Tactical Shotgun

[jrfrmn]

Requesting opinions as for what size buckshot to use indoors and outdoors.

[Dee]

My personal favorite is #4 or #1 buck in 2 3/4" magnum. Indoors (house), low base bird shot.

[Swampman]

The smaller sizes give the best patterns.  I like #4 bird shot.

[Lloyd Smale]

Paterns dont mean much unless your hunting birds.I go with oo. Reason I do is i live in the north and in the winter if someones comming in my home there going to have some thick clothing on. 4 buck might still do it but i dont want to take a chance. Also i dont have kids left at home so overpenetration isnt a consern. Someone comes into my home univited  i want them on the floor period and nothing does that better then good old OO!! I do use 3 or 4 buck in the 20 but only beause the bigger bucks dont load well in them.

[Bugflipper]

 A buddy of mine shoots coyote for the DNR. They were getting some coyote running away wounded with 4 buck. They switched to 00. At range there just wasn't a lot of energy with the 4 buck. They would see them get peppered and keep on going. Coyotes aren't really that tough to kill. They probably died later but it was inhumane to keep on peppering them.


I have seen a fellow that was shot with 00 at 15 yards. He was wearing a tee shirt and flannel over it. All 9 Pellets stayed in the back of the tucked in tee shirt on the aft side. He would've went about 185. I switched to 000 the next day. A lot of folks are portly these days.

[jlwilliams]

Jeff Cooper recommended the #4 shot, but there are also countless experts to say it's 000 or 00 or whatever for whichever reason.  I have noticed that at most gun stores you have a really limited selection of buckshot.  Half a dozen versions of the same bird loads, and two boxes of one size buck shot and three types of slugs.   OK, I'm exaggerating...a little... but you get my point.   Your buckshot choices are often more limited by availability than anything.  At the distances you really use a shotgun defensively, any buck shot load will be devastating.  Does #4 have this advantage?  Does 000 have another?  Sure.  If the place you buy your shells carries 00, then availability trumps any other advantage.
 
  I came to that above conclusion after reading all sorts of stuff in print and online about defensive buckshot selection, then going to a few stores and finding only one choice for locally available buck shot.  I was a little disappointed after all that thinking about the choices, but at least I got some shells.

[FPH]

Local SWAT teams (public & Military) recommend #4.

[SharonAnne]

back in the early 80s I and a few others were just getting into 3 Gun competition. We bought buckshot by the case (250) at a time. After burning up a few thousand rounds we settled on two sizes in various loads. 00B and #1B gave the best patterns at all ranges. My preference went to the #1B short magnum.  It carried 20 pellets with a total weight of 810grs. the most of any 2 3/4" shell.

After much study we stayed away from the #4B because each pellet carried just too little power. At 20.7gr and 0.24" diameter it has less power than a .25 caliber pistol round and these are seldom considered adequate for defense.

A one ounce shotgun slug is usually considered  a devastating load at 437gr.  A 00B 9 pellet load is 484gr.  The 12 pellet 00B is 645gr. Each pellet is 0.33".

The standard 16 pellet #1B load is 648gr of 0.300" pellets. If you can find them the short magnum #1B at 20 pellets is 810gr. Yes it kicks more but it hits harder also.

Just my feedback from our testing through all chokes we could find. The standard 00B is no slouch by any standard. Each of the other 00B and #1B loads just get better. IMO

[Dixie Dude]

I was with some guys and one guys sister hunting one time.  We surrounded several acres, about 100 on the land we had permission to hunt to run the deer out with dogs.  This friend of mine was on his stand on a powerline ROW.  His sister next to him an estimated 50-75 yards away.  A deer ran out between the two.  He turned to shoot it but pulled up because he knew his sister was on the other side.  She didn't think, and turned and shot the deer with #1 buck.  She killed the deer, but two pellets went over the deer, and one hit my friends gunstock and broke it.  The other hit him in the lower arm and broke a bone.  The measured the distance and it was right at 70 yards.  So #1B very good out to 75 yards or so.  I would recommend it over 00 or 000 buck.  At close range it will go through coats.  12-20 shots ain't kidding.  5 20 shot magnums is 100 rounds down range.  More than an assault rifle.  If you have an extended 8 round tube, that is 160 shots down range.  That is more than 5 30 round magazines.  Finding #1 buck is or can be a problem, especially by the case. 
 
