Cannon Carriage questions

[Indygunworks]

First post but i have been browsing here for almost 8 months now.  I have decided to pull the trigger on a hern iron works "verbruggen" cannon barrel.  Its 46 inchs long and 260 pounds so its more like a british light three pounder and not so much "verbruggen".  I chose this because i want my first cannon to be big enough to feel and look like a "full size" cannon but w/out the weight and hassle.  I dont want the thing to turn out looking "small" or toyish like some of the scale models i have seen pictures of.
 
I have so far intended on building my version of a prairie carraige on 42 inch wheels, and making everything else around them to the point where they just look correct.  However i would like to stay somewhat true to the barrels heritage and have not been able to find any information on how far back the prairie carraige goes.  Was it used during the rev war?  Could you make any argument to how the colonists might have ended up w/a  british light three pounder on a prairie carraige? 
 
would 55 inches be able to be considered "full size" for the day?
 
If the prairie cairage is not proper, does anybody have some pictures of a cairage that would be more time appriate?  Again,  dont not want to spend lots of money on the cairaige trying to be periodically correct, just a general apearance of the time.
 
About how long should my trail be if i am mounting this thing on 42 inch wheels w/ a cheek hight of around 8-10 inch's.
 
Sorry for the questions and i know it sounds like i dont know what i am doing, but this is more for the fun of it than for any other purpose so i dont want to follow a specific set of plans and just need a general guideline of what is "appropriat".  I want to build as big as i can w/out it looking goofy.
 
Here are a few pictures of the barrel.  This is not my barrel but is the one i am ordering.
 

 

 

 

 
 

[Double D]

This barrel always had a Naval gun look to me.

[little seacoast]

 
 
 
Hi, If you are looking for period correct, the Prairie carriage is many years  later than the Revolutionary period or the war of 1812. There are a couple of older threads by folks who built period appropriate carriages with lots of pictures. Hopefully you can find them with Search or folks will point them out.
 DD's right, you could use a naval carriage and save a bundle.
 
 
 
 

[Indygunworks]

I do not want a naval carraige, they just dont look NEAR as cool to me.  How should i title my search to look for the older style carraiges?
 
Any tips for the length of the trail?

[Cannon Cocker]

The period correct carriage would be the "grasshopper" carriage for the Verbruggen, and a split trail carriage for other light field guns.  However, there is always an argument for an earlier barrel on a later carriage because carriages deteriorated and guns where put on whatever current carriage was being used at the time of re-assembly.  Having an ordnance rifle on a split trail carriage...now that would be just WRONG, and almost impossible to have occurred.  Use key words like Grasshopper, split trail, and check out a book called Grasshoppers and Butterflies: The Light 3 Pounders of Pattison and Townshend, by Adrian B. Caruana

[Indygunworks]

The period correct carriage would be the "grasshopper" carriage for the Verbruggen, and a split trail carriage for other light field guns.  However, there is always an argument for an earlier barrel on a later carriage because carriages deteriorated and guns where put on whatever current carriage was being used at the time of re-assembly.  Having an ordnance rifle on a split trail carriage...now that would be just WRONG, and almost impossible to have occurred.  Use key words like Grasshopper, split trail, and check out a book called Grasshoppers and Butterflies: The Light 3 Pounders of Pattison and Townshend, by Adrian B. Caruana

I checked the local libraries and that book is not available.  I dont want to purchase the book as i am trying to do this as much on a budget as i can.  but ill see what i can find.... a google image search of grasshopper cannon carraige brings up a couple ideas that i can work with.  I am going to be making my own iron as well heating it up and hammer forging it into shape on a piece of pine to get it close enough for my oak carraige.
 
again any idea for the length of the trail?  I need to know this to let the lumber guys know about how much i am going to need so i can get an idea how much its going to cost me for the wood, which will in turn give me an idea how much i can buy iron wise instead of making myself for the rest of the carraige.
 
6 foot? 5?

[Indygunworks]

Using the words split trail in the search engine provides no more pictures than what i already have saved to the cannon file on the computer.  so ANY more info someone can give me just to get me going in the right direction would be great.

[Cannon Cocker]

You need to decide what type of carriage (split trail or block trail at least) before anyone can give you any dimensions.  I wouldn't buy any wood till you do some more research.

[Cannon Cocker]

Here's a little more info

http://www.americanrevolution.org/artillery.html

[Double D]

Go here http://books.google.com/books/about/A_Treatise_of_Artillery.html?id=vylEAAAAYAAJ  and down load or buy a print on demand copy of  Muller's Treatise on Artillery.  you will find carriages in the book for just what you are asking.  You will have to scale the carriages yourself but Muller gives the ratios for you to work to.

