Combat Shotgun for HD - This Forum?

[jeffcneal]

It's been several years ago, but I remember reading the results from a DOJ test that had determined the most effective combination to be an 18-20" barrel with an improved cylinder and #4 buckshot. If I remember correctly, the report stated that this recipe averaged out the best for shot density and lack of over-penetration. Of course this test was conducted before all of the HD specialty loads we have available today.
 
regards,
Jeff

[Couger]

..... Now! With that said, I know that at least one here will disagree, and as I said, I don't care. I have actually "BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT".
It isn't required that anyone take my word for anything I said, I gave good advice based on a lot of experience and training, and I have no intention of debating it.
Hope I helped,  Dan, aka Dee 

No disagreement from me.   
 
I'm familiar with a couple books written by Tony Lesce, also a former LE.
 
He wrote "The Shogun in Combat," and corroborates everything you said!
 
Author cited the 2 3/4" #7 1/2 standard trap load (1200fps velocity, 1 1/8oz of shot) as the [nearly] ideal house load for a 12gauge shotty, rarely penetrating two sheets of sheetrock in a standard American home!  Although it readily penetrated the first layer.
 
Lesce also favors 4Buck over double-ought (btw a 2 3/4" magnum of 4B has 34 pellets, while a standard 2 3/4" has 27 pellets).
 
TTinnchester used to make my favorite buckshot load,  a SuperX DoubleX 2 3/4" magnum load with 34 copper-plated 4B that they discontinued!      Was my favorite load!   
 
I killed two mule deer with that load at almost 50yds!
 
In addition, Environmental/Hevi-Shot make their "Dead Coyote" loads (that I have yet to try, they're EXPENSIVE!).  The Dead Coyote @Hevi-Shot loads are perported to penetrate 1/2" plywood at over 70yards!  (for outside combat use)

[gstewart44]

[size=78%] [/size]
He wrote "The Shogun in Combat,"

Most likely used a very sharp Katana

[Dee]

It has been my experience (and I have some), that gun magazine writers, and CUSTOM GUN SHOPS, made issues such as this one, FAR MORE COMPLICATED THAN NECESSARY. The facts are, the more you bolt on a shotgun, the more there is to hang on doorways, clothing, ect. A standard 870 Remington, or Mossberg 500 is all one needs.
When I taught civilian classes I always told them: As long as you know where your family is, STAY PUT. The gremlin is at the disadvantage. LET HIM, COME TO "YOU". Bumpin around in the house is a good way to walk into your own ambush.
Now there are other shotguns out there, and I am giving what I KNOW will work and have USED in real world application, and as I said, I PREFER "my own" 1100 Remington shotgun, but I built this gun up personally, and I KNOW it will work, because it has worked.
Everyone has to pick what they feel comfortable with, but taking your facts from magazine writers, and custom gun shops is gonna cost far more than necessary.
The hardest part of all of this, is pullin the trigger should an event actually happen. Trust me, it ain't as easy as it would seem, and I have seen "bad asses" that ended up not being. It's a hard thing to stand and fight when you realize you might not win. And I would caution everyone on the MYTH of "rackin the ole pump" will scare off the spook! IT WON'T! There are folks out there, for one reason, or the other, that this doesn't even slow down. Make sure your justified before you pull that shotgun. If he's already in your house, call the coroner's office. He should be sound asleep when they get there.

[gstewart44]

Thanks Dee!

[mcwoodduck]

Great input gentlemen-
 
Gonna buy the HD Combat shotgun from Lew Bonitz at Grizzly Custom.  Just waiting for the quan.  That will be an 870 designed to the job of a fightin shotgun, with component modifications to address performance and reliability issues (potential).
 
Then I'm gonna buy boxes of buckshot; have seen the testing results for pattern and penetration from a few websites.  Will shoot a few considered to be appropriate and choose what performs best.
 
Now....who can give me some good ideas on how to drill?  I don't have enough neighbors with pitbulls so I need another method 

I really do not think the hardware matters.  If you want a combat shotgun great.  I would suggest taking it to the range often.  I would buy a similar gun in a hunting configuration.  I would take up shooting Skeet or sporting clays.  Some game where you shoot multiple times and reload.  I have a couple pump guns and use them both for hunting and for HD.  I shoot a couple sporting clay shoots and a tactical shoot that often includes a scatter gun a year (I would like to d it a few times a month but the budget does not allow right now)
When ever I shoot sporting clays I think tactically and practice getting rounds out of my pouch and into the gun smoothly.  Often closing the gun sliding into the mag a couple shells and then cyceling the gun.
Shooting multiple times gets me used to fully stroking the gun and not having a hang up or short shuck and getting used to the recoil. 
Owning the best combat shotgun means nothing if you can not use it and are not familiar with the controls.  Owning a Ferrari would be great but if you can not drive a stick the Ferrari is kind of use less.
And sporting clays and or skeet are fun and you get to meet a few new people and have a few laughs.