For a tactical shotgun, I would recommend one brand, with multiple barrels.  A short 20" barrel with extended magazine for home use.  Take the magazine extension off, and go back to standard with a longer barrel for various bird hunting.  Maybe buy a rifled barrel for slugs.  Best value would be either an 870 or 11-87 Remington.  A Mossburg pump might do the trick also.  With the pumps you can take the stock off and put a pistol grip on for your tactical shotgun, maybe a folding stock if you want to aim. 
 
Also, #1 buck is 30 caliber. 

[SharonAnne]

30 caliber is 0.300"

[Dixie Dude]

Yep, #1 buck is .30"
0 buck is .32"
00 buck is .33"
000 buck is .36"
#2 is .27"
#3 is .25"
#4 is .24"
The smaller diameter buckshot will not carry as far and hit as hard.  #1 offers more pellets with at least 50-75 yard penetration performance. 
 
The disadvantage of a shotgun  for in home defence is even with a cylinder bore, skeet, or improved cylinder you are still only going to spread about 8" at 7 yards.  IC spreads 30" at 20 yards, modified 30" at 30 yards, full 30" at 40 yards.  Very short ranges it will not spread much contrary to what some may think.  IF we could have shorter barrels than 18" or 20" we might could get a wider spread in a room length shot. 

[jlwilliams]

 
The disadvantage of a shotgun  for in home defence is even with a cylinder bore, skeet, or improved cylinder you are still only going to spread about 8" at 7 yards.  IC spreads 30" at 20 yards, modified 30" at 30 yards, full 30" at 40 yards.  Very short ranges it will not spread much contrary to what some may think.  IF we could have shorter barrels than 18" or 20" we might could get a wider spread in a room length shot.

  That's why both Remington and Mossberg offer factory short barreled versions for law enforcement.  While it is possible for a civilian tog et a registered SBS, that's a little outside the realm of what most people will go through for a defensive shotgun.  I just mention it because your right, a little less barrel makes for an almost perfect inside a room range shotgun.  IIRC both Mossberg and Remington's factory SBS are right around 14" barrels.

[Lloyd Smale]

and the only reason is there conserned with overpenetration with bigger buck.

Local SWAT teams (public & Military) recommend #4.

[SHOOTALL]

I know this flys in the face of much of this conversation but why get wrapped up in spread ? First the shotgun delivers power to the target thru. multi strikes at the same time. The point is not to spray and pray but in fact to try and deliver the entire load center of mass. That is why in a defense role the shotgun is limited to say under 40 yards with a very good gun or less if the pattern has to much spread. But with in it's range threre are not many attackers who when hit in the center of the chest with an ounce or more lead traveling around 1200 fps who can continue their attack. In the house a load of #2 bird shot may indeed work but how does one know that an attack will remain in the home or for that matter will start in the home ? When an attack starts seldom will there be time to select a load . To be fair I load one short in my mag allowing the loading of a slug if time allows and need demands. All other shells are buckshot. My gun also sports a mod. choke tube as it delivers better (tighter ) patterns and also gives tighter groups with Foster slugs. NOTE EACH GUN WILL OR COULD BE DIFFERENT so check your gun.
 I feel this way because it makes way more sense to know where my shot will go and do my part to get it there over hoping that a big spread will hopefully have at least one or two hits.
 A 18 inch bbl works fine for me , I took a entry training class and tell you what I learned was simple . As a non police officer the only reason to enter a building looking for someone who could kill you is if a child or love one was in there and needed imediate help. Any other time wait for police with all the gear that helps. If in the home wait for the attacker to expose himself then take action don't make yourself a target by sneaking around . Know where you can safely shoot in your home . After passing thru. a bad guy and a couple walld buck shot has lost alot of go juice.
 bottom line best way to survive a gun fight is avoid it in the first place if not cheat !

