Author Topic: Combat Shotgun for HD - This Forum? (Read 4592 times)

SingleFan · « **on:** January 16, 2013, 08:07:13 AM »

Not sure if this one is restricted to handguns, but am looking for some input on combat shotguns.

With all the AR's flying off the shelf and given the fact that I've never been wild about them, in conjunction with the fact that I think in CQC a shotgun is the most formidable weapon, I've been considering buying a 'fightin' shotgun.

Been looking at having Grizzly Custom make one of their 870's in the tactical package. What Recommendations and sage advice do any of you more experienced hombres have out there? Any experience with Grizzly custom? Whose gun if not their's do you like and why?

cudatruck · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2013, 12:41:52 PM »

i strongly recommend the mossberg 500. not the 590, just the plain jane (read cheaper) 500 model. less than 300 at big5 with two barrels. take the plug out put 5 in the tube and one in the chamber. use the 18" barrel. get low recoil 2 3/4" buckshot, NOT BIRDSHOT, with these shells and barrel should put all the pellets in a 4 inch circle at 30 feet. the 500 has two advantages over the 870. the position of the safety and more important the way the shell lifter works is less likely to jam. you can get better barrel and better sights for the mossberg and still not spend the price of a rem 870 or moss 590. Granted, just my opinion, but it is based on testing done by me with all of the above. Do not listen to anything anyone says after they tell u to use birdshot. do yourself a favor and spend the time doing some penetration testing. it is very revealing. Stay armed and stay safe. Mike.

RevJim · « **Reply #2 on:** January 17, 2013, 05:07:30 AM »

I agree, a HD shotgun should be kept simple. That way, even your wife/child could pick it up, rack it and go to town. Now, a dedicated Tactical shotgun can be very useful as a Trunk Gun, able to use slugs to hit at extended ranges. Some use a rifle for the Trunk Gun. But even a simple Mossberg with a slug barrel can fill that order too. I also agree with the use of buckshot and or slugs in an HD shotgun. Don't get me wrong, birdshot beats rock salt, but even birdshot can go through sheetrock in a house. The idea is not to shoot someone a "little bit", but to shoot him well enough to insure he "stops" what he is doing. It won't make any difference to a DA what you had in it at the time, but only if you "were in fear for your life....and trust me, if someone is in your house, you better be Very Afraid for your life! Times are not what they used to be...good luck to you and may you never, ever have to use it!...but if you do, do it well.

Dee · « **Reply #3 on:** January 17, 2013, 05:52:05 AM »

Well there is some pretty good advice so far, and some "not so good" opinion here. I will agree with some of it, and disagree with some of it, but I will speak from FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE both professionally, and in the field having INVESTIGATED, AND VIEWED RESULTS of the shotgun, not only in SELF DEFENSE, but OFFENSE. LEGALLY AND OTHER WISE, over a 20 year career.
As a L.E. weapons instructor for 18 years, several years a SWAT team leader, and instructor, I have used, and seen used the shotgun. I used to teach a course called SHOTGUN STRESS, which dealt with the many different methods a shotgun could be used in a fight. AND there are many.
Weapon: Both the Mossberg 500, and the Remington 870 are excellent choices, with my PERSONAL choice being the 870. I personally use a modified Remington 1100. No lights, no picatinny mounts on the forearm, but a strip down pump shotgun, with a corncob forearm. KISS!
Loads: I do not recommend anything OVER 2 3/4" shells, as a short pump, and yes, even in an auto loader, may cause a hull NOT to clear the ejection port. In buck shot I recommend 2 3/4" MAGNUM in #4 "buckshot" for anything "outside" the house. A 2 3/4" mag load of 00 buckshot has 9 pellets. I have seen a large dog (pitbull) more than once, at fairly close range run thru a pattern of 00 with out a scratch. #4 buckshot in the same load I believe is 27 pellets. I am going by memory here.
If a DEFENDER has family INSIDE THE HOUSE, he or she does not want to shoot them, and here is where I will no doubt get resistance. Let me say, I do not care, I have WORKED ACTUAL SHOOTINGS, I AM NOT GUESSING, OR GIVING AN OPINION.
Inside the house 7 1/2 low base BIRDSHOT, is more than enough. It spreads very little at room distances, doesn't reliably penetrate both wall surfaces, and is less dangerous to FAMILY MEMBERS IN OTHER ROOMS. If you have family in the house, YOU SHOULD NEVER SHOOT THRU WALLS INTENTIONALLY, AS YOU CANNOT KNOW WHOM YOUR SHOOTING AT.
98% of all NON POLICE shootings I worked with a shotgun involved, were done with BIRDSHOT. 100% of ALL INSIDE RESIDENCE shots with these shotguns were FATAL, if the shot was center mass FATAL AT THE SCENE.
I once had an emergency room doctor tell me that he wished they would outlaw folks from shooting each other with BIRDSHOT. I asked why, and he said: I can't fix HAMBURGER.
Now! With that said, I know that at least one here will disagree, and as I said, I don't care. I have actually "BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT".
It isn't required that anyone take my word for anything I said, I gave good advice based on a lot of experience and training, and I have no intention of debating it.
Hope I helped,
Dan, aka Dee

