Twenty Gauge: Do Magnum shells equal denser patterns?

[mannyrock]

Dear Guys,
 
   I'm looking for some real world experience here.
 
   If you have a fixed choke barrel, and are shooting 2 3/4 high base shells with a 1 oz. load, and at a given distance (say 35 yards) you find that your  shotgun shoots your favorite pellet size (say #6) in a pattern that is too thin, would you expect to get a denser pattern at that same distance by switching to 3 inch magnum shells with 1 1/4 oz of #6?
 
    I have heard different things on this, such as  "magnums don't throw denser patterns, only wider patterns", and "you are giving up so much pellet velocity by switching to a magnum with 1/4 oz more shot that you loose too much game killing power."   
 
   On the velocity side, in comparing Fiocchi shells, it appears that your velocity only drops by about 30 fps, which doesn't sound like much too me.  (1,230 compared to 1,200).
 
  Hunting squirrels, which are tough game.
 
  Thanks for all info.
 
Mannyrock

[SHOOTALL]

Maybe !
It would depend on many things but that was the reason I believe they came about. But with more shot you will deform more shot causing flyers in some shells. I think what is also found is your pattern is not so much wider but longer . A swarm of shot that arrives on target at about the same time will inflict more energy and do more damage as more pellets hit at the same time causing more shock. So when you pattern a load unless you have a moving pattern board you will think the pattern is fuller but in reality as the target passes thru. the swarm of shot many are already passed or have not arrived. If you want tight patterns look for magnum shot or plated shot as they tend to deform less and also come in better built shells.

[dukkillr]

We must have pretty different squirrel hunting experiences.  I never found them to be even remotely difficult to kill, from air rifle through 12 ga. 
 
In your present situation I would think you would be better off just moving up a shot size to get more killing power.  If you think you're losing too many squirrels with a 20 ga shooting 6s, first you should probably get closer.  Second, try 4s.
 
Finally, to answer part of your question, yes.  1 1/4 oz 6s will pattern denser than 1 oz 6s through the same gun.

[Lonegun1894]

Another thing that has always worked for me is that the longer shot string of the heavier payload has worked better for stationary targets like a turkey head, or a squirrel sitting on a branch, or anything of that sort, while the shorter load that arrives all at once has always performed better for moving targets such as dove or clays.  Hope that makes sense so someone other than just me.  I know this has proven to be correct based on personal experience, but I don't know if I explained it right.

[mcwoodduck]

Of course throwing more shot will make your pattern more dense, but at the same time why not just shoot 7.5's.
More pellets per ounce is going to make your pattern more dense.  Personall I like the 7 shot size.  Almost the killing power of a 6 but with a lot more in an ounce.  If you reload get a bag of 7's (not 7.5) you will be impressed.  I use them for most of my upland hunting and pot loads.  I also have found the 7/8oz loads to be better out of my three 20ga at 1175FPS out of the 26" guns. 
I find the larger the shot the harder it is to kill a tree rat.
With a pellet rifle, no problem.  Shooting goose loads from the goose blind with 3" #2's caused problems where i had to step on the wounded squirrell to kill it. 
Also have you taken a few rounds out to the range with new card board and see what the different loads will do at 30 yards?

[mannyrock]

 
    Dear Guys,
 
   Thanks for all the great info.   The squirrels I hunt are huge fox squirrels, in tall red and white oaks, in the mountains.  The last one I shot, he was way up there and I had the bead right on him. I was only standing about 10 yards from the trunk of the tree.   
 
    Took two 20 gauge shells of high base one-ounce #5 to bring him down.   I was surprised to see that he had only been hit with two pellets, one right through the side behind the shoulder, and one right through the rear of his nose.
 
    So, I am going to move up to the magnum #6s.  An extra 1/4 oz of shot will hopefully make the pattern more dense.  I don't have much faith that #7 1/2 shot will have the oomp to kill them.  I will pattern the magnum shells before using them to hunt.
 
      The bad news is that I only have a cylinder bore barrel.   It patterns well with high base shells at 25 yards, but I haven't tried the magnums.   I know that 25 yards is a very short distance, but I only hunt in extremely dense woods, always get within 10 yards of the tree, and try to always keep my shots short.  Somehow, the idea of banging squirrels off limbs at 45 yards with a full choke barrel has never appealed to me.   I really enjoy stalking up close to them.
 
