mouse guns and deer

[SHOOTALL]

There is a debate on using Rem 223 on deer and it can get hot . Yea it can work but with so many better choices why bother ? Is it a stunt ? Once I read an article where two guys were using Browning High Power pistols and what they claimed was machine gun ammo to hunt brown bears , 9mm really with FMJ ammo ?
S T U N T plain and simple.
So I have to ask why the need to use a gun any gun of a cal. that is marginal at best ? Is it little more than a stunt ? Is it lack of knowlege ?
I do understand there are places on earth where light and small means having more ammo on hand , the north always comes up and how polar bears are killed with small cal. rifles as small as 22 lr. But they never say the same guys get to bad breath range to kill the bear. That they also used spears ect. That they don't hunt foir fun its their way of life .
 So why the desire to shoot deer with groundhog cal. rifles ?
 For me the bottom line is 25-06 . in cal. I once used a 30 carbine it to will take deer but not the best or even a reliable round for deer. So I don't use it anymore .
 One thing is for sure no one ever told me they had to much rifle but I have heard some say there rifle wasn't enough .

[RevJim]

 I too "worried" to death a young buck with a .30 carbine, but shot placement wasn't the best on first shot, admittedly. I think the case for  hot .22s is more Regional than arbitrary, i.e. small southern deer vs northern deer/mule deer. I have used the .220 Swift on Mule deer here in Utah and on exotics down in Texas. I was recovering from a neck surgery. I've also used a 6x47mm on axis deer and bigger, same reason though, health reasons. I do know people that use the .223, even the .22 Hornet, but they were shooting deer off of feeders at 25yds. Not much needed for that. All around deer hunting? Sure I agree the 25.06 and .240 Weatherby, .270  are great, but on those big Northern whitetail or even big Mule Deer, a .270 can be "marginal, with 30.06 class in the "better" category, or even the 7mm mags/300 mags. Now, private property hunters, etc, all can get by with smaller calibers, but the biggest complaint I ever heard on magnums as opposed to too small is either "they ruin too much meat" or "they kick too bad to shoot accurately". Never have I heard It killed them too dead, ha. But, having shot a few whitetails off of those close feeders, I did feel a bit silly using a 300 Winmag, ha. I used a 30-30 with comple satisfaction on those Texas deer, growing up. My only gripe with it was its iron sights, I missed a few out around 150yds with that particular rifle. But no sweat as 99% of my shots were under 65 steps! ha.

[Ranger99]

it's because of the recent ar fad.
now saying that, a relation used to
use an older ar for deer way before
ar's were the in thing. he did only do
head shots at closer ranges. i don't use
mine because i have at least one 30/30
which is more than adequate for whitetail
deer, and have larger cals. if i had the
opportunity to take a deer and had only
my .223, i'd take the shot if i had some
decent non-varmint type ammo and could
make a clean one shot on it.
(i never do hail-mary's bow or gun)

[BUGEYE]

I have killed four deer.  One in Oregon, one in Missouri, and two in Illinois.
Longest shot, 50yds
Each one could have been killed with a 22lr in the ear.
I think people should choose according to the terrain where they hunt.
I get in the thickest stuff I can find and imitate a tree. (Sit real still)
So my choice is federal auto-match 22lr 40 grain lead round nose.

I'm not trying to be funny, I'm dead serious.

[flintlock]

I guess ignorance on my part as I killed dozens with a 22-250 back in the 70s when I was young and dumb...They were eating our peanuts and my dad would take me and pick me up as I was too young to drive...
 
It did prove one thing to me, a 22-250 will sure lay them down in the hands of a good shot, never lost one with that gun...
 
Since then there have been improvements in bullets and Federal loads a 60gr Nosler Partition that my niece has used to kill 25 or so with...She prefers a high shoulder shot as they don't run with that...To date, she has not lost one...
 
I've got a buddy that kills a couple of deer a year with his .223...He loves to shoot groundhogs in the mountains here in NC...Most of the deer he shoots are out in his pasture and he just waits on his deck drinking coffee until his winter meat comes out...He isn't really a deer hunter but just a fellow that likes to put a couple of deer a year in the freezer to eat...He sees no need for another rifle as his does just fine...I've offered him my .243 as it's a "real" deer caliber but he turns me down...To date, he has killed 48 if my memory is right...You want me to tell him to stop using something that works???

