Tactical Shotgun

[mcwoodduck]

Mcwoodduck, repeat that test but miss the watermelon. your shot will go through the wall, at least mine did. try it at less distance and you get even more penetration. so, our conclusion when faced with FACTS birdshot is only very slightly less likely to WOUND someone but VERY less likely to STOP a bad guy. There is absolutely no "safe" ammo to be used indoors. I had a very nice lady at a local gun store two weeks ago inform me i should not use a pistol for home defense but instead should use a shotgun loaded with birdshot. I asked where she learned this. She answered some expert told her so. I then asked if she had done any testing of her own. She replied "no". Reguritating someone else's advice with no practical knowledge. I simply told her thank you for the advice but i will continue to trust my eyes more than my ears.

Ok,
 everyone has a different idea of what will work based on their experience.  When I moved to CA I was in the Buck shot corner.
One of the local gun shops I went to talked about 1 1/8 ounce target loads as the best home defence.  And I asked how.
He said simply at 20 feet if you shoot a steak with buck you will have 9  32 to 33 caliber holes in that steak.  If you shoot a load of 7.5 shot you will have 400+ small pellets that will turn that same steak into hamberger.  and no matter what a good doctor cna not turn hamberger back into a steak.  he also said that they 7.5 is safer as the shot will not go through the wall into the next room with a lot of pellets.  I went out to test that.  i shot my trap loads, buck shot and slugs at the double row of wall board.  buck sailed right through.  Slugs kept going and only a few pellets made it through the boards.   

[Lloyd Smale]

dee i sure wouldnt want to get shot by it but do the same with 00 and see what happens. Ive shot 25acp hollow points into 1/2 plywood to show people that it will do better then they think but plywood doesnt shoot back and im not protecting my home with a 25 either.  keep in mind that to drop someone, and thats the purpose of shooting them, a nasty flesh wound is going to cut it. You have to put enough pellets in the central nervous system to do it. Now most who shoot a shotgun shoot center of mass and that means you have to get pentration through the chest and all the way to the spine and i sure wouldnt want to rely on fineshot to do that. Shoot them in the face and its a differnt matter but your asking alot to do that under pressure. Also like I said i dont live in the south where someones comming in my home in a tee shirt. right now its 4 about zero and anyone stupid enough to be out there has a few layers of clothes on. Now make that same fineshot not only have to penetrate a heavy jacket a flannel shirt and long johns and then go all the way through the chest cavity and then to the spine. I sure doubt its going to happen. I could be wrong as im sure not a ballistics expert and dont have the experience you do as a police officer but i sure wouldnt risk my familys lives on a load of fineshot when theres buck on the shelf. Shoot them with 00 and they stay shot.

sorry but i wont even use 7 1/2 shot on grouse or rabbits. Ive seen to many cripples with it. Even my bird shot is at least 6 shot and i wouldnt even consider ANY shot smaller then 4 buck for protecting my family. At least not unless i could be guaranteed all the intruders comming through the door were 100 lb soaking wet and naked and were armed with just a club or knife so i could at least get a couple shots on them before they got to me.

Lloyd, just for information purposes. Step off the biggest room in you house (allow for the funiture), then get a scrap piece of plywood, or sheet rock, and shoot it at that distance with #6 birdshot. Just for information purposes.

[Lloyd Smale]

Id bet too that if i made a post saying i was going to go hunt deer with a 12 guage using 6 shot and promised id keep the max range to 10 yard id get a lineup of guys saying i was inhumane or a slob hunter. Personaly id never do that either but id sure feel safer facing a 100lb whitetail then a 200 lb armed intruder. Ill admit here ive shot deer with #4 buck out of a 20 a couple times at ranges from 15-25 yards and sure wasnt impressed with the quick kills i got from that. Shot enough too with 12 guage 00 to know it puts a much bigger smack on them.

[Dee]

What ever you say Lloyd. It was a suggestion, not a mandate.

[jlwilliams]

  This thread brings something I see as among the shotgun's great benefits.  The fact that you can hunt, shoot trap and sporting clays and so on, and that you can shoot them without the same sort of backstop you need for rifle shooting, means that you can get really familiar with and confident with your shotgun.  I 'm reading lots of different opinions all based on what this one has tried and what that one has seen.  Of course we don't all agree.  That's fine.  I think it was Patton who said that if everyone agrees, someone isn't thinking.  Fact is, even though 'defensive' shotgunning isn't the same as trap, if trap has given you the confidence that you can hit what you need to then you are a step ahead of where you would be with a handgun that you haven't shot in five years.
 
  Kind of a digression.  The topic being shot choice.  I just re read the thread and it made me think about the built in advantage shotguns have.  There are more places where you can shoot them than most other  firearms.  More shooting (hopefully) means better shooting and it means more confidence with your most shot firearm.  More confidence means better performance under pressure, which means increased survivability. 

[Dee]

I would agree with most every thing you said jlwilliams. My point was to get someone to step outside their individual box, and look at something they may not realize, as they have never needed to realize it. On the other hand, they may not have wanted the information, I may have overstepped my bounds with my past experience, and training.
I suppose what I should have "suggested", was to shoot the plywood at a room distance, say 10 to 15 feet, with the bird shot, and then duplicate the exercise with their preferred buckshot load. They might learn something they didn't know. But on the other hand, if they choose not to, then they have limited themselves voluntarily, and are satisfied with what they know.
With that said, I think it is time I divested myself of this particular thread, as I have nothing really left to add.

