Why liberals use this site

[KIMBER45]

Fplk, I am far from a conspiracy nut case, but Kimber asked a question that deserves some discussion.
He asked, is this why liberals use this site.
Folks seek out information to use as defense or offense of their cause or thought.
I suspect that this site has been brought to the attention of BB. Now, i don't really care and I say what it is I think needs to be said-----buttttt-----c'mon Kimber.
Blessings

  ?

[KIMBER45]

And I have the right to once again request that everyone please make an effort to stay on the OP topic. Thank you.
GuzziJohn

Recently I am questioning why I use this particular site. It seems it has once again gone nasty. Don't know if winter or the shorter day's have anything to do with it . But simple questions have turned into bickering. I'm going goose hunting to get a breath of fresh air. Good luck with your request/

[SHOOTALL]

Sorry , no bitterness intended . Guess some want to make a statement and nither support it or define it.

[SHOOTALL]

I would add that some seem liberal on one issue and right wing on another . Myself I think abortion is wrong and pot should be legal . Even worst I hunt deer with dogs and often shoot them with a shotgun while they are running . Some will call me the scumb of the hunting earth. If they want good debate on either bring it on.
 We never really know who or what we are communicating with on line . It could be a real man with real ideas or it could be a guy in womens underware being a troll. So why let it get you upset ? Why give a hoot ? Why let some thing online control you ?

[BUGEYE]

I would add that some seem liberal on one issue and right wing on another . Myself I think abortion is wrong and pot should be legal . Even worst I hunt deer with dogs and often shoot them with a shotgun while they are running . Some will call me the scumb of the hunting earth. If they want good debate on either bring it on.
 We never really know who or what we are communicating with on line . It could be a real man with real ideas or it could be a guy in womens underware being a troll. So why let it get you upset ? Why give a hoot ? Why let some thing online control you ?

As long as a way of hunting is legal, we should stand behind it.  if we don't agree, the liberals will use the split to try and further their agenda.
If I were to deer hunt again, I would choose a dog hunting club so I'd have a bunch of guys to drag my deer.
You and I disagree about pot, but that doesn't make you a flaming liberal like some here, so I'll always respect your posting.
Now you've made me want to go hunting.

[ousooners1baby]

liberals can't see the whole picture . They can't see how 2nd amnd. has anything to do with their freedom .

Yes , we can. But we can make consolations. Example _ I see no reason why everyone getting a gun can not have a background check done. I do not see that as a violation of the 2nd Amendment. Now if you want to come and take the guns I used to have until, a certain poster here came and stole them . Yes, I have a major problem with that.

YOUR president even wants private transactions checked.  If I sell my brother a gun, he would have to prove to me that he can legally own one.  How would he do that?  YOUR president is doing everything in his power to bypass the constitution and rob us of our freedoms.
In his first term he dumped Obama care on us and now he's disarming us.
Can you say a cross between Stalin and Hitler would=Obama.

I have no problem with that. Your brother may be a certified nut case , or felon who can't get a gun by any other means . { hypothetical - no insult intended.} We often blame parents for not keeping guns away from children, yet I can sell a gun to a nut case or felon with out having a background check. I again see no problem with EVERYONE needing a background check.

I have a friend with this type of thinking.  "He is responsible for me and I am responsible for him.  If you sell to me and I go out and kill someone you should be charged with a crime."  This is ludicrous and in no way should I be in control or responsible for anothers actions.  There is no way to know if that person is about to snap, so to speak.  He could never had have any psychological problems up to this point and drive off a cliff.  If you sell a car to a unknown alcoholic and they go out and commit manslaughter do you think you should be charged?  Please, tell me no!

[ChungDoQuan]

Not the same at all, unless you're comparing the drunk driver to an accidental shooting. What I'm saying is you can't compare selling a gun to someone who murders kids to a fool who passes out at the wheel and kills a family. One is intentional. I wouldn't forgive the drunk either, but he probably did not get in the car intending to kill. (Actually, I'd personally consider a fool who screws around and kills someone to be a lower life form--- how can you accidentally kill someone?)