[SHOOTALL]

I think I said it would work but with better options why bother ? Like you noted he is no hunter just shooting deer from his porch. And if he wants better meat he most likely shoots does ( I would) .

[JPShelton]

The .223 is not an ideal, all-purpose deer round in my view.  On the other hand, I know from first hand experience that there are some "niche forms" of deer hunting where the round is about as ideal as ideal gets.  For me, that was backpacking in to designated wilderness areas of National Forests on California's coastal mountain ranges while in pursuit of blacktail deer.  The largest blacktail I ever shot would have went around 100 pounds on the hoof.  Most that I shot on these backpacking trips were in the 75 pound to 80 pound range.  Where I used the .223, a 150 yard poke would have been a rare long shot because of the terrain and vegitation.  Most of my kills were between 50 to 75 yards and a I had a few that were under that.  For this, even a .223 firing factory WW 64 gr. Power Points seemed like overkill.
It wasn't just the cartridge, but the rifle I fired out of - I wanted the lightest, most compact, stainless steel rifle I could get my hands on. That was a Contender Carbine.
For the most part, my idea of the perfect "deer rifle" is the one rifle that I can use for everything from javalinas on up to elk and, hopefully one day before I die, even moose.  I want all of that plus mild enough manners on my end to be plesant to shoot during extended range sessions firing 200 rounds or more at a sitting.  For me, that all adds up to ".30-'06".
Still, if I ever backpack into the Ventana Wilderness again during the deer season for a week or two, I'd rather have that .223 Contender Carbine than lug my Ruger No. 1 in .30-'06 through that terrain, and I'd feel a little better about leaving the former outside for a week or two straight than the latter.  Either will kill a 75 pound blacktail deer dead at 75 yards, and the .30-'06 won't kill those deer any deader under those circumstances than a .223 with proper bullets will.
JP

[mcwoodduck]

it's because of the recent ar fad.
now saying that, a relation used to
use an older ar for deer way before
ar's were the in thing. he did only do
head shots at closer ranges. i don't use
mine because i have at least one 30/30
which is more than adequate for whitetail
deer, and have larger cals. if i had the
opportunity to take a deer and had only
my .223, i'd take the shot if i had some
decent non-varmint type ammo and could
make a clean one shot on it.
(i never do hail-mary's bow or gun)

Back in the 60's and 70's My dad's friend would hunt deer in Upstate NY with a 222 and did well with it.  Shot place ment is everything.
I have see na deer shot with a 22 hornet and it looked like a lightning strike.
Part of the problem is untill reciently was the construction of the 223 bullets.  They were either FMJ or varmint designs and neither were good for big game.  With recient nosler and bonded soft points you have expansion and penetration that work on big game.  The less recoil tends to work out better for kids and they shoot straiter, but it is up to us to make sure they use the gun no further out than they can shoot reliably.
And when you look at buck shot a single buck is about like a 32 ACP.  So whimpy works it is the amount of blood loss that does the trick
I tend to think deer shoud start with a 30 caliber.  I may be using too much gun on my deer and pigs but they fall down pretty quickly. 
I understand the want to use the AR on game, I do not use mine but I understand the want to use them for big game.
You never know when you use too much gun but you sure know when you don't use enough and you chase a wounded critter all over the county.
 

[pastorp]

After 60 years or so of hunting all kinds of critters all over the USA I've come to the conclusion that where you shoot the animal is more important than what you shoot it with. 

I believe we should let folks use what works for them, as long as legal, and quit acting like a bunch of Yankee Democrats trying to force everyone to do things our way. JMO.

Of course threads like this is what gets the post count up there.

Regards,

[Land_Owner]

Many Wildlife Biologists use 22-250, 223, and like caliber during sanctioned deer "harvests" on both wildlife depredation hunts with spotlights or research hunts likewise using spotlights.  Kill the Alpha Doe and the rest freeze in anticipation of a new "Guide On" emerging from the herd.  Pick 'em off boys.  Ranges are within 125 yards.  Head and neck shots only.  Steady rest.  Accurate rifles.  Powerpoint ammunition.  Fifteen to twenty (15-20) seasoned, practiced, and Expert Marksmen.