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #4 on:** January 17, 2013, 06:34:47 AM »

Good advice , would add that consideration as to who may be called upon to use the gun should you be out of the area or out of service. That person may be called on to defend the home or protect you if injured. That is why remington makes a 20 ga police magnun I think. There are police officers that the 20 might fit better. Also it could just be a choice of loads that might be the best route to take . There are reduced recoil 12 ga loads for police work and personal protection. When the reduced loads are fired in the 12 they often kick less than a light 20 with magnum loads.
Dee offered good points about the number of pellets in both 00 and #4 . Shot gun news had an article by a policeman with regard to a new round Federal was producing and placing on the market. It was a reduced recoil load of #1 plated buckshot. It listed the test it had been thru. What was noted was that #1 preforms better than 00 and more pellets are in the shell. If that intrest anyone they should be able to google it.
Another thing is a sling they can get in the way . They can be helpful. So if you use one get one that comes off in a hurry for when it needs to not get in the way.
two things that I find helpful are either a larger white or silver bead front sight or a strip of white tape wrapped around the muzzle end of the barrel. Either will help the shooter keep the muzzle direction under control in low light conditions.

RevJim · « **Reply #5 on:** January 17, 2013, 06:35:36 AM »

That's good advice Dee. I will take your word for it on the birdshot as I have seen zero, zip humans shot with it. ha. I too like the 870, except mine is the old Wingmaster Magnum, 3". I had a bunch of 3" ammo and I wanted to keep it all simple. However, I keep it loaded with 2 3/4 and the bandoleer has 2 3/4 in it too, just for the reason you said, short shucking. I put a Mossberg made 18" HD barrel on mine. It surprisingly shoots slugs to point of bead aim out to 25yds or more. Thanks again for the real life report...I'm glad I've never had to walk up to a scene like those. All said though, a shotgun is one awesome weapon, and the blast has to help scare any other bad guys in the house or outside! Shock & Awe, ha.

SingleFan · « **Reply #6 on:** January 17, 2013, 08:10:54 AM »

I appreciate everyone's input. DEE - especially the real world experience; that's what I care about in this case.

I have read extensively on this topic and can tell the difference in corroborating experience vs someone else who has just 'read' about it - like me.

Also - the finer point input like use of 2 3/4 and avoiding the sling are helpful. Keep 'em coming guys. Great input.

cudatruck · « **Reply #7 on:** January 17, 2013, 10:09:40 AM »

Dee, i'm just being a smart-a$$, but where did you find an 1100 Rem "pump"? no arguement, u just must have stronger sheet rock where u are. in our testing bird shot most certainly penetrates two pieces of 1/2 in think sheetrock with a 3 1/2 inch air gap when fired from any distance less than 5 feet. most will penetrate even at 10 feet. so our conclusion is bird shot is NOT safe indoors! therefore use more reliable ammo. #4 buck is getting a lot of press right now. i have not done much testing with it. #1 is also recomended. #3 gets the nod from the "experts" for the 20 ga. Again, I have not done enough testing to verify. 00 buck in a the 2 3/4 variety loaded to reduced recoil levels penetrates 3 milk jugs of water and stops in the 4th. it also will penetrate 16 inches of live goat. This test i repeated three times. I recomend each person do their own testing to find what is right for their defense. By the way Dee I really hope i don't ever have to go where you have been.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #8 on:** January 17, 2013, 10:15:12 AM »

there is a site that shows test on shooting bird shot vs buckshot , In The Box , google it.

cudatruck · « **Reply #9 on:** January 17, 2013, 10:25:25 AM »

sorry to hi jack your thread for the old debate about ammunition. I gave you my recomendation for a reliable gun that WILL do the job right out of the box. can be upgraded later. remingtons 870 does have a design flaw in the shell lifter, not a problem in a hunting gun. Need proof? do what i did buy a couple of both and put several hundred rounds through each and find for yourself what works and what doesn't. There is no easy way or short cut. What ever gun you decide, you need to shoot it alot anyway! one box of shell every other year is not what i mean, i'm saying more like all your shoulder can stand at least once a month. find a place to shoot that you can do some penetration testing of your own. it is very valuable time spent. internet "research" is good to get an idea... but you need to prove it before you need to use it for real.
Practice, practice practice, and then practice some more.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #10 on:** January 17, 2013, 10:36:33 AM »

