Author Topic: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US  (Read 673 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.


Offline Conan The Librarian

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4494
  • McDonalds. Blecch!
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2013, 03:47:08 AM »
Very interesting. (I think they've been at Le Mans for several years.)

Offline yellowtail3

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5664
  • Gender: Male
  • Oh father of the four winds, fill my sails!
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2013, 04:00:04 AM »
We'll see. With direct injection (into combustion chamber) and higher compression in gas engines, diesels will have to be pretty good to be attractive alternatives
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline kennyd

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 528
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2013, 04:08:39 AM »
I used to wish for small diesels in pickups.  Knew a guy who had a Datsun from Canada with a small diesel, not available in the US.  Now you probably could not even bring one in.  Now with the extra dollar or more in cost for fuel, I am not sure.  The one thing is that a well built diesel is a heavy long lasting engine.  Now we are faced with computer controlled automatics, lghter running gear, and no option for a clutch tranny.  Something like a F150 with about a 3.5 or 4.0.  All the duramaxes, power strokes, and cummins are large displacement and offered only in the 1 tons.
just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they are not watching you

Offline Conan The Librarian

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4494
  • McDonalds. Blecch!
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2013, 04:17:21 AM »
The interesting thing here is the need for horsepower. Race cars traditionally work best with gas engines or similar volatile fuels because the can have high horsepower. In other words, not just torque, but torque in a hurry. I wonder how these diesel racers do it.

Offline Empty Quiver

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2847
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2013, 04:40:45 AM »
Fellas, I would research deeply before I took on a modern diesel vehicle.


I drive a semi, and my experience with the modern trucks has been hit or miss to be kind. The emission systems are not worked out in my opinion, and if they are, they can be considered a maintenance nightmare. EGR systems dumping as much as 75% of the exhaust back into the combustion chamber, turbo boost in the 30 psi range, Diesel Exhaust Fluid, particulate traps and the burn off associated with them.


I'm not saying I know any of the specifics of the Mazda. Cummins, Mercedes, Detroit Diesel, Mack, Volvo, International, none of them have a handle on the situatiion. To add insult to injury the efficiency has suffered as well, you can no longer count on the extreme high fuel efficiency that was once the hallmark of diesel engines.


I made the decision to turn in a 20012 truck with 65k on the clock. I took a 2006 with 885k and haven't looked back. It doesn't leave me sitting along side of the road waiting for the trap to burn out, the egr system is less intrusive, and the check engine light doesn't burn all the time. We get 10 - 12 new trucks a year and since 2009 the problems have increased exponentially with every new model.


You will be a beta tester. Remember the '80's? diesels are where gas motors were in 1982.
**Concealed Carry...Because when seconds count help is only minutes away**

Offline blind ear

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4156
  • Gender: Male
    • eddiegjr
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2013, 04:56:06 AM »
I used to wish for small diesels in pickups.  Knew a guy who had a Datsun from Canada with a small diesel, not available in the US.  Now you probably could not even bring one in.  Now with the extra dollar or more in cost for fuel, I am not sure.  The one thing is that a well built diesel is a heavy long lasting engine.  Now we are faced with computer controlled automatics, lghter running gear, and no option for a clutch tranny.  Something like a F150 with about a 3.5 or 4.0.  All the duramaxes, power strokes, and cummins are large displacement and offered only in the 1 tons.
-
+1, I have been waiting for a "highway" setup 4x4 light truck, diesel for a long time and the builders keep moving in every dirrection except that. Just like Mcdonalds they keep building them "bigger" and "less" efficent. People looking for that type vehicle are likely to not buy but that one vehicle and just keep rebuilding it. Not a disposable consumer item, or mindset. ear
Oath Keepers: start local
-
“It is no coincidence that the century of total war coincided with the century of central banking.” – Ron Paul, End the Fed
-
An economic crash like the one of the 1920s is the only thing that will get the US off of the road to Socialism that we are on and give our children a chance at a future with freedom and possibility of economic success.
-
everyone hears but very few see. (I can't see either, I'm not on the corporate board making rules that sound exactly the opposite of what they mean, plus loopholes) ear
"I have seen the enemy and I think it's us." POGO
St Judes Childrens Research Hospital

Offline Conan The Librarian

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4494
  • McDonalds. Blecch!
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2013, 04:57:56 AM »
Hey, EmptyQuiver:
 
Since you know a lot about this, can you explain the difference between winter and summer fuels for diesels? I understand that they add something or change the formulation for winter use so the fuel doesn't gel. Does that have an effect on performance and fuel mileage?
 