Out of a tree stand last Sunday afternoon I shot a 25 pound piglet from 15 yards with a Varmint Nightmare, .223 caliber, 55 grain soft point.  It entered the broadside, mid-body, right shoulder from a high angle of attack slightly foward and fragmented through the neck.  A piece came out on the right side of the cheek next to the nose.  Bullet parts exited the off side.  The bullet fragmented against the shoulder and neck.  Inside the neck was a mess.  Definately NOT the right bullet choice.  Should have used a 60 grain Nosler Partition.  Still waiting to see how the Nosler performs on small hogs.  Meat tasted pretty darn good at Monday's dinner though.

[Cemo]

I have a .223 cal. TC Contender rifle with a 16-1/4" barrel, weighing in just over 4 lbs. that gets used just about every year by some young family member to hunt deer. Being low recoiling, new shooters are easy to teach how to shoot with it. Put a bullet designed for deer hunting into a deer's chest just behind the shoulder and the deer won't go far. Last year a lady friend who was recovering from a arm operation used it to take her buck. No deer shot with this gun ever ran more than 60 yards.

[LanceR]

Each of us is responsible to choose a load that can get the job done and put the bullet in an appropriate place.  It really isn't a matter to be decided by other folks opinion or by a poll unless it is a poll with one participant.

I have used an match built AR-15 with a very fast twist barrel and 62 and 70 grain Barnes TSX bullets on deer.  All have been patient shots roughly broadside through the lungs.  All have resulted in pass throughs and quickly dead deer. 

A good friend has hunted for many years with an older Sako that is is "go to" deer rifle and which he originally used in 222 and later had rechambered to 223.  He doesn't loose deer either.

While I normally use a 20 gauge slug gun or a 308 depending on whether I'm in  shotgun only area, when I am hunting close to houses and other occupied buildings I have no hesitation in reaching for the 223.  It is a lot quieter and is no where near as startling or intrusive as the shotgun or 308.

My AR has a small rail on the side of the hand guard for a Surefire M961 tactical weapon light that I use for nighttime coyote and other fur bearers so the AR would be my first choice for nighttime nuisance deer, too.

As others have pointed out, if we aren't taking the vast improvement in hunting bullets for smallish to medium sized big game in .224 bullets into account we shouldn't bother to have this conversation.

For example, I don't think anyone can make an argument that a .357 pistol is not an effective game getter.  It is the most popular big game pistol cartridge by a long shot and has likely taken millions of deer over the last 75 years.

The Barnes bullets consistently expand to twice their original diameter.  In the case of a .224 bullet, one of them makes a bigger, deeper hole than a .357 bullet does and carries more energy at 300 yards than the hottest .357 pistol load does at the muzzle while still having more than sufficient velocity to fully expand at that distance.  When looking at facts and not opinion or prejudice one simply cannot make an argument that a 223 load such as the Barnes TSX or Partition is anything but a solid deer load.  It may not be the "best" choice for some but the plain fact is that there sure are a lot of cases for which it is the best load for folks like me.

Bottom line: 

1.  Any bullet put through the lungs = a quickly dead deer.

2. Any bullet placed in the wrong place = wounded deer, maybe a lost deer.

so,

3.  Pick an appropriate load, put the shot in a good place and go tag your deer....

Thanks

Lance

[jhm]

     Lots of things CAN be done, but what is the point of seeing how little of a cartridge you can use to kill a deer?  give the deer and yourself  the respect of using a caliber designed for the job.  Jim

[SHOOTALL]

really if you have to defend your choice to others hunters is it the best choice to start with ?

[pastorp]

I believe all the statements made in "defense" of small calibers for deer were made in answer to your OP. none of us half to do anything, were just playing along with your game. 

Regards,

[flintlock]

really if you have to defend your choice to others hunters is it the best choice to start with ?

Not defending, just sharing our experience...That's how others learn...Evidently you have no experience to share with these cartridges so maybe you have learned something....

[mcwoodduck]

After 60 years or so of hunting all kinds of critters all over the USA I've come to the conclusion that where you shoot the animal is more important than what you shoot it with. 

I believe we should let folks use what works for them, as long as legal, and quit acting like a bunch of Yankee Democrats trying to force everyone to do things our way. JMO.