I have to disagree about the 870 with the flex tab lifter there is no problem , you would need to shoot way more than a few 100 rounds mine has more than a few thousand or more thru. ( most high brass duck , goose and buckshot loads ) it with out a hickup. It has been under water , filled with mud and grit several times and cleaned with a pressure washer .
The mossberg is a nice gun and the 590 in particular but not as blanced or smooth as the 870. IMHO. I have both moss. and rem so I really do know .

Dee · « **Reply #11 on:** January 17, 2013, 10:48:19 AM »

Quote from: cudatruck on January 17, 2013, 10:09:40 AM

Dee, i'm just being a smart-a$$, but where did you find an 1100 Rem "pump"? no arguement,

If you will go back and read my post you will notice I said my personal "choice" in pumps was the Remington 870, but that I personally "use" a modified Remington 1100.

u just must have stronger sheet rock where u are. in our testing bird shot most certainly penetrates two pieces of 1/2 in think sheetrock with a 3 1/2 inch air gap when fired from any distance less than 5 feet. most will penetrate even at 10 feet. so our conclusion is bird shot is NOT safe indoors! therefore use more reliable ammo.

Once again, you need read my post again. I said it will not "RELIABLEY" penetrate both wall surfaces. From 5 feet away the WADDING will penetrate at least one side of the wall. I don't think ANY ammo is safe in doors, and didn't say that it was, I said if one MUST defend the interior, you have a better chance of less collateral damage to family members with bird-shot, I said DO NOT shoot thru walls intentionally because you can't see whose on the other side.

#4 buck is getting a lot of press right now. i have not done much testing with it. #1 is also recomended. #3 gets the nod from the "experts" for the 20 ga. Again, I have not done enough testing to verify.

I laugh at the gun rag boys, when I hear this. I was USING #1, #3, and #4, on the street and in training classes, in the late 70s thru the 90s while most of them were in Journalism school, so I guess you could say I was "testing it". I used my modified Remington 1100 as a PRIMARY entry weapon loaded with 8 rounds of #4 magnum buckshot. I am fully aware with exactly what it will do to all sorts of door material, and wall material. It works pretty good on folks also.

00 buck in a the 2 3/4 variety loaded to reduced recoil levels penetrates 3 milk jugs of water and stops in the 4th. it also will penetrate 16 inches of live goat. This test i repeated three times. I recomend each person do their own testing to find what is right for their defense. By the way Dee I really hope i don't ever have to go where you have been.

I have never used reduced recoil loads ever. I wanted, and want, all the power I can get in a fight, and from experience, you will not notice recoil, or muzzle blast in a fight. I have never shot milk jugs filled with water with a shotgun. I have used them for years however, with counter sniper rifles beyond 300 yards, out to about 650 yards. And occasionally I will use them at 300 yards with my 54 year old Model 94 Winchester 3030 to stay in practice with it. I don't stand them up however, I lay them on their sides with the bottom facing me for a nice 6" square target. I am by the way retired now, so my "wild old days are over". The closest thing I've had to a fight in the last 19 years is a neighbors arrogant pitbull, but I tranquilized him with a Model 60 Smith in 357 mag. Thought I was gonna have to put the owner down for a while.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #12 on:** January 17, 2013, 11:01:39 AM »

Dee the #1 I mentioned was made spefic for police and police testing is proving its worth. The reduced loads are loads that are somewhat new they carry one less pellet and in some cases the velosity is faster than full power loads. Not a bad thing .
Now I haven't been in a gun fight where I had to shoot my having a gun and willingness to use it stopped the problem for which I am thankful. I have been shot at several times though didn't like it .Have been hit on the range several times also didn't care for that either. I have killed enough deer with buckshot to understand its limits and usefulness though. That said I tend to agree with what you said.

Dee · « **Reply #13 on:** January 17, 2013, 12:19:29 PM »

Well SHOOTALL, I have never killed a deer, OR a man with buckshot. I have seen more men killed with a shotgun than I care to think about, and have never actually seen a deer killed with buckshot.
I've killed a lot of deer, but with the rifle. I am very happy that the three gentlemen I was involved with back in the late 70s all recovered. I have no idea if they changed their ways after jail, but I watch my back trail anyway, as their not the only folks that don't send me Christimas cards.

fatercat · « **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2013, 12:31:05 PM »

find youself a old winchester model 12--cut it to 18 1/2". then you have the best shotgun everbuilt. period. the end. forever. don't waste your time telling me i am wronge.

