Author Topic: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI  (Read 3776 times)

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Offline JesterGrin

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Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« on: January 13, 2013, 09:36:07 PM »
 Well I bit the Bullet so to speak and got in line for a chance at a once in a lifetime for me  draw for a Elk license in Wyoming :) . And by the way they are Darn PROUD of that license lol.

 So Please Correct me if my plan is wrong since I have never done this before.


 I was planning to keep things simple and that was to use a 250 Gr Speer Hot-Core or also known as a Grand Slam in both the 358 Winchester Savage and the .35 Whelen AI.

 I am pretty confident in the .35 Whelen AI And the 250Gr Speer Hot-Core since I have seen what it will do on a HOG. But the .358 Winchester is another story. So any good information would be GREAT.

 Use the .358 Winchester for shots that I do not expect to go over 225-250 yards and the 35 Whelen AI if I expect the range to stretch out to 300 yards or a tad further. And if I know it will be close range say 150 yards carry along my Marlin 1895 GS in 45-70 with Home Cast Ranch Dog 350Gr GC that move around 1900 FPS or so.

 Thank You. :)

Offline roper

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 05:26:58 AM »
If you hunted the area before and knew max yardage was 400yd I'd do all my hunting with that rifle and my back up rifle would do the same.  If you wanted to take 3rd rifle say hunt the dark timber for elk open sight rifle be good for that or if you haven't hunted country before back up could be mag rifle for longer range..


Offline Wyo. Coyote Hunter

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 07:20:11 AM »
 ;) Roper has some great advice..While much of elk hunting can be in heavy timber, much today is also in very open country..A couple units east of here is all prairie land..with deep canyons..

Offline JesterGrin

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 09:10:36 AM »
 I guess my Main question was bullet selection for the .358 Winchester? Currently I have the Speer 250 Gr Hot Core and the Speer 250 Gr Round Nose.

Offline roper

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 11:34:27 AM »
I guess my Main question was bullet selection for the .358 Winchester? Currently I have the Speer 250 Gr Hot Core and the Speer 250 Gr Round Nose.

My 35 Whelen AI for elk I use 225gr  AB.  I won't be hunting with 358 Win so can't help there.

Offline flinter54

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2013, 07:21:48 AM »
Hey Jester,


If the magazine of your .358 is long enough to allow the Nosler Accubond, then I would shoot those as well. That bullet driven at 2400fps and sighted in at 200 yards, is only 11 inches low at 300. May think WOW 11 inches in a hundred yards. That would make it tough if you were hunting woodchucks. But I'm guessing a good mature bull is 30+ inches from backbone to brisket. So an 11inch drop is down right moot.  Not to mention it has more energy at 300 yards than the good old 30-30 with a 170gr FP has at its muzzle and the 30-30 has accounted for hundreds of elk. If the accubond will fit in your magazine, I would use that or the same weight Nosler Partition.


Good Luck!


Flinter.

Offline anweis

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2013, 08:10:37 AM »
This is about hunting, not about trying guns and taking 3 of them to one hunt. Get a grip man! Focus on hunting, shooting skill, hiking with a heavy backpack to get in shape and break in your boots, climb 300 stairs per day, etc.
Just use the one gun that you are familiar with. Put one bullet in the lungs  (i assure you they are not bulletproof) and the elk will not ask whether it was Accubond or Hotcor. There is no way of telling where the elk will be. Be ready for anything from 50 to 350, and learn to hold the rifle steady from field positions, nobody will carry a range bench for you. Shoot prone, sitting, off sticks, whatever. Learn to hit a 4 inch clay from field positions at 200 yards (say, three times in a row, off hand). This is what it's about, not whether the cartridge is AI or not. One more thing: instead of fretting about three guns and bonded bullets, ask yourself if your scope is good enough for the hunt of a lifetime. I've seen guys going 800 miles on $3,000 hunts with $80 scopes. I'll let you guess the rest. 
If you are absessed about bullets and calibers and forget about the hunt you may end up with a less than enjoyable or successful hunting trip. Elk are not hunted like white-tails, where you sit in a stand and ponder ballistics and core separations to stave off boredom.
Ok, just to throw gas on the fire, you are all wrong in choice of calibers. The .338 Federal is better than the .358, and you should take one to hunt in deep forest (but only with flat nosed bullets, discontinues or pricey), and the 6.5x55 recoils less and kills just as good as the .35 but is has better ballistics and you can shoot it better. There you have it.  :D 