Of course threads like this is what gets the post count up th
Regards,
[/quote
But you hit the nail on the head with the word legal. Those same busy birdies are the ones making the rules.  If a mouse gun works then it works.

[SHOOTALL]

really if you have to defend your choice to others hunters is it the best choice to start with ?

Not defending, just sharing our experience...That's how others learn...Evidently you have no experience to share with these cartridges so maybe you have learned something....

Not really I noted up front they could kill deer . And most here have admitted the shot must be perfect. Which brings up my point with better and more reliable rounds aval. why bother with lesser rounds as not all shots are perfect. Not to mention stuff happens. I will stand by my post about defending the mouse gun .
 Even the department of game and inland fish here ban the use of any .22 cal bullet for deer or bear.

[flintlock]

Well, .22 centerfires are legal for deer in more states than not...But frankly the Fish and Game don't always know as much as those with actual experience...Look at the hodge podge of regulations on muzzleloading hunting...
 
Perfect shots??? You have a kill zone on a deer at least 10 inches in diameter...Most good bolt action rifles with a scope will easily hit a 50 cent piece at 100 yards...If a hunter can't keep all his shots inside a soft ball at ranges out to 200 yards in the field then he has other problems rather than his choice of cartridges...

[BUGEYE]

When I USED to hunt, if I could see 25yds, I tried to find some place thicker.
I wouldn't hunt where there are long vistas, but that's me.
choose according to terrain, and DO NOT shoot past the point-blank-range of your rifle-bullet-sight capability.  when you are unsure of the distance to the deer etc. guesswork should not enter in.
I belonged to a hunt club where a guy under-estimated the distance and gut-shot a doe.
we all crawled on hands and knees for hours before we found her.  she would leave a few drops of blood every few yards.  she was pitiful when we found her.  she was shaking and you could see the fear in her eyes.
don't get me wrong, I'm a hunter from way back, but THINK before you go out to kill an animal.

[mechanic]

I've killed deer with 7 mag., 50 cal in line, 30-30, 280, 30-06, 22-250 and probably some more I can't recall right now.  I can no longer shoot anything with recoil, so this past season I used a 223.  One shot one deer.  Almost total penetration, a very large wound channel and a hole in the heart and both lungs.  Dead is dead.
 
Know your load, use the right bullet and put it in the right place.
 
Ben

[JonnyReb]

When I USED to hunt,
I belonged to a hunt club where a guy under-estimated the distance and gut-shot a doe.
we all crawled on hands and knees for hours before we found her.  she would leave a few drops of blood every few yards.  she was pitiful when we found her.  she was shaking and you could see the fear in her eyes.
don't get me wrong, I'm a hunter from way back, but THINK before you go out to kill an animal.

  This is why I would never consider a sub caliber unless I KNEW I had a perfectly placed shot, and proably not then. Wounded animals haunt me long long after the incident. I want mine to never know what hit them.  J

[FPH]

When I USED to hunt,
I belonged to a hunt club where a guy underestimated the distance and gut-shot a doe.
we all crawled on hands and knees for hours before we found her.  she would leave a few drops of blood every few yards.  she was pitiful when we found her.  she was shaking and you could see the fear in her eyes.
don't get me wrong, I'm a hunter from way back, but THINK before you go out to kill an animal.

  This is why I would never consider a sub caliber unless I KNEW I had a perfectly placed shot, and probably not then. Wounded animals haunt me long long after the incident. I want mine to never know what hit them.  J

X2

[LanceR]

When I USED to hunt,
I belonged to a hunt club where a guy underestimated the distance and gut-shot a doe.
we all crawled on hands and knees for hours before we found her.  she would leave a few drops of blood every few yards.  she was pitiful when we found her.  she was shaking and you could see the fear in her eyes.
don't get me wrong, I'm a hunter from way back, but THINK before you go out to kill an animal.

  This is why I would never consider a sub caliber unless I KNEW I had a perfectly placed shot, and probably not then. Wounded animals haunt me long long after the incident. I want mine to never know what hit them.  J

X2

I must confess to being underwhelmed at this as an argument against smaller caliber rifles.  A gut shot deer, regardless of reason, is a poorly shot deer.  What you had was a lousy call by the shooter and in no way can that be reflective of any issue with the cartridge used.