Also, I go to a station with a lot of diesel buyers. It's a favorite of truckers because it's the best station in the area for diesel. I get in a lot of good conversations.
 
Some pour in an additive. I've never asked what it does. Are you familiar with this, and what it does?
 
Also, did you say that you actually have to stop and wait when the particulate filter is being cleaned out, automatically I presume? Yikes!!!
 
As for pickup truck engines, I've been amazed at how people will switch brands because of the reputation of a particular diesel engine. For example, Ford has a bad one for a while, so they switch to Chevy or Dodge, and vice versa.
 
Thanks!

Offline Sourdough

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8150
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2013, 06:47:07 AM »
A bad EGR system cost me an engine, 10K worth.
 
BMW and VW have some hot (I mean HOT) diesel cars running around Europe.
 
Conan:  During the winter here in Alaska we use number 1 diesel, during the summer we use number 2.  Number 2 will gell when chilled below Zero degrees.  Number one won't.  That's all I can tell you.  One year I forget to change out the fuel in my F-350.  When I got back to Alaska the fuel was jelled and I could not drain it out of the fuel tank.  Had to wait till we had a 40 degree day to warm it up.  Started it up and took it to a garage and drained the fuel.
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
What Is A Veteran?
A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline Empty Quiver

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2847
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2013, 12:12:52 PM »
Hey, EmptyQuiver:
 
Since you know a lot about this, can you explain the difference between winter and summer fuels for diesels? I understand that they add something or change the formulation for winter use so the fuel doesn't gel. Does that have an effect on performance and fuel mileage?
 
Also, I go to a station with a lot of diesel buyers. It's a favorite of truckers because it's the best station in the area for diesel. I get in a lot of good conversations.
 
Some pour in an additive. I've never asked what it does. Are you familiar with this, and what it does?
 
Also, did you say that you actually have to stop and wait when the particulate filter is being cleaned out, automatically I presume? Yikes!!!
 
As for pickup truck engines, I've been amazed at how people will switch brands because of the reputation of a particular diesel engine. For example, Ford has a bad one for a while, so they switch to Chevy or Dodge, and vice versa.
 
Thanks!
As to fuel. Summer time you get Diesel that is based on #2 fuel oil ( lots of tech stuff that separate the two but work with me here ). That summer fuel will start to congeal and have wax particles form somewhere around 20 degrees. There are two ways to combat this one is to cut the fuel with a lighter grade ( #1 furnace oil, Kerosene being common) or use a chemical compound that fights the coagulation of the wax particles ( Power Service, Howes, and many others). Heavy fuel gives the most power the wax burns hot and is a good thing, blended fuel passes through the filters and ignites at lower temperatures also a good thing. Heavier fuel with additive can burn hot and should pass through the filters a really good thing, it may not allow the engine to start which isn't so good. Fuel blending is a art and a science unto itself. In my experience i would rather give up economy and power so I ere on the thin side ( I do not buy fuel). The fleet manager tends to ere on the heavy side ( he pays the fuel bill and sits in an office).


Truckers and additive. As I said before I am the one who might be sitting along side the road at -17, 50 miles from a truck stop  at 0230 friday night. Good luck getting timely service. I use enough additive to work with summer fuel if needed. If the fuel station does not get the blend correct sorry won't do me much good 600 miles away. Which brings up another point, fuel is blended for the local climate primarily. If I were to fuel in say Kentucky I would not have to fuel again for 1300 miles give or take. That might put me in International falls, Mn. at -31, or perhaps in Miami, Fl. at 81. Those heading north will put in plenty of additive ( probably would not top off either) those going south would try to find untreated / blended fuel.


Regen as it is called. Rarely does one have to stop for the regen cycle. But, if your recent driving style or conditions have not allowed for an automatic regen yes you pull over and it cycles, or you limp along at VASTLY reduced power. The particulate trap does just that, it filters out the soot particles. When the engine management computer senses enough back pressure it goes through a process of dumping fuel into the trap and igniting the fuel and burning the soot. I look at this as dumping your ashtray along the road rather than flipping the butts out the window as you smoke,  ;D ( but I'm not an EPA official so I am no doubt wrong ) Most of the time it does this and you never know about it.