Dee · « **Reply #15 on:** January 17, 2013, 12:34:23 PM »

Quote from: fatercat on January 17, 2013, 12:31:05 PM

find youself a old winchester model 12--cut it to 18 1/2". then you have the best shotgun everbuilt. period. the end. forever. don't waste your time telling me i am wronge.

YOUR WRONG! I would love to have an old Model 97 Winchester "trench gun". I had a chance at one years ago, and didn't have the money. It was cheap back then, but I was broke.

fatercat · « **Reply #16 on:** January 17, 2013, 12:48:13 PM »

old man Dee, i know you ain't broke now.. so, go buy youself both of them.

Dee · « **Reply #17 on:** January 17, 2013, 01:17:08 PM »

I would like to have that Model 97 but I figure it would be hard to come by and expensive now. Besides. What would I do with it?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** January 18, 2013, 01:58:33 AM »

Quote from: Dee on January 17, 2013, 12:19:29 PM

Well SHOOTALL, I have never killed a deer, OR a man with buckshot. I have seen more men killed with a shotgun than I care to think about, and have never actually seen a deer killed with buckshot.
I've killed a lot of deer, but with the rifle. I am very happy that the three gentlemen I was involved with back in the late 70s all recovered. I have no idea if they changed their ways after jail, but I watch my back trail anyway, as their not the only folks that don't send me Christimas cards.

I have only seen one guy who was shot with a shotgun , passed by after he was killed he won't be sending any cards. As for deer I have seen them killed with everything form .410 to 10 ga. slugs to 000 buck.
It's funny every hunter has his own favorite load.

williamlayton · « **Reply #19 on:** January 18, 2013, 11:38:44 PM »

Most overlooked shotgun for home defense is a .410 pump and it is lighter and easier for a woman.
Blessings

cudatruck · « **Reply #20 on:** January 19, 2013, 04:30:56 AM »

IF a .410 is all a person can handle well then that is what they should use. My 67 year old mother uses a 12 gauge very well. Each person needs to find what works for them. The OP asked which gun, and we have posted about all kinds of other stuff. I am probably guilty of starting this. I am sorry. I stand by my original statement. I would buy the Mossberg 500 without any reservations. That said, the 870 is a good gun, just not my first choice.

Dee · « **Reply #21 on:** January 19, 2013, 04:58:17 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on January 17, 2013, 10:36:33 AM

I have to disagree about the 870 with the flex tab lifter there is no problem , you would need to shoot way more than a few 100 rounds mine has more than a few thousand or more thru. ( most high brass duck , goose and buckshot loads ) it with out a hickup. It has been under water , filled with mud and grit several times and cleaned with a pressure washer .
The mossberg is a nice gun and the 590 in particular but not as blanced or smooth as the 870. IMHO. I have both moss. and rem so I really do know .

I would have to agree with SHOOTALL here. I have ran thousands of rounds thru both models in training, and seen others do the same with both models. I'm talkin about entry drills, where the barrel is kept too hot to touch for 20 to 30 minutes at a time on these drills. They were dropped, banged, and shot until nasty. Many times just oiled on a break, and shot again. I have not seen a problem with the 870 shell elevator. I HAVE seen "short shucking" problems with both on speed drills, and shooter fatigue, but that is a "shooter issue".
While I endorse the Mossberg 500, I have heard complaints about the recoil, which is due to the fact that the receiver on the Mossberg is aluminum, while the Remington 870 is steel, and it is a weight issue.

Brett · « **Reply #22 on:** January 19, 2013, 05:43:27 AM »

I think that the main point here is that you don't need all the gadgets, bells and whistles dispite what the gun rags tell you. A basic 12ga pump (your choice of Mossberg 500 or Rem 870) with an 18.5" - 20" barrel is all that is required. If you can't handle the 12ga due to stature or a bum shoulder you could drop down to a 20ga or even .410 if you must. When the adrenalin is pumpin' you probably won't even notice the boom let alone feel the kick.

There are several other makers of basic to pimped out pumps on the market but it's hard to argue with the proven reliability of either the Mossy or Rem versions.