[SharonAnne]

I do not recommend bird shot of any size. Each pellet has very little energy. If the shot has any chance to spread the chance of penetration is greatly reduced.

[Old Syko]

Here's what I use but when I got them they were a lot cheaper. 2 3/4" 12 ga. 15 pellet 00
http://www.paraklesetechnologies.com/proddetail.asp?prod=12GA1500275%2F25

[SHOOTALL]

I do not recommend bird shot of any size. Each pellet has very little energy. If the shot has any chance to spread the chance of penetration is greatly reduced.

+1

[cjclemens]

I have my home defense shotgun loaded with regular 7 1/2 shot. The whole point is that they lose energy quickly and do not penetrate several walls and potentially injure another occupant of the house or even a neighbor. I realize that it would be useless outdoors. However, indoors, range is pretty limited, and small shot is still gonna be effective in persuading a would-be intruder to vacate. If I thought for a second that I might get into a fight outdoors, I'd definitely switch up to 00 buck for energy retention.  But then, I'd probably want a longer barrel...and I'd probably use it to fight my way to the nearest rifle...

[Spanky]

I have my home defense shotgun loaded with regular 7 1/2 shot. The whole point is that they lose energy quickly and do not penetrate several walls and potentially injure another occupant of the house or even a neighbor. I realize that it would be useless outdoors. However, indoors, range is pretty limited, and small shot is still gonna be effective in persuading a would-be intruder to vacate. If I thought for a second that I might get into a fight outdoors, I'd definitely switch up to 00 buck for energy retention.  But then, I'd probably want a longer barrel...and I'd probably use it to fight my way to the nearest rifle...

 
I don't really think 7 1/2 shot would be the best for home defense. I want something that'll go through a heavy coat or several layers of clothing and knock the stuffing out of the bad guy. One thing to remember is that the bad guy is there for a reason... to do you and your family harm plain and simple. Are you gonna depend on birdshot to protect them? I wouldn't. I'll stick to 00 buck in my home defense shotgun... I know it'll work.
 
 
 
Spanky

[FPH]

I have my home defense shotgun loaded with regular 7 1/2 shot. The whole point is that they lose energy quickly and do not penetrate several walls and potentially injure another occupant of the house or even a neighbor. I realize that it would be useless outdoors. However, indoors, range is pretty limited, and small shot is still gonna be effective in persuading a would-be intruder to vacate. If I thought for a second that I might get into a fight outdoors, I'd definitely switch up to 00 buck for energy retention.  But then, I'd probably want a longer barrel...and I'd probably use it to fight my way to the nearest rifle...

 
I don't really think 7 1/2 shot would be the best for home defense. I want something that'll go through a heavy coat or several layers of clothing and knock the stuffing out of the bad guy. One thing to remember is that the bad guy is there for a reason... to do you and your family harm plain and simple. Are you gonna depend on birdshot to protect them? I wouldn't. I'll stick to 00 buck in my home defense shotgun... I know it'll work.
 
 
 
Spanky

You ever used 7 1/2 shot on sheet rock or a mobile home skin for that matter?  Impressive in what it will penetrate.

[cudatruck]

4 cylinder choke mossberg 18" barrels keep all 9 pellets of 00 buck in less than 6" circle at 10 yards. one rem 18" patterns at 8" and one 20" patterns at 7" all with the exact same loading. the 18" rem on a 870 shoots 8" patterns with any buckshot including #4 except it has two or three fliers but even those are within 18". After much expense and testing our home defense loads are low recoil 9 pellet 00 buck 2 3/4" shells fired from mossberg 500 with 18" barrel fitted with skeet flush choke tube. This combination gives all nine pellets in a 5" circle at 10 repeat 10 yards.( thats 30 feet) 10 yards is the absolute maximum distance in any of my family's 4 homes. at 7 feet they all go into one ugly hole. I am convinced we have made an educated choice knowing full well with any choice comes compromise. Bird shot is for BIRDS.
 