Offline RevJim

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2013, 05:50:58 AM »
 I've only shot a few cows, so I'm no expert. I used a 30.06 (180) a .375 H&H (300 BT) and a .338 Win Mag ( 185 XLC). I loaded the Speer 160 HotCor for a friends .280 AI and he also shot a big cow with that load. all of them worked swell ( actually, the 300 BT made the biggest mess! I was going to use it in South Africa and was testing. I ended up using 270gr Winchester Fail Safes) I've shot about 25 head of Plains Game with mostly medium calibers, the 300WM being the smallest. I love those mediums on heavy game!
 I agree that (a) Wyoming is "extremely" proud of their Non Resident tags, ha and (b) the elk could be anywhere from watching you take a poop to the next ridge over, ha. I like the 35 calibers for elk, based on much use on elk size animals in south Africa. I used my own beloved, treasured, never to be parted with Mod 700 35 Whelen AI with both the 250X and later the 200X. My closest shot was about 30 yds. on a Gemsbok ( 250X) and 347yds on a Black Wildebeest (200X) I just found a great load using the Nosler 250 PT so will use it next.  Anything over 250yds is a long way! In elk country, its tempting to take a shot at elk further than one should. It doesn't have as much to do with the rifle as "finding where he was standing" when you made the shot. It isn't reasonable to count on him DRT, but he will most likely run a bit. In the prairie its not so bad, in the mountains, its a nightmare. Snow is a big help for blood, but not for tracks as a 100 elk could have walked there. Once you walk over to where you thought he was, everything looks different, etc. If you have a guide or a buddy, it helps to have him keep an eye on a landmark and watch as you walk over ( walkie talkie helps) to look for sign.
 Now, with that in mind, your 35 Whelan AI is fine with the 250s ( about perfect in fact) the 200 TTSX is very flat shooting too. The 358 could work with the 250, but a 225 Partition or 200 TSX is more useful....know where both hit out to 300, and let that be your Max. There is an old saying that 90% of the elk spend 90% of their time in 90% of the thickest stuff! ha. I like to hunt the edges of dark timber/lighter timber and a light, fast handling rifle really helps. I use my 35 AI with a synthetic stock in Fall, (Leupold 1.5x5) and in its wood stock and (Bushnell 3200 2x7) in late hunts . I agree also with making double dog sure your scope is a good one! I still keep iron sights on my Whelan with QD rings, just because I had a high dollar Zeiss quit on me in South Africa on a lightweight .340 Weatherby! You guessed it, slick barrel. Thankfully my friend was using a 300 Winchester that I had given to him, so it was no stretch to finish out my hunt.
 Oh yea, my first cow was shot running, 135 steps, through an Aspen edge, headed for the timber. The 30.06 180 spined her, popped her again when she was trying to get up. Second cow was right at 200yds, lounging with family at a beaver pond, open shot, with the 375. She humped up with a high lung shot. Since I was afraid she was going to run into a close, deep canyon, I popped her again. Could stick your fist in both exits; scratch the 300 sierra for that! My Third was on a late season hunt (think snow!) with the 185 XLC out of the 338WM at approx. 250yds, up on the ridgeline above me. Lung shot, she stumbled 10yds and dropped. I just slide her off the steep ridge toward the trail/ she hung up between two aspens and I thought I would have a heart attack getting her free! wow!
So yes, unless you are lucky enough to shoot them off a hayfield ( my personal preference!) you need to be in good shape and hire a guide or have some hunting buddies. Solo elk hunting is very hard on us old, fat guys, ha. Have a ball, but take care of yourself.

