HODGDON'S WEBSITE you can reduce it down to as low as 60% of the max for reduced loads with consistent ignition and pressures that result in consistent velocities. 

According to Hodgdon, listed data for jacketed bullets and gilding metal bullets such as Hornady's GMX are interchangeable with other jacketed or gilding metal bullets of the same weight.  They stress that for Barnes X bullets or other copper bullets to not interchange data for jacketed or gilding metal bullets.

Hodgdon publishes H-4895 data online for bullets from 110 grains to over 200 grains in 30-06 so you have a lot of choices. 

For recoil calculations I use the calculator at JBM Ballistics.  You can make a rough estimation of the velocity reduction by comparing the velocity difference of the normal published minimum and maximum charge velocities and carrying that per grain of power velocity reduction out.  For instance the velocity reduction for a 150 grain bullet in a 30-06 using H-4895 is about 50 FPS per grain and that will get you into the ballpark for estimating velocity so you can compute recoil and probable trajectory.

From my experience (and guessing on a 7.5 pound rifle weight) I suspect you'll be around 36-37 grains of H-4895 to get to the 2400 FPS area with a 150 grain bullet in order to hit the recoil levels you wrote about.  To get a 170 down to 2200 FPS I suspect you'll be looking at about 36 grains and similar recoil levels as the 150 grain example (12-13 pounds).  At 200 yards such a round nose bullet will only be going about 1600 FPS and may be below the velocity threshold needed for full functioning on target.

Lance

[Larry L]

As you probably found out in your research LanceR, Hodgdon manufacturers nothing. They are a repackager/retailer.  Most of their popular rifle powders come from ADI and most of the pistol powders come from Primex. SR4759 comes from Expro of Canada which is a subsidiary of General Dynamics. Per a friend of mine in management at GD, Alan Babbit, he said that SR4759 is the same formulation but Hodgdon gets a much better deal on their purchasing of A2206H which is their H4895. So they make more money selling that rather than the SR4759. That's the reason for the change of recommendation, it's all about the money, as usual.
As with any reloading, start low and work up. YMMV

[3030guy]

I've used IMR 3031 and 30/30 bullets in my '06. It was just under a max load, very accurate, light recoil. Didn't get a chance to use on game but I wouldnt hesitate. I have my notes packed away from a move or I'd give you the details. I used a Tikka T3 Lite bolt action.

[geezerbiker]

I've made light 06 loads with .300 Savage data and IMR4895.  It's a light load but strong enough to push the case all the way back in the chamber so there is no shoulder set back.

Speaking of shoulders, these loads are certainly easier on mine... 

Tony

[goodconcretecolor]

The Lee manual has extensive info on reduced loads. I have used 4759 with only 19 grains in a 30-06 and fired 2 moa groups consistantly with 110 grain bullets( I use this as a plinking and practice load).It has the reputation for being relativly insensitive to powder position and 4198 has a similar reputation and allows higher velocities. Both are used extensivly in the Lyman manual for cast bullet rifle loads and so are proven safe in reduced loads.

[wvmedic]

First I want to say thank you for all the replies, I'm sorry for taking so long to comment. I've been really busy.

I do have a question in regard to the light loads and case life. I understand what Larry L is saying about the datum now, but at what point is the pressure to low? For example Hodgdon recommends 46 to 51 grains of H4895 for a 150 grain Nosler, if I were to use say 42.2 grains which per a ballistics program gives a little more than a thousand pounds of energy at 350 yards and just over thirteen pound of recoil.
Would the pressure from this load be sufficient enough to not cause the datum line to be hammered back?

Thanks, Jeff

[Larry L]

There is no one exact answer as to how much pressure is required to fire form brass. Consider the brass thickness. A 22 Hornet is less than paper thin versus a 308 Nato which is more than twice as thick. Obviously the 308 requires more pressure to fireform. If you look at the SAAMI pressure standards, you'll see that a rimless cartridge will have pressures at or exceeding 40,000PSI with most above 50,000. The exception to this is the 35 Remington but it has changed over the years. Originally it was at 33,500PSI and most factory ammo now is at 40,000PSI. I would consider for max brass life you'd need to be at or near 40,000PSI to maintain the correct datum line. The data I have only goes as low as 45.0 grs H4895 with a 150gr bullet yielding pressure at 44,400CUPs. Your load of 42.2 grs is going to be close. Might consider that the starting load and go up until you hit the right node for accuracy. Just remember, the bullet speed is irrelevant if you can't hit anything with it.

[wvmedic]

Okay Larry,  thanks. I appreciate the info. I'm still relatively new to this.