Which brings us back to the OP. (I'm trying, John!) I like to hear other, logical opinions. Part of being "liberal minded" is the ability to change my mind--- with enough facts. I DO reserve the right to discount the nut cases.

[SHOOTALL]

CDQ , I would disagree since most if not all the shooters of late were on mind altering drugs as reported . So could the shooting really be intentional ? I don't believe the selling of guns to people is as open as many think. Theses shooters often look and act normal . Well until under the influnce of drugs.
 That said back to the op , I think liberals often use this site as a trolling area because they will be tolerated .

[guzzijohn]

Quote from shootall:
"That said back to the op , I think liberals often use this site as a trolling area because they will be tolerated ."


Just asking, is disagreeing trolling? I am not referring to you but a few here seem to act like I broke into their private little club by becoming active on this board and are quite offended by that. How dull would this forum be without a few of us "outsiders"? At least my firearms and fishing poles don't give a crap about my political standings. I attend several Moto Guzzi rallies off and on and you know we even tolerate Hondas and Harleys at our rallies and are richer for it.
GuzziJohn

[SHOOTALL]

Well no disagreeing is good if both sides have good basis for their view. And even just admitting it is your stand is just what you want to believe is good enough. But when someone on either side makes a silly statement then attacks those who challenge it by making personal remarks that don't define their position they must have been trolling.
 As for me I don't have a problem with liberals being here or posting here . Take this in the right sense please , if liberals don't ever interact with more right leaning posters how will they ever experince the education they get here free 
 And yes I know the liberals can say the same about me. 
But at least we are better than congress and the president , we are still talking and learning.

[guzzijohn]

I will say one thing for sure since I started on this site, I am MUCH MORE politically aware and take it much more seriously now. I think that is a good thing. It is too bad but we have to remember that it seems like 95%+ of our legislators are politicians first and a liberal or conservative second. At times I can just imagine that during the day these politicians fight, bluster, threat and scowl at each other and after five they get together for drinks and joke around what fools the rest of us are.
GuzziJohn

[BBF]

Now this discussion is going on very nicely. There are difference of opinions, but everyone is civil.    I just wonder how long it will continue?

I was amazed at the civility here several posts back myself, so it can be done here .
 
Let's see by whom or when it deteriorates.
 
 
POST SCRIPT     Oh well........................

[ironglow]

I like this site. For almost any question you can have about guns, shooting or outdoors in general, this is where you get the answers. Mostly I READ this site for information.agreed As far as the politics, my views just do not jive with most people on the site. That does not distress me, though it seems to be a hard thing for some to get their head around. Not really, we have to deal with liberals every day I just think the biggest threat to our country is corporate greed, rather than a stronger government.  Any corporation can only dominate SOME of the people, and then usually only if they choose to be dominated..An all-powerful government can persecute ALL the people if it chooses..re North Korea, USSR, Nazi Germany etc. Most of the criticisms I hear about the inefficiencies in government could be remedied by making it a little stronger.  People foolishly chose to allow "stronger governments" in  Pre WW2 Japan, Cuba, Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia & North korea..what has been the result?I do have a problem with Obama--- he's not liberal enough nor is he strong enough for me. He IS pretty sharp about manipulating (read dishonest in dealings..liar) his opponents into positions where they'll take the flack when things go wrong, though--- not from the hard core rightys, but from the general population.

I support this SOCIETY. Not the far right, not the far left, the whole thing. If that makes y'all call me a "socialist" then I'm proud of it. I do own some two dozen guns; I like to shoot. For me, that's not a conflict. I also know that there are people who should not be allowed near a gun. It would be very simple to require all guns sold to be equipped with programable palm print readers, or have an electronic key activator, so they simply will not work except for the owner. That can add unnecessary costs, lower the firearm dependability and be an infringement on our gun owning tradition.I'm surprised that the industry has not applied some sort of technology to firearms yet. Until that day comes, we will continue to have incidents like the school shooting or the theatre shooting. And, like it or not, gunowners should be demanding such technology, because, not doing so pretty well ensures that eventually they will lose at least some of those gun rights. We won't lose them if we ALL stand for the constitution.Unless WE fix it, THEY will fix it, and WE won't like THEIR fix.  ..And you want a STRONGER government?