[SHOOTALL]

I agree with Dee and hate add ons . There are some considerations that should be looked at. The main one is intended use. If the shotgun is only to be used in the confines of the home it might be an 18 inch cyl. or IC bead sighted  bbl is great. However if the gun doubles as an anti critter gun protecting domestic animals from  vermin or toothy criters  then a rifle sighted bbl with mod choke may be a better choice. I found with a 20 inch rifle sighted bbl with a screw in choke system added I could pattern different chokes and get real result for the bbl. I ended up with a mod choke as it was good with buck shot and slugs ( Foster Slugs) . As a side the gun can also accept a rifle tube (stright and twist) which add to its utility. I do like an extended magazine also. A light is a good thing but if installed on the shotgun it makes you point the gun at anyone you wish to light up . Not good when it is not someone you do not wish to shoot.

[Brett]

Good post as usual DEE.  The only statement which I deem questionable, at least for myself, is this..

"Trust me, it ain't as easy as it would seem, and I have seen "bad asses" that ended up not being. It's a hard thing to stand and fight when you realize you might not win."

I don't consider myself to be a 'bad ass' by any stretch. however the realization that I may not come out on top only drives the intensity of my response up.  I'm too slow to run away (and would not abandon my family anyway) and too old to go hand to hand any more so that just leaves me with one satisfactory option.  Someone enters my home uninvited they are going out perforated with lead and in a bag.

[Brett]

This thread is a little too serious so to lighten things up a little...
Some things in this world are stranger than fiction. Such was the case in a story from Independence, Oregon, where a 19-year-old on his way to visit family decided to stop for a rest -- and burglarize a farm. He stole several things, which he hid behind a barn before fleeing on foot. He then stole a pickup, also on the farm, returned to the house, and loaded up his spoils. Before leaving, he added a shotgun and an AR-15 to his take. While he drove across a field to make his escape, however, he hit a bump, causing a part of the shotgun caught in the trigger area of the AR-15 to shift and depress the trigger. The AR fired once, striking and killing the burglar. Early reports are that the shotgun had indeed failed a background check. Either way, someone should alert Joe Biden. Despite his sage advice, when this shotgun needed to defend itself, it went for the AR-15.

[Dee]

Good post as usual DEE.  The only statement which I deem questionable, at least for myself, is this..

"Trust me, it ain't as easy as it would seem, and I have seen "bad asses" that ended up not being. It's a hard thing to stand and fight when you realize you might not win."

I don't consider myself to be a 'bad ass' by any stretch. however the realization that I may not come out on top only drives the intensity of my response up.  I'm too slow to run away (and would not abandon my family anyway) and too old to go hand to hand any more so that just leaves me with one satisfactory option.  Someone enters my home uninvited they are going out perforated with lead and in a bag.

The point I apparently missed making is: don't think the presence of you and your shotgun will deter someone. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesnt. Plan ahead on the best way to defend your home and its occupants.

[FPH]

Just me and my wife now.  Our butts go in a corner of the bedroom behind a dresser.  I have insurance for material stuff.  They will have to come into my kill zone.

[dougk]

 
The point I apparently missed making is: don't think the presence of you and your shotgun will deter someone. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesnt. Plan ahead on the best way to defend your home and its occupants.

According to Vice President Biden at 37 seconds into the video clip, taking your 12 ga and shooting two rounds off your balcony, is all you need to deter someone. Buy a shotgun, buy a shotgun


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEsaXk6Sc3k[size=78%][/size]

[SHOOTALL]

well that will not work at my house , it's a rancher 

[mcwoodduck]

So last weekend I shot Sporting clays with some of my friends.  I was using a Benelli Nova.  At one station the window to shoot the pair of birds was only 20' and i needed to hit both in that distance with the pump gun.  After we shot , this being the last station some of hte guys were Master Class Sporting clays shooters and I handed them the pump gun.  All of them shoot over and unders regularly.  So the birds flew and the first round went off, and most of them flubbed the pump and wer never able ot hit the second bird.  All of them were grabbing the pump and saying throw it one more time.
My point being you need to use what ever you have for HD on a semi regular basis so you can make it work when it counts. 

[Oldshooter]

Good post Dee! Great story Brett! Good advice mcduck.
 
I have all sorts of weapons for home defense but I will inevitably grab the pump shotgun I keep with loaded #1 buck  and slugs if I have time to make that decision.