[de_lok]

Here are a couple links to websites with interesting info and pictures of the type on cannon carriage you are inquiring about.............
 
http://www.museumandcollector.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&Itemid=55
 
This is a good one. ( Douglas, you may consider adding this one in the links section)
http://www.nps.gov/stri/upload/18th-Century-Artillery-Manual.pdf
 
 
Dewayne
 
 
 

[Double D]

That  NPS document has some good stuff in it....

[GGaskill]

You could also download a copy of Round Shot and Rammers (or buy one from South Bend Replicas) for American Revolution types.

[Zulu]

This carriage was based on a drawing in "Round Shot and Rammers".
It is a very good book.
 

[Indygunworks]

This carriage was based on a drawing in "Round Shot and Rammers".
It is a very good book.
 

How long is your trail?  And what did you use for the metal strapping on the cheeks and lower portions of the trail?

[Zulu]

Indygunworks,
The cheeks are 5' 6" long
wheels 36" diameter
barrel 36" long
flat strap 2" X 3/16"
Zulu
 


 

[Indygunworks]

Perfect!  I am going to try and go around 5 feet long and have a little bit of a steeper angle on the trail (if the lumber supplier is able to get pieces wide enough to allow me to make such an angle.
 
Would 1.5 inch's wide be thick and strong enough for the cheek/trails?  the reason i ask this is after they plane the wood down it will be 1/10 of an inch under 2 and i dont want to sand a tenth of an inch of metal so for the sake of time 1.5 inch's is alot easier, and i cannot find 3/16 flat stock in 1 3/4 widths.
 
How tall are your cheeks, as in they are 5' 6" long, 2 thick and x? wide?
 
How easy was the 3/16 flat stock to bend?  Did you have to heat it up first? 
 
What did you use for the cap squares, and what did you use for the piece the cap square slides over that the pin goes through to secure it?  I am thinking about finding some really thick lags and grinding them down and drilling a hole through it.

[Indygunworks]

Here are the wheels i am going to go w/  They will be 42 inch's tall (the tallest i feel like i can go w/out it looking disproportional) and will cost me, 173 dollars a piece WITH a metal bushing added for durability and extra strength.
 
http://www.customwagonwheels.com/heavy-duty-decorative-wagon-wheels.html
 
 
 
I know they are not true cannon wheels, but they are SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper.  they claim they will still support 200 pounds a piece which will be about 50 pounds total less than what the thing will weigh.  If i had to buy real cannon wheels i dont think i could EVER get the wifes permission to build this thing.
 
they will have a solid steel 1" axle that i am going to build a laminated box around.  I can cut the box at an angle like yours to make it appear to be angled but they will not be.
 
Hopefully i can do this w/out messing up the wood to bad and can stain an laquor the thing, if not i can always paint it.
 
Any other information you can give me on how you built your cairrage would be helpful.
 
I do plan on ordering roundshot and ramrods just so i can get some better guidance on drilling and lining my touch hole.

[Zulu]

Indygunworks,
The wheels look a little light.  How wide are they?
If they only are rated for 200 lbs each, I think you are pushing the weight limit way too much.  Are you considering recoil?
My side cheeks are 9" tall at the front.  I cut them out of a 12" wide board.
My personal opinion is that for a 260 lb., 46" long barrel, 1 1/2" cheeks are not wide enough.  It would ruin your day to go through this much work and have your carriage break in half.  It can really happen!
I bent the 3/16" strap cold.  It was not easy!
Do not use lag bolts to hold down capsquares.  The capsquare bolts need to go vertically through the cheeks and through the flat strap underneath.  Lag bolts can certainly fail.
The capsquares are made of  3/8" flat strap.  They are secured by  1/2" through bolts running vertically through the cheeks.  If you don't tie everything together, your carriage is subject to fail.
I hope I'm not scaring you too much, but there is a reason that a carriage cost a lot more than a barrel.
Zulu
 
Once again, my personal opinion is that 5' long cheeks are too short for a 46" barrel.

[Indygunworks]

Thanks, your personal opinion is highly regarded.  Lets say i make the trail 6 foot then.  I just dont want the thing to look short and long and take up more space than what it has to.
 
I am not worried about how hard the flat stock is to bend the stuff is cheap enough that if i mess it up i can order some new.  Would 1/8th be thick enough?  Sure would be easier to bend.
 
I guess if i have to go 2'' thick on the trails then i will just have to sand down the metal strapping to get it to work.  My lumber supplier says there is pretty much NO way to get 2 inches thick unless we laminate.  Would it be strong enough to laminate the trails on this style of cairrage?  If i can laminate then i can get whatever shape angle thickness and design i want for the trail.  I just need to know its going to be strong enough.
 