  Thanks again,
   Mannyrock
 
   
   
 
 

[mcwoodduck]

We went hunting in Montana.And Phesants were on the list so I bought some high brass 5 for my 12 ga.
A bird got up and I hit him good with the 5's and he fell and ran off, we could not find the bird even after 10 minutes of walking a grid like a CSI team.
Later in the week I had the 20 out as we were shooting huns in the hedge rows and at the edge of one of the fields a pheasant got up and I hit him with the 7/8 oz of 7's and similar flight similar hit and he was stone dead by the time I walked ot the edge of the field.  I am convinced that the smaller shot hit him in more places and did the job.  The 7's are heavy enough to carry through the quail and huns I hunt and very few shot are found in the birds.
I also use the 7's in my pot loads.  I load a Remington STS hull with blue dot and 1 1/4 ounce of 7's I had tried 6's but was not hitting as many birds for money.  Once I changed to the 7's, there were three of us using those shells and all three of us were 1,2,and 3 when we are normally in the middle of the pack.
I think a denser patteren is what you need to make sure you put enough pellets on the fox squirrel to hit the blood bearing squishy parts inside.  But that is just my opinion.

[mechanic]

I've been hunting them with a 410, #6, 2 3/4 and have taken them out of the tops of the tallest trees.
 
Try patterning your gun on paper at about 40 yds. and then try someone else's gun as well.  Some shotguns just don't pattern well at certain distances, regardless of shell type.  And a full choke is not always....
 
Ben

[52bagman]

If you are shooting squirrels from tall trees you are shooting between 30 and 40 yds, up.

[cudatruck]

Have you considered having choke tubes installed? not real expensive and will add a bunch of flexablity to your barrel.

[SHOOTALL]

FWIW i use a shotgun when the leaves are on the trees and a 22 LR other times .

[mannyrock]

 
  Thanks Guys.  For once, I agree with all advice that has been given.
 
   I am going to pattern the gun with #6 magnum, and hope to find it significantly denser.  If not, then I note that Colonial Choke Tube Co. will install tubes for a very reasonable fee. 
 
  As for hunting with a .22 LR, I just can't bring myself to fire a .22 rifle skyward.  I miss far too much!
 
Best Regards, Mannyrock

[D Fischer]

I think that a better option than using mag shells in a 20ga is to step up to a 12 ga and 1 1/8 oz loads. They were all I shot when I used a 12 ga. Now I use a 16 ga and 1 oz loads. I think it's also silly to load up those really heavy long 12 ga loads over getting a 10 ga. I have never ever patterned a shotgun and never haqd a lot of trouble. But from about the time I started shotguns, I have read that the best pattern's come from square shot loads. I don't know if that's true or not but I've never kept around a shotgun that I didn't deo well with. And I think that the prtoblem with some guns is more mechanical problem with the gun or mental problem with the shooter than the load or how it pattern's. If your gun handles right and you really do believe you can hit with it and, of course, have a lot of practice shooting it, that's the biggest part of the battle.

[beerbelly]

I bought some 3" hulls and loaded a few. But for the most part I think will stick with the 2& 3/4. I saw some improvement in pattern denisity but that was of set by a much stronger kick and more cost in loading.

[mcwoodduck]

  Thanks Guys.  For once, I agree with all advice that has been given.
 
   I am going to pattern the gun with #6 magnum, and hope to find it significantly denser.  If not, then I note that Colonial Choke Tube Co. will install tubes for a very reasonable fee. 
 
  As for hunting with a .22 LR, I just can't bring myself to fire a .22 rifle skyward.  I miss far too much! (But even if you hit all the time you still need to line up the shot so that a pass through would still hit a back stop of the or a tree trunk)
 
Best Regards, Mannyrock

[mannyrock]

 
  Well Guys, good news and bad news.
 
   I test fired that cylinder bore 20 gauge at 30 yards, using Federal Premium High Velocity Turkey Loads, 3 inch magnums with 1 5/16 oz of coper plated shot.   These have a patented flight wad for a very tight pattern.   It shot great.   At 30 yards, it put about 50 pieces of shot into a paper plate, with very even spread.
 
  Yes, they costs about $1.50 per shot.  But, I don't shoot that many squirrels per year, so I don't care.
 
  The bad news:  I just found out that these shells have been discontinued!
 
