Smart guns...

[Victor3]

 In another post, a member here opined (with no evidence) that biometric tech would be easy to incorporate into a handgun, and that smart guns would help prevent gun crime. Seeing as how working biometric guns have never been produced (past a few prototypes), it's obviously a bit more complicated than making a ham sandwich.


 Pie in the sky biometric guns aside, there's another method in the works; RFID. Unfortunately, after millions of $$$ in R&D, only a few RFID prototypes have been shown to function, and only under controlled conditions. No commercially viable units have yet been presented by any company/organization.


 Here are two recent (2013) articles regarding smart guns. Note who is pushing for them to be developed. If you happen to live in New Jersey, they may soon be the only type of handgun you'll be able to buy. Other localities will follow...


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/01/16/smart-guns-being-developed-that-only-shoot-in-the-hands-of-authorized-users-but-is-the-tech-up-to-snuff/


http://www.activistpost.com/2013/01/demand-plan-to-stop-smart-guns.html


 Examine the finer details and think about the implications here, because this technology will be viable at some point in the near future. Would you like the police to be able to deactivate your weapon from a distance?

[ChungDoQuan]

http://www.bayometric.com/products/usb-fingerprint-scanners-livescan-systems.htm

The tech is there. Take your pick.

[ironglow]

The tech is there to turn them on...and likely the tech would be there to turn them off..whenever Big Brother decides to make his move..
   The 2nd amendment is NOTABOUT squirrels and 'possums!  Some here even have trouble understanding the meaning of  the term..  INFRINGED !

[BUGEYE]

The tech is there to turn them on...and likely the tech would be there to turn them off..whenever Big Brother decides to make his move..
   The 2nd amendment is NOTABOUT squirrels and 'possums!  Some here even have trouble understanding the meaning of  the term..  INFRINGED !

I'll ask again, why is a liberal, who wants to INFRINGE on gun rights, at a site like this one where people actually believe in the constitution??

[kennyd]

Are these going to be at least as reliable as my windows computer?  The one that sometimes picks up a stray signal and does strange things?  The one that sometimes gets a MIND of ITS OWN and goes awry?


This thing has a fingerprint doohickey, no way am I going to activate it.  Even if it worked, how long would it take terrorists or criminals to find a way to deactivate the police guns, too.

[Shu]

Why would anyone want a gun that could be shut off by someone else? Why would you want a gun only you could fire?
 
The police department don't need this tech to protect themselves, they teach gun retention in the academies.
 
My Aunt was being chewed on by two pitbulls, she dropped her pistol. A neighbor hearing her screams came to investigate. The neighbor used her gun to dispatch both dogs. He could not have done that with a biometric identifiers on a gun. Just something else to think about.
She recieved over 100 stitches. The dog owner recieved a fine for unleasehed dogs.

[BUGEYE]

Are these going to be at least as reliable as my windows computer?  The one that sometimes picks up a stray signal and does strange things?  The one that sometimes gets a MIND of ITS OWN and goes awry?


This thing has a fingerprint doohickey, no way am I going to activate it.  Even if it worked, how long would it take terrorists or criminals to find a way to deactivate the police guns, too.

Yep, every time the good guys come up with a "doohickey", the bad guys come up with a doomaflatchey to counteract the doohickey.

[BUGEYE]

Why would anyone want a gun that could be shut off by someone else? Why would you want a gun only you could fire?
 
The police department don't need this tech to protect themselves, they teach gun retention in the academies.
 
My Aunt was being chewed on by two pitbulls, she dropped her pistol. A neighbor hearing her screams came to investigate. The neighbor used her gun to dispatch both dogs. He could not have done that with a biometric identifiers on a gun. Just something else to think about.
She recieved over 100 stitches. The dog owner recieved a fine for unleasehed dogs.

A great arguement against smart gun idiocy.

[lakota]

Just a couple of thoughts...The 2nd Amendment is spelled out in plain English(at least to me anyway) "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED"
 
1. The left always uses the argument the the 2nd Amendment refers to muskets and doesn't cover so called "assault weapons" because that technology didn't exist at the time the 2nd Amendment was written. If that is so the SAY NO TO "SMART GUNS that technology didn't exist at the time the 2nd Amendment was written either and therefore this biometric technology is a blatant infringement upon the right to keep and bear arms.
 
2. If the left is willing to grant the government the "right" to regulate one right that is clearly spelled out in the bill of rights, then what is to stop the government from regulating other rights? Therefore the left should just collectively shut the hell up the next time some right winger comes along and attempts to regulate reproductive rights or the right of gays to get married. These rights aren't even written out they are only assumed so the government should be well within their authority to squash those rights too, right?