Offline JesterGrin

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2013, 01:13:26 PM »
Well the reason 3 Rifles is that the person that is nice enough to take me on the Hunt informed me that we may go to different areas to hunt. Some have longer distances such as the 300+ yard range and some with about a 200+ yard range and others that are dense surroundings.

My 35 Whelen AI is a Long Heavy Rifle. Since the Barrel is right at 26" and it is a Heavy Mag contour straight taper barrel . So it would be good for longer distances.

My 358 Winchester is short with a 20" barrel but still not light again with a Mag Contour straight Taper barrel.

So in Reality I could omit the Marlin 45-70.

The more I think about it I can probably get by with just the .358 Winchester with a Hornady 200Gr SP?  But I have also thought about the Barnes 200Gr TSX.

Offline anweis

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2013, 04:47:37 AM »
Any .35 bullet, except the soft ones meant for the .35 Remington, will do just fine. In fact, shooting those 220-some graines at 2,000-2,500 fps will likely get you excellent penetration without bullet blow up. It's the magnums that do that. Nevermind the core separation and the weight retention hype. Any 220-250 grain .35 chunk of lead at that velocity will kill an elk whether it gets to their lungs in one piece or in 3 pieces. 
Fretting about bullets and rifles should not be your focus. It does sound like your rifles are heavy and not best suited for lugging on 5 mile hikes up the montain. How about a Ruger American or similar, in 30-06 or similar, with a Zeiss Conquest or similar scope?. That will set you back $750, a small price considering the expense of elk hunting. The focus here should be on your ability to hike around with the rifle and hit targets at 300 yards or so from field positions. Whether you do it with a heavy .35 AI or a light .308, with Noslers or Sierras, it doesn't matter.  What matters is you practicing for the hunt and the shot.

Offline RevJim

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2013, 04:47:20 PM »
 I think I'd have that little 358's barrel fluted and maybe put in a Brown Precision High Country synthetic stock. I'd put a Leupold 1.5x5 on it too.....I like them a lot. I'd then work up a load with either the 200 TSX or 180 TTSX and zero it +3 high at 100, shoot it out to 300 for drop/etc.
 

Offline petemi

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2013, 01:46:24 AM »
All the caliber's you mention will take an elk at 300 yards....including the .45-70.  You don't need a close range gun.  Any of the three will work fine.  I'd pick the one that handled best for me and shot most accurately.  Then, I'd LEARN it.  Shoot it from 100 to 350 yards.  Know what it does.  I'd take a second for a spare to keep handy just in case something went haywire with number 1. 

What anweis said.....getting yourself trained and fit is more important than which elk gun to use.  You can't even take a flatland horse into the high country.......forget about an out of shape human.

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Offline roper

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2013, 10:33:06 PM »
Well the reason 3 Rifles is that the person that is nice enough to take me on the Hunt informed me that we may go to different areas to hunt. Some have longer distances such as the 300+ yard range and some with about a 200+ yard range and others that are dense surroundings.

My 35 Whelen AI is a Long Heavy Rifle. Since the Barrel is right at 26" and it is a Heavy Mag contour straight taper barrel . So it would be good for longer distances.

My 358 Winchester is short with a 20" barrel but still not light again with a Mag Contour straight Taper barrel.

So in Reality I could omit the Marlin 45-70.

The more I think about it I can probably get by with just the .358 Winchester with a Hornady 200Gr SP?  But I have also thought about the Barnes 200Gr TSX.


You got this "Once in Lifetime Hunt" as you called it with maybe 300 yd plus shot.  What if their not in that area partners already changed once.  If I'm taking someone with me elk hunting he get a shot before me and I'll do everything I can to get him in good elk country.

Co got a pretty good law he would kills it tags it.    Here you get a good bull (could be any game animal you have a tag for) and he runs off wounded doesn't matter the yardage he's fair game for any hunter. 