  Rats,
 
Mannyrock
 
 

[BUGEYE]

    Dear Guys,
 
   Thanks for all the great info.   The squirrels I hunt are huge fox squirrels, in tall red and white oaks, in the mountains.  The last one I shot, he was way up there and I had the bead right on him. I was only standing about 10 yards from the trunk of the tree.   

next time, forget the bead and blot him out with with the end of the barrel.  my dad taught me that trick in the early 50s. you are probably shooting under him.

[mcwoodduck]

Since this is a cylinder bore, is it a cut down barrel?
Generally the geometry of a barrel and then cutting it down has you shooting high.  You need to raise the bead and force the front end down. 

[SHOOTALL]

quit aiming and point 

[mannyrock]

 
    Well, ya'll have got me laughing.
 
    Cylinder bore:  No, this shotgun was not shortened.  It's an old skeet gun, with fixed cylinder chokes.
 
    Point instead of aim.  Yea, I've been shooting skeet for 42 years.  I've got the concept. :-)
 
   Best, Mannyrock

[Couger]

 
For "big 20gagg pellets" I like 5's over 4's ........
 
But you need to add some choke to your shooting equation, and then pattern your gun with 6's, 7 1/2's (sevens if you could find them!), and some 5's.
 
If your average shot is indeed 35yds, methinks 1oz high brass loads would be FINE!  Even on your goliath fox squirrels.
 
Sorry is I was redundant!

[pastorp]

How did you like the recoil on that magnum load ? I never did. That's what they made 22 rifles for, squirrel hunting.  yeah I know you don't like shooting up in the air. Say those squirrels are in trees right. And all those trees stop 22 bullets pretty good IME.

Regards,

[Ranger99]

i've killed bunches of squirrels with
all kinds of firearms, starting with
.177 pellet guns when i was a kid
and have never had a problem with
killing power.
do you think that possibly you may be
killing and they just don't fall like
you'd expect. i've had that happen
just a very few times where one got
a good grip and was dead, but hadn't
let go from up in the tree. the last time
i was using a .22 and had shot 4 or so
times(yes-i dont like shooting upwards
with a rifle either) and had to shoot it
once more before it fell. the thing had
a hole in it for every shot i took and
any and all of the shots were good lethal
shots. just like any other game animal,
sometimes it does happen.

[Doublebass73]

Only the patterning board will tell the story. I have two 16 gauges. One patterns better with 1 oz loads and the other patterns better with 1 1/4 oz loads so no, more shot does not always equal denser patterns. It depends on the gun.

[dakotashooter2]

  Thanks Guys.  For once, I agree with all advice that has been given.
 
   I am going to pattern the gun with #6 magnum, and hope to find it significantly denser.  If not, then I note that Colonial Choke Tube Co. will install tubes for a very reasonable fee. 
 
  As for hunting with a .22 LR, I just can't bring myself to fire a .22 rifle skyward.  I miss far too much!
 
Best Regards, Mannyrock

Have you considered using shorts or other low velocity loads.  A few years back  I was reading meters and caught a lady on the edge of town shooting squirrels out in her backyard with the .22 because they were causing so much trouble. She was worried I was going to turn her in dispite the fact she only shoots in the direction of the open field. Instead I told her to use Aguila Cobris..... A low velocity round powered only by the primer and practically silent. I even tracked some down and bought a carton for her. I check in with her now and then and she is killing as many squirrels as ever and regularly shoots out to 20 yards ( she is a pretty good shot and says she rarely has to shoot twice).
Have you tried 7/8 or even 3/4 oz loads. Sometimes less shot means less deformation and better patterns. You never know till you try.

[mannyrock]

Dakota,
 
   The Aguila Cobris are absolutely not safe to shoot in a rifle.  Due to the primer charge only, they don't have enough pressure or oomph to reliably push the bullet down the length of the barrel, especially a 24 or 26 barrel as found on most of the older 22 rifles.   A bullet will easily get stuck in the barrel and the next round will hit, causing a barrel bulge or worse.
 
 
    I have posted before that I will not even shoot .22 LR CB rounds in a rifle anymore.  I have had the rounds get stuck in a barrel twice!    Others have have reported the same problem.  I use to shoot lots and lots of the stuff, but not anymore.
 
   Regards, Mannyrock
 
   

[spooked]

Dakota,
 
   The Aguila Cobris are absolutely not safe to shoot in a rifle.  Due to the primer charge only, they don't have enough pressure or oomph to reliably push the bullet down the length of the barrel, especially a 24 or 26 barrel as found on most of the older 22 rifles.   A bullet will easily get stuck in the barrel and the next round will hit, causing a barrel bulge or worse.
 