[BUGEYE]

Lakota, you're right. That wording shows its not about rabbit hunting.
Liberals thnk that everyone but them are stupid.

[mcbammer]

How  bout   some  smart  gun   owners and  leave  the  guns  as  they  are. 

[Spirithawk]

Lets say they were a good idea. Can you just imagine how much they would charge you for one? Not going to get much use out of something you can't afford to buy.

[Redtail1949]

Yes, the technology is there,however, like so many great ideas when it comes to the practicle application they will determine this;
1. Not 100% reliable day or night, hot or cold, rain, snow, or sunshine.
2. It simply cost to much to implement if all the conditions in number 1 could be met.
It will never happen.

[mcwoodduck]

http://www.bayometric.com/products/usb-fingerprint-scanners-livescan-systems.htm

The tech is there. Take your pick.

No thank you.
But seeing as you think it is a great idea, let us know what system you picked.
Let us know how they work, and what they cost to retrofit all of your fire arms.
After all you should lead by example and not mandate what I do or buy. 
if enough people think like you do, the nyou can set up a company that retrofits firearms and you will be a millionaire in a free market.  My guess is you will starve to death waiting for customers. 

[Victor3]

http://www.bayometric.com/products/usb-fingerprint-scanners-livescan-systems.htm

The tech is there. Take your pick.

 It's there? Where exactly? Please direct me to the handgun section of their product listing. 

[Victor3]

Are these going to be at least as reliable as my windows computer?  The one that sometimes picks up a stray signal and does strange things?  The one that sometimes gets a MIND of ITS OWN and goes awry?


This thing has a fingerprint doohickey, no way am I going to activate it.  Even if it worked, how long would it take terrorists or criminals to find a way to deactivate the police guns, too.

Yep, every time the good guys come up with a "doohickey", the bad guys come up with a doomaflatchey to counteract the doohickey.

 Passive RFID chips can be easily defeated. This is info everyone concerned with privacy should know...


http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-blockkill-RFID-chips/step4/How-to-kill-your-RFID-chip/


 Unfortunately, RFID chips in guns will be ACTIVE. Among other things, this means that when turned on, your gun will be TRANSMITTING information about itself to anyone who has the equipment to read the signal. Its location, who the owner is, etc...


Active RFID tags may have all or some of the following features:

• longest communication range of any tag

• the capability to perform independent monitoring and control

• the capability of initiating communications

• the capability of performing diagnostics

• the highest data bandwidth

• active rfid tags may even be equipped with autonomous networking; the tags autonomously determine the best communication path.

• 
  [/size]http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/technology-article.asp?artnum=21
  
  
  
  

[williamlayton]

Remember this word "FEELINGS"--it can get you killed.
What we are attempting to argue is perfection and how we can achieve it. Now perfection is in the eye of the beholder---we all marry different women which is the final argument concerning perfection---then after 50 men sometimes find new definitions of perfection.
Folks there is no such thing attainable in this search for perfection---folks have made this attempt since they lost it in the garden while looking for a better perfection.
God fed the Israelites with quail and then Manna (a perfect food--an example of this still exists in the Arc--whereever this IS) and were not satisfied.
I am not in love with the Hippies or the liberals idea of perfection---there are just some people I don't like. As a matter of fact they have people they don't like--where is that perfection.
Feelings--that word again, the most imperfect of all verbs--it describes nothing and can produce nothing. It will get you killed unless you cut the cards.
Blessings
 

[Victor3]

 Just for fun, lets assume that Glock introduces a smart gun tomorrow. It's been proven to be nearly as reliable as any of their "dumb" guns. What might happen as a result of this wonderful new product?


 New Jersey residents, due to a law passed in 2002, are no longer able to purchase anything but a smart gun. Within months, hundreds of cities and states pass similar legislation and the feds are drawing up plans to go national with it.


 The media reports (24 hours a day for a week) a case where a 6 year old NJ boy got hold of new Glock (loaded) and showed it to his friends. It was unable to fire in the child's hands. Praise The Lord, children have been saved!


 The media neglects to report on 20 cases where a new Glock failed to fire in the hands of authorized users who were trying to thwart break-ins at their homes. 3 children and 5 adults are murdered by criminals with dumb guns.


 FBI reports that criminals are stealing smart guns and converting them back to dumb guns. National legislation is enacted that makes it a felony to tamper with a smart gun's mechanism.


 6 months later, FBI reports that felons are now stealing smart guns and converting them back to dumb guns.


 2 years later, FBI reports that criminals are still using revolvers and other dumb guns. New legislation is enacted that requires all dumb guns be turned in to your local police department in exchange for a $100 credit to buy a new $1400 Smart-Glock (Glock has the market cornered and can charge whatever they want).