[ironglow]

BUGEYE posted this on another thread and I thought it might deserve some discussion:
"It's sure easy to spot the liberals.   I wonder why they're at a website where people own guns and like to hunt and fish?"


I will start with myself which I am quite sure 99.9% here consider me a liberal. I live in the country and love it. I grew up a farm/ranch kid. I use to hunt much more than I do now but I love to shoot and I reload. I very much enjoy fishing when I have the time. On my property I have two ponds and a 36 acre watershed lake (was 36 acres before the drought). I first found this site by searching for help with my Handi .243. I then discovered that this is one of the most active and comprehensive sites out there for information on firearms and outdoor hobbies/life. Then one day I made the mistake of looking into the "Pot Belly Stove" section (I think that was when politics were still under this area). It was like a newspaper "opinion line" but I could immediately respond back and I was hooked for better or for worse. If one never strays out of their comfort zone as in me staying active here how does one ever expand their learning and interests. Oh! I forgot there are some people that are very scared to go out of there comfort zone. Maybe some here need to find some liberal sites and start to stir things up there a bit.
GuzziJohn

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   Jeepers Guzzi;
   You had a great start!  Just where did you get led astray? ......just teasing..

[mcwoodduck]

And yet you spend so much time and effort picking apart posts you disagree with...   

When you see someone spouting off foolishness you need to say something. 
Ok lets take your premis and only you can shoot your guns, How do you shoot my guns if I take you shooting, How do you pass down the guns to your kids when they become old enough to shoot or after you die?  Would there me a device that can then change the palm print to your kids?  If there is a machine that can do that then what would stop the bad guys from stealing one of those machines to transfer the guns to them after they steal the guns? 
While the simple answer based on emotion has many long term concerns.
At what point would a palm signature gun stop the Va Tech attack, the mentally ill kid hadthe guns legally.  So if he was tackeld and dropped one of the guns no one could use it against him.  Clearly the No guns with in 1,000 feet of a school stopped him.  What do you want to do with all the hammers and base ball bats that are used in more murders than firearms?
If I want to do harm to someone and a walk down the street with a gun the Police will be called.  If I walk down the street with a base ball bat with a bow on it no one will bat an eye and only remember the color of the bow on the bat.  Do we outlaw baseball?  Lock up all bats and only allow them out with a two key system like nuke weapons?
What if we instead of passing a gun law we pass a media law that they are not allowed to print or say the names of the people that cause these horrific acts.  It seems that they get famous because of it.  What if we just called them Pathetic looser #1 of 2013 instead and the court records can then contain their real name so we do not have copy cat people looking to become famous.  Or is that against the 1st amendment and then why is limiting me a legal peron OK to limit my 1st and 2nd amendment with gun control laws?
 

[ChungDoQuan]

Sort of reaching with those examples, aren't we? Nothing, no system, is perfect, but it can be better. A palm reader can be programmed for all members of your family, for instance. Bad guys usually go for cheap guns, either stolen or other throwaways. I'd doubt they'd go to the expense of getting a programmer. My suggestions would probably not solve all the problems with armed criminals, true, but something like that could improve the situation. Again, I have to point out that I do not think the OP was intended to start a debate on whether or not I can justify, to the rightys at any rate, my use of this site. I believe it was more a question of why I would put up with the garbage the extremists spew my way in order to use this site. I explained that. I don't care what anyone's opinion of those reasons are; that argument is for other times, other places.