As far as ammo goes I will take DEE's real world experience over the pulp fiction... I mean gun rag writer's advice.

m-g Willy · « **Reply #23 on:** January 20, 2013, 05:13:44 PM »

You can't go to far wrong with either the mossberg 500 or the 870 in 12ga.
But you can be way off when picking your loads!
While birdshot will put a person down if you are close enough, so will just the wad if you are (close enough)
Might be why they call it "birdshot"
For an idea of how far you can shoot with a how much of a spread of a pattern you will get check the shotgun section for my tests of chokes and distance with 00 buckshot.
Most people are surprised at how tight open choked shotgun patterns are at 20' or less.
And as for shot size???
--- 00 BUCK!! ---
You want penetration on your target!
You don't reccomend a 22 pistol for home defence because it's to small.
So you go with a 45 .
Same with shotguns.
You shoot your target ,,,not the walls!

FPH · « **Reply #24 on:** January 20, 2013, 05:37:47 PM »

I do not personally like the Mossberg. I would recommend the 1100, or a Benelli.

jeffcneal · « **Reply #25 on:** January 28, 2013, 12:27:46 PM »

Have'nt been been following this thread, so I hope I don't offend anyone with my opinions. They are however based on staking my life on a shotgun 40+ hours a week for my whole adult life. So at the risk of stepping on someones toes, here's my thoughts on what makes a good defensive shotgun:

*Mossberg 500 Persuader 6-shot #50411. The 8-shot has a 20" barrel and has a magazine tube that ends flush with the muzzle. While the 18.5" gun gives up 2 rounds, losing 1.5"s can make alot of difference when manuevering in tight confines. Also, the shorter magazine tube can allow you to place the muzzle into a firing port if necessary [...sorry, I spent some time in armored cars...]. Make sure you get 1 with the forend tube/action bar/castle nut assembly, this will allow you options as far as forends go.

*Add an Outdoor Connection take-down screw/q.d. stud as it's rotation will allow more flexability and the stud supplied with the gun NEVER lines up. A simple sling like the O.C. Express and q.d. swivels is sufficient. A sling may not be required for HD, but you might have to sling your weapon while you've got both arms full of sleeping kids carrying them to the car if you've got to evacuate your family.

*A simple 5 round capacity elastic butt cuff will hold spare ammo and not break the bank doing it. Also, you don't have to find 1 or more allen wrenches to remove it for cleaning.

*Consider a replacement forend with a built in piccatinny for mounting a weapon light. I think the model designation for the 1 made by Mako is "PR-MO". And a light can avoid tragedy, get a good 1, a Streamlight, Sure-Fire, etc.

*Ammo: birdshot and game loads are for hunting. Quality 2.75" low-recoil buckshot in #4 to "OO" is suitable for HD. It's just that simple.

I like the model 500 for all the same reasons as everyone else, but here's a couple more: if an 870's ejector breaks or magazine tube gets damaged, it means a trip to the gunsmith. On a 500, you get the parts, apply elbow grease, and you're back in business. The only downside to a 500 is reassembly after cleaning, you need about 3 hand with 7 fingers each. And all your buddies saying "...you should'a got a Remington..."

regards,
Jeff

dougk · « **Reply #26 on:** January 29, 2013, 03:18:12 PM »

Thanks Jeff,

that i a very informative post.

Doug

SingleFan · « **Reply #27 on:** February 01, 2013, 07:42:36 AM »

Great input gentlemen-

Gonna buy the HD Combat shotgun from Lew Bonitz at Grizzly Custom. Just waiting for the quan. That will be an 870 designed to the job of a fightin shotgun, with component modifications to address performance and reliability issues (potential).

Then I'm gonna buy boxes of buckshot; have seen the testing results for pattern and penetration from a few websites. Will shoot a few considered to be appropriate and choose what performs best.

Now....who can give me some good ideas on how to drill? I don't have enough neighbors with pitbulls so I need another method

dougk · « **Reply #28 on:** February 03, 2013, 03:41:06 AM »

When you research the buck shot you should look at no. 4 buck.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #29 on:** February 04, 2013, 02:02:50 AM »

FWIW , as a kid I took a shot at a line of deer going across a field . Shot at the first in line and killed the forth one . It was 104 steps . 00 buck one pellet thru. the head ( yes a stupid stunt ). I have a gun now set up to shoot 000 buck , Federal Gold . I have killed several deer over 60 yards with it at that distance I get 3-4 hits per shot . I have killed several deer at 40 yards with #4 ( here we can shoot turkeys in the fall while deer hunting so common pratice is a #4 in the chamber followed by larger buck) past that I always need another shot with larget buck to finish. I think #4 is running out of steam by then. Up close it's great though. At 15 yards #6 shot will kill a deer . So when selecting buck shot the max range is the most critical factor. Also temp. plays a role as colder temp reduces power .