Brand loyalty. They all have been dealing with the EPA mandates, Some have done a better job than others and when they leapfrog the competition they reap the benefits. The new standards have been coming out every 2-3 years and this is why some are good today and not so good next year. Just know this none are as good as they were in 2003 before all this crap started. [/size]

[size=78%]As I understand it the DEF systems hold the most promise and is where most Diesels are right now. At some point these things will be standardized  and the memory of 20mpg and 200k with one service will be faded. Who knows it may be like the gassers  the 2013 Ford Boss302 is faster now than it was in 1969 who would have thunk it ten years ago?
**Concealed Carry...Because when seconds count help is only minutes away**

Offline yellowtail3

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5664
  • Gender: Male
  • Oh father of the four winds, fill my sails!
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2013, 01:30:16 PM »
Who knows it may be like the gassers  the 2013 Ford Boss302 is faster now than it was in 1969 who would have thunk it ten years ago?
I came of age in the mid-late 70s, when cars were getting slower and worse and i figured by the time I could buy something new, they'd all be dogs. My first car was a '66 Mustang, 289 w/4spd. I later had a 67 289 that Dad taught me to drive on... until I was nearly 30 (crashed, not my fault). I bought an 88 LX 5.0, it as far better than either of the classic mustangs. The current one is an absolute homerun - faster than anything made in the sixties (excepting maybe a Cobra 427) and looks like a 69 Mach 1... I like it.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2013, 04:44:10 PM »
I thought after the first Opec oil embargo all auto racing went to an alchol based racing fuel.
 
In the 80's Jeep had a Cherokee that used a 2.5L diesel motor and got about 45 miles to the gallon.

Offline Brett

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5148
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2013, 02:41:16 AM »
I don't see any great advantage to them any more.   Initial cost for a diesel vehicle is considerably higher than for a gas vehicle.  Gas engines have become a lot more efficient getting MPG ratings very close to the modern emissions hindered diesels.  So with the higher cost of diesel fuel you're not going to save anything at the pump.   Routine maintenance (oil and filter changes for example) cost are quadruple what they are for a gas engine.  Plus modern gas engines hold up pretty well if you keep up with your oil changes.  I have a 4cyl. Chrysler PT Cruiser with over 186k and a 6cyl Dodge Dakota with over 165k on the odometers.  I know of folks getting well in excess of 200k with v8s.   
Life memberships:  <><, NRA, BASS, NAFC

Offline Conan The Librarian

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4494
  • McDonalds. Blecch!
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2013, 04:02:51 AM »
EmptyQuiver:
 
Thanks for the great explanation. I learned a lot!!!
 
As for the 1980s, I worked for a guy that had a 1979-ish Cadiallac Seville (the really ugly one that looked like something Quasimodo would drive). He owned two, actually. A gas and a diesel. He was a car nut. I drove both running errands for him. The gas car was pretty nice. Very comfortable, good power, etc. The diesel was the worst POS I've ever driven. Bar none! That thing needed a tailwind just to accellerate from a stop light. Accelleration was so gradual that there was a frustrating sense that I wasn't moving. Scary when I needed to cross an intersection where I had to wait for traffic. I'd have to wait until there was nobody within a half mile before trying to cross.
 

Offline Conan The Librarian

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4494
  • McDonalds. Blecch!
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2013, 04:20:10 AM »
Brett:
My buddy owns a VW Passat diesel. He drives highway a lot as a sales rep. Year round average is about 44mpg for all kinds of driving, including quite a bit in the city. Adjusted for the difference between diesel and gasoline that's about 37mpg in gasoline terms. Basically what he is getting is a high performance luxury car that gets really good fuel mileage. I've been in it a few times and it is a truly superb road car. Got to drive it too and it made me want one. Very good performance. Extremely comfortable.
 
Maintenance costs are about the same as for a gas car, but he is more tied to the dealer because fewer people know how to service them. That's VWs in general, not just their diesels. It uses special oil that he can't get at most auto parts stores. The transmission is special. I don't understand it, but it's an automatic that doesn't have a torque converter. It's more like a manual transmission internally. That requires special service too. The car has over 200k miles on in it, and he has had no maintenance except normal service intervals and tires.
 
About durability of gas engines, I totally agree. I've got 310k on a V6 Explorer. It's holding up very well. Main bearing seal leaks a little oil, but not much.

Offline Larry L

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 780
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2013, 04:50:38 AM »
The new Mazda diesel is a low compression engine that uses exhaust valve overlap instead of an EGR system. Fewer parts and less headaches. Because of the low compression, there is no urea exhaust treatment. This is a Tier 2 bin 5 engine. Because of the low compression, the engine is not built like a typical diesel with heavy moving parts but like a big block gas engine. Diesels are normally noted as being a low RPM engine versus a gas engine but with the low compression design, parts are light and RPMs can be high. There are race diesel engines out there running comfortably at 10,000 RPMs.
If you like a smaller truck than the current bloated pigs, GM is bringing in the new Colorado/Canyon with a diesel. They have spent an enormous amount of time and money on development so this one should be right from the start. There's no part of the truck that hasn't been scrutinized. Should be an interesting introduction when it hits the streets this summer.