[mcwoodduck]

Not reaching on the examples I am just pointing out two that used the power of the free market to change their ways, kept jobs or wildlife and products.  DU with a bunch of conservitives that saw the draining of the wetlands in Canada as a bad thing for water fowel and used their combined $ to buy farms in Canada and keep the land wet for the nesting of ducks.  This has lead to Millions of $ a year in sales of hunting license, Duck Stamps, Decoys, calls, shotguns, shells and I can go on and on with expansion of the markets because some one took action.  You can not show one EPA regulation that saved a public job.
And if you want to really strech I guess you could say that since Nixon started the EPA and he was a republican that the Regulations are the result of republicans and that is what is driving manufacturing out of the country.  But you want to talk about a reach that is it.
Now I do not care if you are a liberal, I just want you to think through the ideas you have mandated by the government and the huge pit falls.
Oh your wrong criminals do nto want cheap guns, they want the best quality guns.  If you were a criminal, just like the police you are betting your life on the firearm.  Most criminals prey on the poor in their neighborhoods and they are the ones with the cheap guns.  But if a criminal had a choice to grab a Sig or a Davis they will take the Sig every time.   If you think a criminal or a dirty person will not take a gun programmer and sell the reprogramming of the stolen guns.   

[BUGEYE]

And yet you spend so much time and effort picking apart posts you disagree with...   

When you see someone spouting off foolishness you need to say something. 
Ok lets take your premis and only you can shoot your guns, How do you shoot my guns if I take you shooting, How do you pass down the guns to your kids when they become old enough to shoot or after you die?  Would there me a device that can then change the palm print to your kids?  If there is a machine that can do that then what would stop the bad guys from stealing one of those machines to transfer the guns to them after they steal the guns? 
While the simple answer based on emotion has many long term concerns.
At what point would a palm signature gun stop the Va Tech attack, the mentally ill kid hadthe guns legally.  So if he was tackeld and dropped one of the guns no one could use it against him.  Clearly the No guns with in 1,000 feet of a school stopped him.  What do you want to do with all the hammers and base ball bats that are used in more murders than firearms?
If I want to do harm to someone and a walk down the street with a gun the Police will be called.  If I walk down the street with a base ball bat with a bow on it no one will bat an eye and only remember the color of the bow on the bat.  Do we outlaw baseball?  Lock up all bats and only allow them out with a two key system like nuke weapons?
What if we instead of passing a gun law we pass a media law that they are not allowed to print or say the names of the people that cause these horrific acts.  It seems that they get famous because of it.  What if we just called them Pathetic looser #1 of 2013 instead and the court records can then contain their real name so we do not have copy cat people looking to become famous.  Or is that against the 1st amendment and then why is limiting me a legal peron OK to limit my 1st and 2nd amendment with gun control laws?

It's no big deal anymore to get a skimmer and read all the info on your credit card.
So it's not a great stretch to say that a gun skimmer with the ability to change the codes would show up pretty quick.   There's people out there who love to beat any system and then sell the results.
If we bend on this attack on the 2nd amendment, it will give the liberals incentive to take more of our freedoms.  After all, that is their agenda.

[Victor3]

Sort of reaching with those examples, aren't we? Nothing, no system, is perfect, but it can be better. A palm reader can be programmed for all members of your family, for instance. Bad guys usually go for cheap guns, either stolen or other throwaways. I'd doubt they'd go to the expense of getting a programmer. My suggestions would probably not solve all the problems with armed criminals, true, but something like that could improve the situation. Again, I have to point out that I do not think the OP was intended to start a debate on whether or not I can justify, to the rightys at any rate, my use of this site. I believe it was more a question of why I would put up with the garbage the extremists spew my way in order to use this site. I explained that. I don't care what anyone's opinion of those reasons are; that argument is for other times, other places.

 "Sort of reaching?" Please explain why you feel that this technology "can" be used for a handgun. 


 The gun would have to at least contain the palm reader, a computer to analyse data from the reader, battery and some electro-mechanical device (solenoid?) to lock/unlock the trigger. A clunky, complicated, expensive affair to say the least.


 Your palm would have to be clean and oriented to the sensor the same way each time you picked it up, and you could only use one of your two hands to operate the gun (unless a 2nd reader was on the other grip panel, I guess).


 I can think of other problems but it's a moot point because workable technology doesn't exist. Even if it does at some point in the future, there will be five YouTube videos on how to defeat it within a week of its introduction.


 Sorry, but this kind of thinking is typical of liberals - "Well, if we just did this, voila! Problem solved!" Without any real-world analysis of what it would take to get there, nor how practical or effective it would actually be. Remember "micro-stamping?" Another in a long line of worthless ideas dreamed up by liberals that would have no effect on preventing gun related crimes.