 
    I have posted before that I will not even shoot .22 LR CB rounds in a rifle anymore.  I have had the rounds get stuck in a barrel twice!    Others have have reported the same problem.  I use to shoot lots and lots of the stuff, but not anymore.
 
   Regards, Mannyrock
 
 

+1 no cb's or colibri in a rifle for me..
Dad bought us and old stevens 12 ga. ,when i was a teenager.  A 94 w/tenite stock. tried killing squirrels with it when the leaves were on and had very little luck with #6's....One day when everyone was gone, I backed off about 35 steps from the ole outhouse and cut drive on it...Thet dern "modifed" stevens put shot in the top and bottom of the outhouse ..a 6ft. plus pattern..got me a few 8's and tried them on squirrel...in a tall oak they would only put one or two shot in a gray squirrel...gave up on that ole blunderbuss and went back to the .22 till i was 24 yrs. old and bought me a decent 20 ga. ....

[Couger]

Only the patterning board will tell the story. I have two 16 gauges. One patterns better with 1 oz loads and the other patterns better with 1 1/4 oz loads so no, more shot does not always equal denser patterns. It depends on the gun.

Excellent point! 
CANNOT emphasize what DoubleBass is saying, enough!
 
Every gun (or barrel) is an "individual." 
They are NOT THE SAME -
one barrel to the next!
 
 
 
 
Also MacWoodie, great comments and skinny on shoot #7 - size shot! 
Never tried that size myself, although I have shot plenty of #6's and #7 1/2's.
 
For those that care about this size of pellet ......
 
Is is .10" inches in diameter, versus .095" for #7 1/2's, and .11" for number 6's.
 
And where there are @350 pellets in ONE ounce of 7 1/2's, and @225 pellets in ONE ounce of sixes, there are @299 pellets in ONE ounce of #7 (.10" diam.) shot.
 
Originally this post started asking about 1-ounce 20 gauge loads (2 3/4")  versus  1-1/4oz loads in 3" 20ga shells.
 
I reload, and if I was making 3inch 20 gauge shells, I would look seriously at loading only 1-1/8 ounces in a 3inch 20 gauge shell!  And no more!
 
By limiting myself to 1 1/8 ounces in a 3inch 20ga shell I can keep velocities higher where I like them to be (@1220-@1250fps for bird-killing loads), but also still have ample room for a good wad column as well!
 
In addition, I would tweek the shot-size to fit the density-of-pattern I needed to kill whatever I was hunting.
 
I rarely have need for anything bigger than a #5 pellet, usually at tough pheasants from a 12 or 20 gauge. 
 
Pheasants sometimes weigh 3 pounds or so,
but most upland birds never weigh more than 2 pounds!
 
So what I've learned is that #7 1/2's and #6's will kill 90-plus percent of what I might hunt.
 
I think #7's might be a great compromise between those two shot sizes, when that size of lead pellet is available!  THAT is the rub!
 
Plus 1-1/8 ounces of #7's in a 3inch 20ga shell will still give the hunter @337 pellets in a really hard-hitting pattern!  Capable of being loaded to 1300fps (Hodgdon data). 

[Oldshooter]

This has been an interesting read to be sure.
 
I am a firm believer in patterning a shotgun barrel.
 
 I love the part where mannyrock explining that he had figgered out about pointing his shotgun.   
 
 And cougar, heck I think should send you a check or sumpn. That was some good work, and a lot of thought and compilation.
 
I am wondering if the squirrls know how much trouble they are gonna be in.
 
Thanks guys I love to learn.

[mcwoodduck]

Cougar,
Not really on subject but I have a 10 ga and thought a 2 oz load of 9's at 1335 FPS would be the trick for an Annie oakly shell at one of the clubs I belonged to.  Figured a cloud of shot moving fast would work.  And the 9 from the 1 1/4 oz 10 ga seemed to evaporate at 1365 FPS but the 6's worked.
The smaller the shot size the slower it needs to go.  Changing that to 7.5's and the shells worked.  Changing that to 7's and the shells were awesome,  Same happened when I was building 1 1/4 oz loads for the 12 ga. 
I went ot 7's more for the weight of each pellet was so close to the 6 that they were almost equal in hitting power and the added shot could not hurt to close up the pattern.