Your better to take little more horsepower hunting.  Your 35 Whelen AI is too heavy what's going to happen when you get an elk down?

Offline bigswede

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2013, 12:24:11 AM »
I'm with the other guys.  Take the one that fits you the best and that you can shoot the best.  My personal elk rifle is a 350 Rem mag shooting 225 gr Sierra's.  It has a 20" barrel and is handy as heck in the thick stuff but will knock em flat out to about 400 yds. 

I was wondering which Speer bullets you have?  The Hot Cor or Grand Slam?  There is a huge difference.  The Grand Slam is a way heavier bullet that will penetrate like know ones business, the hot cor is a good bullet also and it has the advantage of a higher BC than the grand slam.
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Offline JesterGrin

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2013, 09:52:55 PM »
I was wondering which Speer bullets you have?  The Hot Cor or Grand Slam?  There is a huge difference.  The Grand Slam is a way heavier bullet that will penetrate like know ones business, the hot cor is a good bullet also and it has the advantage of a higher BC than the grand slam.

I have both the Speer 250Gr Hot-Core and the Speer 250Gr Grand Slam. They are the same weight and look the same. They have not made the Grand Slam in Years. But I have a decent supply for a Hunting Cartridge. It is not like I am Blasting away with a .22 LR lol.  :)

Offline rickt300

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2013, 05:09:10 PM »
The Elk hunt I did in october 2012 I took a 7MM Remington magnum and my 35 Whelen. The Whelen was loaded with a somewhat hot load using H380 and the 250 gr. Speer Hotcor. Unfortunately the only elk killed was by my buddy using the 7MM magnum, range around 125 yards.
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Offline BBF

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2013, 06:11:54 AM »
If you use the 358 Win I'd be looking at a shorter bullet than the 250 gr Spitzer types you have.
 
You are going to be about 12" low at 300 yards if zeroed @ 200 with the 250 gr HC and similar with the Hdy 200 gr SP.
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Offline Sweetwater

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2013, 07:23:29 PM »
Interesting stuff. I love my 35's, but have yet to shoot an elk with either of them. Dad took all his elk with a 30-06 and 180gr Nosler Partitions. Shot most of mine with my 8x57 Persian Carbine and either 200gr Nosler Partitions or 175gr Sierras. Another one I shot with my Grandfather's 94 Winchester 32WSPL and 183gr cast bullets. All of these were shot between 65 yards and 275 yards. Elk are not super beasts, but they do need to be hit right, ie bullet placed correctly.
Yeah, if a 9 pound rifle is too heavy, you better have a crew to handle anything you put on the ground...
IF the 358Win was my choice, it would be paired with 225gr Nosler Partitions or 247gr cast bullets. Whatever you choose, you can never have too much practice, on your feet, away from the bench. I picked up a new to me rifle last year, did not use it but just a little, blew the only shot I had on an elk this fall. Never had I ever missed an elk! Practice!!!!
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Offline JesterGrin

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2013, 11:16:27 PM »
Well I came up with this plan.

For the .358 Winchester I picked up a couple of boxes of Hornady 200Gr Spire Points to use on the Elk Hunt

And for the .35 Whelen AI I plan to use my Speer 250 Gr Grand Slams.  :)

Offline anweis

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2013, 03:45:11 AM »
that is not a plan, it's a purchase of supplies.
By now you should have decided which of your rifles you will use, loaded 2-300 rounds, adjusted the scope, and practiced away from the bench at 50, 100,. 200, and 300 yards.

Offline JesterGrin

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2013, 08:32:30 AM »
With the lack of Bullets because of the craziness I was not able to purchase them till now.

But I really lean towards the .358 Winchester as for some reason I just like it and can hit with it. I do practice but with my Cast Loads out to 200 yards without a problem as a range that has further out targets is a drive.