Most important, go pattern YOUR gun, see for yourself the very small impact area. A defensive shotgun must be aimed, NOT pointed.

[Spanky]

I have my home defense shotgun loaded with regular 7 1/2 shot. The whole point is that they lose energy quickly and do not penetrate several walls and potentially injure another occupant of the house or even a neighbor. I realize that it would be useless outdoors. However, indoors, range is pretty limited, and small shot is still gonna be effective in persuading a would-be intruder to vacate. If I thought for a second that I might get into a fight outdoors, I'd definitely switch up to 00 buck for energy retention.  But then, I'd probably want a longer barrel...and I'd probably use it to fight my way to the nearest rifle...

 
I don't really think 7 1/2 shot would be the best for home defense. I want something that'll go through a heavy coat or several layers of clothing and knock the stuffing out of the bad guy. One thing to remember is that the bad guy is there for a reason... to do you and your family harm plain and simple. Are you gonna depend on birdshot to protect them? I wouldn't. I'll stick to 00 buck in my home defense shotgun... I know it'll work.
 
 
 
Spanky

You ever used 7 1/2 shot on sheet rock or a mobile home skin for that matter?  Impressive in what it will penetrate.

 
Have you ever had a piece of sheetrock or mobile home skin break into your house all hopped up on meth trying to harm your family?? Like he said above... birdshot is for birds. I'll defend my home with something that will absolutely stop a bad guy.
 
 
 
Spanky

[cudatruck]

Thanks, Spanky, a voice of rationality.

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry but i wont even use 7 1/2 shot on grouse or rabbits. Ive seen to many cripples with it. Even my bird shot is at least 6 shot and i wouldnt even consider ANY shot smaller then 4 buck for protecting my family. At least not unless i could be guaranteed all the intruders comming through the door were 100 lb soaking wet and naked and were armed with just a club or knife so i could at least get a couple shots on them before they got to me.

[Dee]

sorry but i wont even use 7 1/2 shot on grouse or rabbits. Ive seen to many cripples with it. Even my bird shot is at least 6 shot and i wouldnt even consider ANY shot smaller then 4 buck for protecting my family. At least not unless i could be guaranteed all the intruders comming through the door were 100 lb soaking wet and naked and were armed with just a club or knife so i could at least get a couple shots on them before they got to me.

Lloyd, just for information purposes. Step off the biggest room in you house (allow for the funiture), then get a scrap piece of plywood, or sheet rock, and shoot it at that distance with #6 birdshot. Just for information purposes.

[mcwoodduck]

sorry but i wont even use 7 1/2 shot on grouse or rabbits. Ive seen to many cripples with it. Even my bird shot is at least 6 shot and i wouldnt even consider ANY shot smaller then 4 buck for protecting my family. At least not unless i could be guaranteed all the intruders comming through the door were 100 lb soaking wet and naked and were armed with just a club or knife so i could at least get a couple shots on them before they got to me.

Lloyd, just for information purposes. Step off the biggest room in you house (allow for the funiture), then get a scrap piece of plywood, or sheet rock, and shoot it at that distance with #6 birdshot. Just for information purposes.

I did this.
I took 7.5 shot shells out to the range and took two 2X4 and nailed up a pair of sheet rock.  Stood 15 feet away and let a round fly through a water melon and the water mellon diapeared and the sheet rock had a hole in one side and did not come out the other.  But try it your self

[Dixie Dude]

Best way to practice bird hunting is to shoot skeet, trap, and sporting clays.  That helped me tremendously.  Average dove hunter in America shoots around 20 rounds for every bird they kill.  My son and I practiced during off season.  We got 5 dove with 7 shots.  Not too many flying that particular day, especially within range.  We use #7.5 and 8 shot on squirrels, rabbits, quail, and dove.  Maybe the mammals down south don't have as much fur, but #6 shot tears up a squirrel or rabbit to me.  Maybe we just get closer.  Next step up for us is #4 for Turkey.  We also can't hunt deer with buckshot unless running dogs.  Slugs only for still or stalk hunting. 
 