Offline Drilling Man

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3635
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2013, 05:02:37 AM »
I used to wish for small diesels in pickups.  Knew a guy who had a Datsun from Canada with a small diesel, not available in the US.  Now you probably could not even bring one in.  Now with the extra dollar or more in cost for fuel, I am not sure.  The one thing is that a well built diesel is a heavy long lasting engine.  Now we are faced with computer controlled automatics, lghter running gear, and no option for a clutch tranny.  Something like a F150 with about a 3.5 or 4.0.  All the duramaxes, power strokes, and cummins are large displacement and offered only in the 1 tons.

  Actually, you can buy a 3/4 ton pu with a diesel now...  And around here, diesel usually is about 20 to 30 cents more a gallon, with it sometimes being cheaper than gas, when the gas prices spike with it's highs.
 
  It looks like GM will offer a diesel in it's Colorado next year (2014) when GM brings it back, at least that's what i've read in a couple truck magazines.
 
  It also looks like Ford may try a diesel in their F150 in 14 too?
 
  DM

Offline Drilling Man

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3635
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2013, 05:07:38 AM »
I thought after the first Opec oil embargo all auto racing went to an alchol based racing fuel.
 
In the 80's Jeep had a Cherokee that used a 2.5L diesel motor and got about 45 miles to the gallon.

  I know two people who bought that diesel Jeep, both told me that 30mpg was hard to get.  SO, i'd never believe 45mpg.
 
  DM

Offline Conan The Librarian

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4494
  • McDonalds. Blecch!
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2013, 05:23:33 AM »
Low compression diesels for racing? wuh!?! I thought that diesels by definition needed high compression to light the fuel. How does it work?
 
I don't know about the jeep of the 80s, but the cadillac diesel seville had an engine based on a gas engine block. Basically, they took a gas v8 design and made the minimum changes needed to turn it into a diesel. In other words, it wasn't a serious effort, and it really, really showed.

Offline Larry L

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 780
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2013, 09:40:47 AM »
Quote
Low compression diesels for racing? wuh!?! I thought that diesels by definition needed high compression to light the fuel. How does it work?
You're making a common mistake assuming that the compression RATIO is causing ignition of the fuel when injected. That would be wrong as you're forgetting boost. Boost by blower or turbo in effect can raise the compression even though the compression ratio is the same. You can actually take 2 of the same engines, lower the compression ratio to 14:1 in one and have 22:1 in the other and make more power with the lower compression engine with boost. What fires the fuel is the heat generated from the compression. Naturally aspirated diesels at 20:1 on the compression stroke will generate roughly 1025F of heat. Diesel fuel will go into ignition at 450F. What a low compression diesel engine brings to a race team is the  ability to run the injection timing far in advance of a normal diesel engine which allows it to yield more power and higher RPMs by giving the fuel more time to give up it's potential energy. So they are getting all of the power that comes with the diesel, much better fuel mileage, and a lighter engine that's yielding more power per pound than a comparable gas engine.


In the case of the Mazda engine, the exhaust valve overlap means that hot exhaust gases are being drawn back into the combustion chamber on the intake stroke providing ignition heat.

Offline Drilling Man

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3635
Re: Mazda may be first to bring a small high performance diesel to the US
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2013, 09:57:48 AM »
I don't know about the jeep of the 80s, but the cadillac diesel seville had an engine based on a gas engine block. Basically, they took a gas v8 design and made the minimum changes needed to turn it into a diesel. In other words, it wasn't a serious effort, and it really, really showed.

  The V8 was a gas design, BUT it wasn't the same gas motor block.  The diesel block is a much beefed up block.
 
  The real failures in that engine was that it had the same amount of head bolts/studs that the gas engine had and origionally the same size too.  Then GM torqued them to a higher spec and the bolts stretched.  THEN they went to bigger higher torque rated bolts, but the damage to their rep was already done!
 
  ALSO, the metric 200 tranny wasn't much good either, so with the first spec motor, it made the whole package a huge failure!
 
  Next was the 6.2's in 1982, and they were/are a full diesel design, other than by todays standard they are pretty low powered, they weren't a bad motor for their time.
 
  DM