[ChungDoQuan]

Completely wrong, though still off topic. The computer that runs a cell phone is the size of a BB. A palm reader is far less complicated than a phone. We have palm and fingerprint readers where I work that read your palm or finger at any angle, as long as it's on the pad. Hospitals use them on drug dispensing machines, for the nurses, that recognize hundreds of different palm prints, just to open the drawers. LCD film on the grip, or just part of the grip would do it.

[Victor3]

 Completely wrong? How can that be, as you haven't answered my question...


 Again, please explain why you feel that this technology "can" be used for a handgun (not a large piece of hospital equipment).


 And for extra credit, explain how it cannot be easily defeated.

[ChungDoQuan]

Like I said, the actual computer is tiny.  It would easily fit into the grip of a handgun. A drug machine is large because it's a cabinet full of drugs. Easily defeated? The DEA would probably disagree, since they approved the use of the drug machines. You can not access the drug machine as someone else. Never.

[guzzijohn]

Come on again guys and girls. BACK ONTO THE TOPIC PLEASE. This is getting to be like trying to herd cats.
GuzziJohn

[BUGEYE]

 Sorry, but this kind of thinking is typical of liberals - "Well, if we just did this, voila! Problem solved!" Without any real-world analysis of what it would take to get there, nor how practical or effective it would actually be. Remember "micro-stamping?" Another in a long line of worthless ideas dreamed up by liberals that would have no effect on preventing gun related crimes.

You nailed it. plus this is just another way to take away more freedoms, and taking freedoms is their favorite sport.
which brings us back to the OP.  this is one of the few sites that allow them their 1st amendment right without getting banned when they spout such nonsense.

[Brett]

I see at least  three problems with smart guns that recognize the users finger or palm print right away.

1.  User could not wear gloves while using the weapon.

2.  If the users hand or the guns reader got dirty with mud, soil, blood, etc would it still work reliably?

3.  Batteries have a tendency to go dead when you need them most.   

[ironglow]

Come on again guys and girls. BACK ONTO THE TOPIC PLEASE. This is getting to be like trying to herd cats.
GuzziJohn

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     C'mon Guzzi..let's make some sense!  You make the query as to "why liberals use this site"..    The fact is, only a liberal, using their usual convoluted reasoning could answer that question factually.  So, did you want only liberals to contribute?   You can all then gather here and commiserate if that's what you had in mind.
      On the other hand, if you want discussion you should expect some conjectures and opinions from conservatives, who generally use reasoning  and common sense, rather than being emotion driven...as the liberal senate and assembly of NY State was just this past week.  Yet when some conjectures come up, you want to" stick to the OP".
   If you want only liberal participation, just say so....and drag out your "Kumbayah music sheet"..

[BUGEYE]

      On the other hand, if you want discussion you should expect some conjectures and opinions from conservatives, who generally use reasoning  and common sense, rather than being emotion driven...as the liberal senate and assembly of NY State was just this past week.

I've no doubt that you've done succeeded in persuading yourself of your own moral superiority, Ironglow.

Conservatives are morally superior.  liberals are only one rung above an ape on the evolutionary ladder.

[Brett]

Well I see this thread is going right down the old crapper.   

Waiter...  check please!

[KIMBER45]

Yep - another thread soon to be locked because some won't follow the rules.The SAME 5% I spoke of before.  I'm also gone from here... Hope someone soon takes charge by means other than locking this thread.

[lakota]

I see at least  three problems with smart guns that recognize the users finger or palm print right away.

1.  User could not wear gloves while using the weapon.

2.  If the users hand or the guns reader got dirty with mud, soil, blood, etc would it still work reliably?

3.  Batteries have a tendency to go dead when you need them most.

A few more problems:
 4. Recoil. I am no computer expert but I doubt they like being subject to repeated recoil.
 5. Cost. A palm reader would push the cost of firearms out of reach of the average person. The last time I checked the 2nd Amendment was for all citizens, even those that are poor.