At 15 feet, how big was the pattern on the sheetrock?  Kind of small wouldn't you say?  Shotguns don't open up the patterns good until 15-20 yards even with cylinder bore. 

[Dixie Dude]

We got a 36" roll of paper and made a pattern board.  We tested all our chokes at 20,30, and 40 yards. 
 
The open chokes like cylinder bore, skeet, and improved cylinder did very well on 20 yards, further out they opened up too much and would have gaps to miss the smaller birds.
 
Light mod, and mod did better at 30 yards.  Little tight at 20, and little open to much at 40.
 
Improved mod and full did better at 40 yds.  closer they stayed together too much.  at 20 it blew a hole in the paper and only a few flyers around it. 
 
We used # 8 shot to test.  Upon conclusion, the light mod did best all round on sporting clays.  Cylinder, skeet, or improved cylinder did best at skeet.  Trap did best on mod, or maybe light mod.  Some sporting clays were at a distance and we changed chokes, some were very close, and we would use IC.  80% of shots the light mod was fine. 
 
So, inside a house, the shortest legal barrel with the most open choke is best, no matter what you shoot.  Outside at yard distance it still works ok, because at that point you are not hunting. 
 

[cudatruck]

Mcwoodduck, repeat that test but miss the watermelon. your shot will go through the wall, at least mine did. try it at less distance and you get even more penetration. so, our conclusion when faced with FACTS birdshot is only very slightly less likely to WOUND someone but VERY less likely to STOP a bad guy. There is absolutely no "safe" ammo to be used indoors. I had a very nice lady at a local gun store two weeks ago inform me i should not use a pistol for home defense but instead should use a shotgun loaded with birdshot. I asked where she learned this. She answered some expert told her so. I then asked if she had done any testing of her own. She replied "no". Reguritating someone else's advice with no practical knowledge. I simply told her thank you for the advice but i will continue to trust my eyes more than my ears.

[Dee]

sorry but i wont even use 7 1/2 shot on grouse or rabbits. Ive seen to many cripples with it. Even my bird shot is at least 6 shot and i wouldnt even consider ANY shot smaller then 4 buck for protecting my family. At least not unless i could be guaranteed all the intruders comming through the door were 100 lb soaking wet and naked and were armed with just a club or knife so i could at least get a couple shots on them before they got to me.

Lloyd, just for information purposes. Step off the biggest room in you house (allow for the funiture), then get a scrap piece of plywood, or sheet rock, and shoot it at that distance with #6 birdshot. Just for information purposes.

I did this.
I took 7.5 shot shells out to the range and took two 2X4 and nailed up a pair of sheet rock.  Stood 15 feet away and let a round fly through a water melon and the water mellon diapeared and the sheet rock had a hole in one side and did not come out the other.  But try it your self

Duck, I think you and a couple others get my point. Sometimes what one thinks, is not at all the way it is. They read too much. I have seen numerous men shot at "room distances" with bird shot. To say that the damage to that person was awful doesn't fully describe it. In every case it was devastating and most times fatal right there, or very shortly there after. In every case, the problem was solved immediately.
I would never turn a round loose in my home that would shoot thru walls if there was an alternative that was just as effective. It's something you just can't take back, and it is something that one owes to other family members, and neighbors.
Man is the thinnest skinned animal on the planet, and deer rounds aren't necessary in the home to stop him, and I don't care what kind of drug he's on. I saw this demonstrated by others in "real life" many, many times. A shotgun at room distance is an awful thing to see, and it's a "right now" fight stopper, and you don't need buckshot at that distance. You will need someone to clean up the mess however, and it will be a mess. Every time.