A lousy shot is a lousy shot and a gut shot deer is a gut shot deer which won't change even if the person making a poor decision uses a .458 Win Mag.

Once again all I see is smoke.  Has anybody here ever heard a hunter exclaim "Darn, if that hole had only been two hundredths of an inch bigger I'd have had that trophy deer" (.243) or anything like "Holy smokes Bubba! That extra 3 hundredths of an inch of the manly rifle you've got (25-06) sure kills 'em deader than dead!"?

Lance

[BUGEYE]

When I USED to hunt,
I belonged to a hunt club where a guy underestimated the distance and gut-shot a doe.
we all crawled on hands and knees for hours before we found her.  she would leave a few drops of blood every few yards.  she was pitiful when we found her.  she was shaking and you could see the fear in her eyes.
don't get me wrong, I'm a hunter from way back, but THINK before you go out to kill an animal.

  This is why I would never consider a sub caliber unless I KNEW I had a perfectly placed shot, and probably not then. Wounded animals haunt me long long after the incident. I want mine to never know what hit them.  J

X2

I must confess to being underwhelmed at this as an argument against smaller caliber rifles.  A gut shot deer, regardless of reason, is a poorly shot deer.  What you had was a lousy call by the shooter and in no way can that be reflective of any issue with the cartridge used.

A lousy shot is a lousy shot and a gut shot deer is a gut shot deer which won't change even if the person making a poor decision uses a .458 Win Mag.

Once again all I see is smoke.  Has anybody here ever heard a hunter exclaim "Darn, if that hole had only been two hundredths of an inch bigger I'd have had that trophy deer" (.243) or anything like "Holy smokes Bubba! That extra 3 hundredths of an inch of the manly rifle you've got (25-06) sure kills 'em deader than dead!"?

Lance

My argument was not against small calibers.  it was for taking responsibility.  too many people shoot a large caliber on the premise that a bad shot will still kill the animal.  a .223 in the hands of a person who realizes its limitations is more effective than a .458win in the hands of a person who can't handle its power.  my choice "for me" is still a .22lr.

[Alias DW]

What was the intended purpose of your original post? I have used 222/223 for 50 years,and mostly with varmint bullets,and have killed more deer than you would ever believe.There is nothing you could do or say that would make me change my mind to run out and buy a bigger gun. I'm inclined to think using a big gun is a stunt to impress someone. I'm very happy with what I know works.                  Happy Hunting

[muznut 54]

I never considered my standard 223 but am tempted to use my 223 or 243wssm's but every time I open my safe for big game hunting I have that voice in my head telling me to take my BLR 358win.

[JonnyReb]

 My post wasn't trying to convince anyone not to use a .223, I was just saying that personally I like a bigger caliber to insure fast drops. I typically use a 12ga with saboted remington ammo, close range, shoulder shots, and most of my deer literally go stiff and fall over. I doubt a .223 would have the same effect, short of a brainshot. I also say a hunters prayer for no suffering. Could be a factor of both tactics. For longer range hunts I shoot .308 and it too leaves no doubt as too its efficiency at clean harvests, with good ammo.

 My uncle and cousin have used a .243 and a .223 bolt action on their family dairy farm for at least the last 20 years. They shoot coyotes and other pests, plus take multiple deer every year with them. I know they have to track animals far more than I do, but on the other hand they take long range and running shots I wouldn't. They think they are great calibers and all they need.  J

[Spanky]

I always get a kick out of these threads.    I say stop questioning the guns and start questioning your ability... you'll find out pretty quick that one of them ain't up to snuff... and it ain't the guns.
 
 
 
Spanky

[mcwoodduck]

I always get a kick out of these threads.    I say stop questioning the guns and start questioning your ability... you'll find out pretty quick that one of them ain't up to snuff... and it ain't the guns.
 
 
 
Spanky

I agree to a point.
I know 223 will kill things and larger animals than what Winchester puts on the box 1-3
But the bullet construction on the small calibers is a must. 
Once you answer the question about the bullet being able to get to the soft squishy parts and expand the next question is are you able to hit the deer in the vitals every shot.  if both answers are yes then go for it.  if either answer is no then move up in caliber.  Not in power and make the shots you can with pistol calibers like 357 mag.