[YRUpunting?]

There is no one exact answer as to how much pressure is required to fire form brass. Consider the brass thickness. A 22 Hornet is less than paper thin versus a 308 Nato which is more than twice as thick. Obviously the 308 requires more pressure to fireform. If you look at the SAAMI pressure standards, you'll see that a rimless cartridge will have pressures at or exceeding 40,000PSI with most above 50,000. The exception to this is the 35 Remington but it has changed over the years. Originally it was at 33,500PSI and most factory ammo now is at 40,000PSI. I would consider for max brass life you'd need to be at or near 40,000PSI to maintain the correct datum line. The data I have only goes as low as 45.0 grs H4895 with a 150gr bullet yielding pressure at 44,400CUPs. Your load of 42.2 grs is going to be close. Might consider that the starting load and go up until you hit the right node for accuracy. Just remember, the bullet speed is irrelevant if you can't hit anything with it.

Larry, thanks for the education.  One of my spring projects is getting a reduced load worked up for my 30-06.  I was going to start way to low with H4895 and didn't realize it wouldn't fire from the brass properly.  I know this is a subjective question, but if using a 150 grain bullet and the minimum or near minimum charge to fire form brass as you describe above how much is recoil being reduced?  Is this going to be more like a hot 243, 7mm-08 or 308?  Other comparison?  What's your best guess?  I'm wondering if this is even worth pursuing and I'd be better off just picking up a lower caliber rifle.

Thanks,
Dan

[wvmedic]

YRUpunting, I can't speak to you're first question.  But to the question of is it worth it, I would say there are a few factors to concider when answering that. Most of which I see as a personal decision,  I chose to go with the 30-06 mostly due to availability.  I had considered a 25-06 and a .308 but were not available in the package I wanted at the time. Also if I were to go on a Black Bear hunt, the 30-06 is more than capable.  There is also the factor of available ammunition, just about anywhere you go you can get 30-06 ammunition,  from Wal-Mart to the local hardware store. I'm willing to spend a little more and give up some of the life of my brass to get a custom load for my Wife mainly, though I like a little lighter recoil myself.

Jeff

[Larry L]

Dan, up until about a year ago I would have given you wrong information. I had the opportunity to chat with one of the powder formulators for the Hodgdon bunch and the subject was their Super Performance powder. If you think that the bullet weight is the reason for the recoil, you'd be wrong. I know, physics says there is an equal reaction to every action. So try to understand that a bullet weighing in at 150 grs can beat your shoulder to death in a long shot string-it isn't going to happen. The recoil produced is mostly from the jetting action of the hot gases as they exit the barrel. You have to remember that the gases are coming out of the barrel faster than the bullet speed. The bang that you hear is the gases breaking the sound barrier. So effectually every time you pull the trigger, you have just fired off a rocket engine. The Super Performance powder that's yielding lower recoil is a fast burning power. It's formulated to ignite quick, reach max pressures quick, hold that pressure and then fall off super quick. Of course this happens in milliseconds but that's the reason and design for their newest powders. The pressure falling quick is the reason for the reduced recoil. It eliminates some of the jetting action of the gases. So the key to reduced recoil is not just lower powder charges but using a bulky powder that yields decent loading density and is fast burning. That pretty much describes SR4759. Down side to it is that it will not go thru a powder measure. But to say just how much recoil you'll get, I have no idea exactly. I can tell you a max charge of 31.0grs SR4759 with a 150gr bullet yielding 2400'ps in an O3A3 makes recoil less than a 243. My plinker loads for the Boy Scouts in the same gun has about the same recoil as a 22Mag. That's 19.0 grs SR4759 under a 150gr FMJ. Those loads will not fireform, however. Using H4895, I have no idea as I don't use it as a reduced loading powder. It's going to have more jetting action than SR4759 just because of the burn rate. SR4759 is more like a pistol power burning close to IMR4227. It works fabulous in large pistol cases like a 30-30 pistol. Might consider picking up a can of SR4759. I've never known anybody that's tried it to be disappointed.

[YRUpunting?]

Larry, thanks again for the explanation.  Another experienced reloader suggested SR4759 but as you said Hodgdon quite publishing the data.  I've only been reloading for about a year which is why I picked up a can of H4895, data was easy to understand and I could use it across a few different rifle cartridges at reduced or full loads if necessary.

It sounds to me that unless a reduced load case can be measured that the case has fully fire formed then the they should only be reload five times and then to the scrap bucket.  For a control case (fully fire formed) a mid-level or higher load would need to fired for the brand of brass being used for the reduced load.

Larry, thanks again.