 3 years later, owners report that their Smart-Glocks now fail to fire after being exposed to darkness. Glock determines that an electronic component is "past its service life" and the guns must be returned to the factory (all 19,000,000 of them) for repair. Unfortunately, the warranty expired a year ago. Not to worry though, they'll install a new battery for free along with the $180 service, toss in a new 3 round mag and pay for shipping of the gun both ways.


 The media reports that Smart-Glocks now account for less than 1% of gun deaths in the US (The guns can no longer fire, but media reports don't include that minor detail).


 4 years later, Glock is having legal issues because a faulty software patch in their guns caused them all to fire full-auto. Glock agrees to licence its smart gun technology to Norinco for $118,000,000.


 15 years later, President Michelle Obama declares the smart gun campaign to be a total success; it got all of those dangerous dumb guns "off the streets," all of the old (and registered by law) smart guns are inoperable due to age/faulty designs, and new smart guns are limited to one round of 22 long rifle...

[ChungDoQuan]

Service life for solid state components is measured in 1000s of years. There is no such thing as "exposure" to darkness--- darkness is the lack of light. In spite of all that, I never said that smart guns are the single solution to the problem--- there are no simple solutions to complex problems. It will take many approaches from many angles. It will never happen if everybody just throws up their hands and says, "It's to complicated; it can't be done." That usually translates into, "I can't do it."

[BUGEYE]

Service life for solid state components is measured in 1000s of years. There is no such thing as "exposure" to darkness--- darkness is the lack of light. In spite of all that, I never said that smart guns are the single solution to the problem--- there are no simple solutions to complex problems. It will take many approaches from many angles. It will never happen if everybody just throws up their hands and says, "It's to complicated; it can't be done." That usually translates into, "I can't do it."

1000s of years.  how do they know??  the components haven''t been around long enough....
my computer has a fan to cool those components or they will start to break down.

[ironglow]

Supposed to last thousands of years huh..  Tell that to the laptop I had to replace a few months ago, and the cell phone my grandaughter dropped just before Christmas..or the cell phone my friend dropped into his car wash water.
  I saw a keyboard that was destroyed because coffee was spilled on it.  The most beautiful guns are built by folks who believe in K.I.S.S.  (keep it simple, stupid)

[Empty Quiver]

Service life for solid state components is measured in 1000s of years. There is no such thing as "exposure" to darkness--- darkness is the lack of light. In spite of all that, I never said that smart guns are the single solution to the problem--- there are no simple solutions to complex problems. It will take many approaches from many angles. It will never happen if everybody just throws up their hands and says, "It's to complicated; it can't be done." That usually translates into, "I can't do it."

What exactly is the never happen if no one tries?


I take from your post you would be willing to give up many if not most of rights you now possess. God bless you and your opinion. I have no problem what so ever with you doing everything in your power to disarm yourself. However, kindly leave me out of your disarmament machinations. You and your life experiences have zero relevance in how my life need be lived, as I am sure you feel about me and mine.

I'm willing to believe you will lead a blessed life. Sunshine, rainbows and unicorns will brighten  your life. You will bestow love and gifts upon mankind, your family will prosper and you will go to the heaven which you envision (or alternately feed worms).


For me however I am a pessimist, I see lousy SOB's behind every dumpster, black helicopters are machine gunning puppy's and unicorns. Federation Storm Troopers are systematically raping women and children. My wife and children are worth killing others for or being killed myself, maybe yours are not, mine are.


My scenario is more likely if current and past world history is to be believed. Most wish for the former as the latter is being carried out. Hopeful is great but naive is deadly.


I am afraid that many of the progressive left look deeply into their souls and see the willingness to lose control and kill like wild animals given the opportunity. Perhaps it is best they are not given the means to do so. I cannot really envision myself going on a rampage a blood lust driven killing spree. I can see the evil in it and have not the evil within me, I don't fear weapons in the hands of those like minded.


Trite yes, but here it is. All women possess the tools to become prostitutes, yet few do, should they all be treated as such for simply having the tools available to them?

[ChungDoQuan]

There seems to be a lot of jumping to righty conclusion on here. I try to give examples of how the equipment could possibly be made safer, and somehow that gets transmogrified into me supporting disarmament. I'd just like to point out that, if no one ever tried to improve firearms, we'd all begin reloading by pouring powder down the muzzle. 

I understand why the right is so paranoid about the 2nd Amendment, though--- you gave away the other 9 in the Bill of Rights with the Homeland Security Act.  Under Bush.   