Would a 3/4 inch threaded rod, threaded and gorrilla glued through the cheeks work well for the locking piece for the cap squares?  I would just have to grind the top to make it work w/ a locking pin of some sort.   as of right now, my cap squares are cast from herns (havnt ordered them yet) and are 1/8th of an inch to large for my trunions.  I plan on using devcon steel epoxy and glass bedding the cap square to the trunion itself to take care of this gap.  Joel at hern seems to think this will work just fine, but then again he is the one selling me the cap squares.
 
The wheels are 1.5 inch's wide and rated at 200 pounds a piece.  I am just guessing that the retailer lists the weight at less than what it really is for liability reasons, so if you assume a 25 percent under rating, they they are good for 250 a piece.  500 total... half that weight is the barrel, and i am guessing my carraige will be around 100 pounds axle weight, does that not give me a large enough margin of error?  the bore is only 2 1/4 and the heaviest i will shoot however infrequently will be pool balls.  but mostly it will be just blanks.  If those wheels are not strong enough, then what about these?  They dont look nearly as correct, but they will support the weight and i believe they are under 600 for a pair, if i read it right, if not then they to are too expensive.  Or do you have another reccomendation for wheels that are good enough and at or less than 300 a piece.
 
here are the wheels
 
http://www.customwagonwheels.com/mountain-howitzer-wagon-wheels.html
 
 

 

[KABAR2]

Both style of wheels are wrong for an 18th century carraige the last link you gave shows an iron hubbed wheel these did not come about until some time in the 1860's  cannon wheels tend to be over built to absourb the wear and tear of travel due to poor roads and actual firing, the book recomended are the way to go look at actual cannon carraige makers for wheels if you want to do it correctly and not end up dissatified in the final product it may cost more but the end result will be worth it. cutting corners will give you something re-enactors called a farbism.........

[Double D]

You need to decide right if you need to get a carriage by Bubba-Leroy whipped out right now.

 Or, do you want to build something that is safe and strong as well as something that you will be proud to take out in public and show off.

 

[Indygunworks]

I understand where you guys are coming from, but 800 dollars a wheel pretty much means i dont get a cannon at all.  So its either find a way to get "close enough" (for me, not for reenactors) or dont build a thing.   How do these look, they came from a link listed in the stickies.
 
They are rated at 500 pounds a piece. have 12 fellows and are 2 inches wide.  the hubs might be a bit small at 7 3/4 by 6 1/2 but they at least look more appropriate and support the weight.
 

 

 

 

 

[Double D]

We also are not all that concerned about reenactors. 

We are worried about safety however.

The reason we point to original designs is they have safety features built in.  Lengths of trail and height of wheels all predetermined for stability and strength. Methods of assembly an especially attachment of things like capsquares and cross braching is critical..    You don't need to duplicate the design to be right.  But if you closely follow the engineering you will have a strong safe carriage. 

If you carriage doesn't look right and looks cobbled together, then it probably isn't right and not safe.  It also send a visual message that says hey look at me I don't have a clue about what i am doing.

Don't cut corners.

Here are the wheels I just bought for my Bowling ball Mortar replicate a British 8 inch siege mortar.  http://www.hansenwheel.com/store/wheels-repair/cannon-wheels-and-axles/scale-cannon-wheel.html.  The do not duplicate the wheels of a British traveling carriage but  they will work and look good.


For the record I am a widower and get away doing stuff like bringing carriage wheels into the living room.  If you have a spouse, you do this at your own risk. 



 

[Zulu]

I have a spouse.  She's cool!
Zulu
 

 

[de_lok]

I have a spouse.  She's cool!
Zulu
 

 

 
I envy you ZULU ! ! ! ! ha ha...................... A display like that at our house would surely get the "rollin pin" out................
Dewayne

[Indygunworks]

Here is a picture pretty close to what i want to do.  I believe they are similar wheels to what i have been looking at rated at 500 pounds a piece
 
http://www.amishwares.com/site/1504461/product/ATLEE-CANNON
 
 
This is the same barrel as what i am getting and i believe these wheels are 42 or 48 inchs but i am waiting on confirmation of that.
 

 
I will probably make the trail a bit longer and put a flatspot in the top, angle it downward, then angle it rearward again, thinking maybe 6 feet long, 6' 6" if i go tw/ 48 inch wheels.
 

[Double D]

That doesn't look that bad---build that and you will have a nice gun

[Cannon Cocker]

The last pictures of wheels you showed close ups of look much more like the period wheels than the two choices you showed before.  The last photo of the completed gun looks decent too, but I would try to extend the trail a little more both for  appearance and function.  I have seen correct full scale carriages break in half. 

When I couldn't find white oak thick enough even from custom hardwood suppliers, I looked up saw mills and found one 45 minutes away who cut my almost 3" thick planks on the spot while I waited, and it was less expensive than the lumber supply places that I would have had to laminate.

[Double D]

Good point about the trail needing to be longer, especially with this cannon having trunnions below the center line.  Cannons like this tend to jump more.