As for my 35 Whelen AI I do not have it back from the builder as of yet. :(


And I fully understand pushing the practice thing. But I have been shooting since I was 6 and I am 50 now lol. Believe me I know how to shoot lol. It will not take me long to be comfortable with the Hornady 200 Gr SP in the .358 Winchester. :)

So to this end I would like to ask if the people here would be comfortable with the performance of the .358 Winchester out to 300 yards with the Hornady 200 Gr Sp? I will load them as Hot as accuracy allows with TAC. So they should be humming along in the 2600-2700 FPS Range.

Offline flinter54

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2013, 05:14:44 PM »
JesterGrin,


The 358 Win paired with the 200gr Interlock at those velocities should get the job done just fine. Is the 200gr product the standard Interlock or is it the Flextip? (Interlock with a flexible plastic tip. Increases the BC from .248 to .300) With either of these you should be in the neighborhood of 1300-1400lbs of energy at 300 yards. As we all know, shot placement is the key to success.  With that said, the only caveat is you may need to be a little more choosy with your shot. At that distance I personally would probably opt to pass on a hard quartering too or quartering away, unless it was that 400 class monster that's walking around out there.  ;D


If you are able to get your hands on the 225 Nosler Partition it might be worth taking a look. You should be able to achieve 2500fps using Tac. With that velocity, it will actually be a HAIR flatter than the 200's and it should arrive with around 1800 lbs of energy. I know, no animal is going to tell the difference between the 200 and 225's, but if you have the opportunity to use the 225's why not take every advantage you can get. Just my .02


Have a great hunt!

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2013, 05:49:53 PM »
I think your rifle and back up rifle choices are fine.
But Wyoming is not Africa and you care not going to have a gun bearer to lug the other gun (s) around with you.
I would plan on using the 35 IA and bringin the 358 as a just in case rifle.  You can fall and break a scope, bend a barrel, crack a stock.  the spare rifle is more about not giving up or borrowing a rifle and having one that you know and can make hits with. 
Good luck on your hunt.  Post pictures of the hunt when you get back.  Even if you do not score.

Offline JesterGrin

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2013, 07:09:24 PM »
Flinter I think I said this or I said it wrong lol

 But I got to place and order for the Hornady 200 Gr SP InterLock for the .358 Winchester. It is not the Gummy Tip Design. I have those but due to some feed back I have decided that they may not be the right choice for what I am going to do.

 For the 35 Whelen AI When or if I get it back in time I am going to use the Speer 250 Gr Grand Slams or the Hot Core Depending on how each shoot as they are both good bullets for the intended purpose from all I have read. 

Offline FPH

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2013, 04:19:58 AM »
Either rifle is fine.....get to know them and know where they hit from 50 to 500 yds.  Practice shooting off hand( most folks can't shoot off hand worth a hoot) and get your lungs & legs  in shape.  Have a good hunt.  I'd take the .35 AI as my primary....but that is a personal choice.

Offline flinter54

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2013, 02:27:05 PM »
Hey JesterGrin,


No you didn't say anything wrong, Reader error on this end.  :D


Anyhow, that Hornady 200 interlock should do what you need it to do. I will have to do some homework, but I do believe the Flex Tip version is the same interlock design with the gummy tip. Not sure if the jacket is thinner or if it is a softer lead core than the standard 200.


Here is a picture of the Flex Tip after going through 4 milk jugs and ending up in the 5th. Velocity was in the mid 2400's and the first jug was about 10 feet away. Pretty tough if you ask me.


Like you I'm waiting on a 35 AI as well. I cant wait to put it through its paces.


Well good luck and good hunting.

Offline JesterGrin

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Re: Elk Hunting ? For the .358 Win and .35 Whelen AI
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2013, 09:31:15 PM »
Flinter the 200 Gr FTX or to say Gummy Tip was designed for the Lever Action in .35 Remington. So being as I am not sure it would hold up I settled on the Hornady 200 Gr Interlock.

But I know there are a member or two here that will use the 200Gr Gummy Tip in there .358 Win and pushing them in the upper 2600 FPS range. And they have reported good results for Deer.