[ironglow]

There seems to be a lot of jumping to righty conclusion on here. I try to give examples of how the equipment could possibly be made safer, and somehow that gets transmogrified into me supporting disarmament. I'd just like to point out that, if no one ever tried to improve firearms, we'd all begin reloading by pouring powder down the muzzle. 

I understand why the right is so paranoid about the 2nd Amendment, though--- you gave away the other 9 in the Bill of Rights with the Homeland Security Act.  Under Bush.   

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
 
  Bush was bad enough on encroachment, but nothing like obummer..

[lakota]

A computer implanted into a gun that could deactivate it could hardly be called an improvement. Will I have to have a palm scanner implanted into the wrist of my flintlock Tennessee Mountain Rifle? What about my air rifle?

[SHOOTALL]

Ok I did not read each post. My take is any gun I have for SD is also to be used by my wife and other family members . When my wife and I go out I carry if something happens to me she can pick up the gund to defene herself and me. Anything that limits this is total BS. It limits the law abiding citizen without doing much if anything to the criminal.

[BUGEYE]

Supposed to last thousands of years huh..  Tell that to the laptop I had to replace a few months ago, and the cell phone my grandaughter dropped just before Christmas..or the cell phone my friend dropped into his car wash water.
  I saw a keyboard that was destroyed because coffee was spilled on it.  The most beautiful guns are built by folks who believe in K.I.S.S.  (keep it simple, stupid)

I believe it was you who said that if you could them on, someone could turn them off.
on an episode of cops, they had a bait car with the keys in it to trap bad guys.  the bad guy would take off in the car and then the cops would kill the ignition and lock the doors remotely.
yep K.I.S.S.

[Empty Quiver]

There seems to be a lot of jumping to righty conclusion on here. I try to give examples of how the equipment could possibly be made safer, and somehow that gets transmogrified into me supporting disarmament. I'd just like to point out that, if no one ever tried to improve firearms, we'd all begin reloading by pouring powder down the muzzle. 

I understand why the right is so paranoid about the 2nd Amendment, though--- you gave away the other 9 in the Bill of Rights with the Homeland Security Act.  Under Bush.   

The gun is not the problem. The interface between man and gun is not the problem. The problem is the organic component of the two. There is not a single gun related proposal short of a magic wand that will do any good. So long as an evil man can get his hand on the last gun with the last round of ammunition we will not be safe from the "gun wielding criminal."  I have seen precious little criminal control proposed or implemented. Early release.


Biden flat out admitting they have neither the will nor manpower to implement the laws currently on the books? I'm not making this up, it's too damned far fetched to invent from whole cloth. "Fellow citizens, since we cannot and will not arrest those who break our laws we propose to make further laws in an effort to make the world a safer place. To answer your question , no we do not expect to enforce these laws either. Thank you for your time. " This is a solution?


You are certainly correct about the Bush admn. and losing freedoms. However a / the later crowd in charge did not lift a finger to roll back this POS law did it? Dear Leader in fact has empowered Homeland Security, broadening powers and increasing the budget, he certainly did not lift a veto pen. The kettle screaming epithets at the pot is no solution is it?


How about we we demand that triggers must be sharpened to a razor edge, and this is the key, 25# minimum pull. Why if it will save just one kid, make it 85#s like the English longbow of ye olden times. A man is allowed one trigger pull per finger. A ten round magazine will last a man his entire shooting carreer.

[Sourdough]

Don't want one, won't buy one, will not convert mine to one.  Nuf said.

[mcwoodduck]

Q,
Are you saying that there is no easy solution to the Smart gun or that there is no easy solution to the violence problem being done by metally ill people.
If you are saying that the Smart gun will not be 100% reliable then it can also  be broken and anyone can use them, giving you a false sense of security.  The ones the police were looking at if you took out the power source they acted as a standard gun.
If you are saying that the Mentally ill that legally buy firearms like the moron at VA tech then that would still have happened.
If you are saying that this is a simple measure and a step forward in curtailing the tragic events, then you would not have curtailed the last four shootings as they had permission to use those guns as they were theirs or in the family. 
I am not sure what the answer is, I think it lies with the media that makes the most out of the event and almost makes the shooter a hero, and has done soe since Oswald making these loosers household names. 
But unlike you I do not want to infringe on anyones 1st amendment rights.  And yes you are infringing on my 1st amendment rights to assemble and associate with whom I please.  Taking away my ability to target shoot and try out other firearms is an assault on my 1st amendment with your Smart gun idea. 
Like I said you need to offer it as an option to retrofit guns that way.
And if it is good enough for the general population than it should be good enough for the police.  Once the police, FBI, DEA, Secret Service, accept them 100% then we can talk about the citizens having them.