[FPH]

I would agree with most every thing you said jlwilliams. My point was to get someone to step outside their individual box, and look at something they may not realize, as they have never needed to realize it. On the other hand, they may not have wanted the information, I may have overstepped my bounds with my past experience, and training.
I suppose what I should have "suggested", was to shoot the plywood at a room distance, say 10 to 15 feet, with the bird shot, and then duplicate the exercise with their preferred buckshot load. They might learn something they didn't know. But on the other hand, if they choose not to, then they have limited themselves voluntarily, and are satisfied with what they know.
With that said, I think it is time I divested myself of this particular thread, as I have nothing really left to add.

I have used bird shot at about 10 '.  It  leaves one large hole.  I use to keep a loaded shotgun in my room when I lived  in a trailer house in college.  It was loaded with bird shot.  Not so much for buglers, but to shoot a whole in the exterior large enough to crawl through in case of a fire(I hate fires).  I would have no problem with Lloyd shooting a deer at 10' with a shotgun.  The bird shot produces one large whole.

[cjclemens]

I think the longest shot I Can make in my house is a whopping 50 feet, and there's only one shot that far. The rest are like 20 feet max. The whole point of a home defense round is to stop/deter an intruder, while minimizing collateral damage and danger to others. Stopping the intruder means wounding or simply deterring. I don't care if it kills or not. Seriously who's gonna keep pressing the attack with a face full of pellets? I fully understand its not practical for use outdoors, but I have other tools for that job. Try shooting something at 20 feet with a good target load. If you're not convinced, keep using buckshot by all means. I don't think you need to turn someone's guts into soup just to stop em from robbing the place - especially when it puts bystanders at risk.

[SHOOTALL]

So in the end each will load as they see fit. some with as light a load as they feel will get the job done and others will load for worst case .  It's about the same debate as others where power is debated . One thing is for sure when shot placement is critical it is better to error with a bigger more powerful round/load where pratical. We can debate the effectiveness of shots in our homes but in an emg. can we know in advance the attack and our responce will be contained in our home or spill outside ? Do we know in this day and time if we will be attacked by one or a mob ? Five home invaders have entered homes arounf here. Some attacked in the yard and in one case a wife fired at the attackers out side. We really never know what we will face. I like to be ready for worst case myself but I live where I don't have others to close.
 How big a problem are stray bullets anyway ? Well here in Richmond there are years where we have shootings everyday and there have been many people shot by stray bullets so as Dee and others note it needs to be adressed . There may be merit in using bird shot or maybe a 223 HP or maybe a handgun with safety rounds . Each of us will need to decide for ourselves.

[cjclemens]

I think it's good that people have differing opinions on topics like this one. It gives the OP a variety of view points to consider when making their own decision. I just hate it when these threads turn into I an "I'm right, you're wrong" kinda argument. It should be an open-minded discussion. Even if we don't find common ground, we should all be able to respectfully disagree.

Anyway - back to the topic at hand... When I think about personal defense, I think about the most likely scenario that might occur. Where I live, that's probably gonna be some random meth head tryin to kick in the door or break a window in the middle of the night. I'm not saying I couldn't end up getting into a firefight with a whole gang, or even a horde of zombies...it's just not likely. Either way, I still have tools for that situation. You can't be prepared for everything, so I say prepare for what's most likely.

[mcwoodduck]

I think it's good that people have differing opinions on topics like this one. It gives the OP a variety of view points to consider when making their own decision. I just hate it when these threads turn into I an "I'm right, you're wrong" kinda argument. It should be an open-minded discussion. Even if we don't find common ground, we should all be able to respectfully disagree.

Anyway - back to the topic at hand... When I think about personal defense, I think about the most likely scenario that might occur. Where I live, that's probably gonna be some random meth head tryin to kick in the door or break a window in the middle of the night. I'm not saying I couldn't end up getting into a firefight with a whole gang, or even a horde of zombies...it's just not likely. Either way, I still have tools for that situation. You can't be prepared for everything, so I say prepare for what's most likely.

Again the post was that they want to take away our options and leave you with only a scatter gun.  At what point do they take the semi auto shotguns saying that a shotgun is so powerful that you only need two shots. 

[Lloyd Smale]

no need to get angry over this. I was just giving my opinion as were you. I respect your opinion but it isnt changing mine. Ive never seen a human shot with fineshot at any distance and to be honest never have even seen one shot with buck but i have saw animals shot with both and know theres a big differnce in how quickly they kill. I guess to me in a home invasion i want no chance at all that someone is going to last even long enough to squeeze off one round that could hit my wife or grandkids. I wouldnt consider putting away a 357 revolver in favor of a 22 semi auto handgun that would put more but smaller holes in my target and i guess i feel the same about how my shotgun is loaded. You want honesty? Ive got 3 shotguns in the house in differnt places. ALL ARE loaded with a slug in the chamber and buck in the magazines. I want my first round to knock the cork out of something and NOTHING says it better then a 12 guage slug. At in home ranges theres not much advantage to even buck for aiming as it doesnt get much of a chance to open up anyway. If your going to miss with a slug your probably going to miss with buck. But please dee dont take this personal. It sure wasnt meant as a personal attack on you or to question your real world experience. Like ive said before you are one on here that i do respect opinions from. I may not agree with all of them but theres sure things to learn from you.

What ever you say Lloyd. It was a suggestion, not a mandate.

[SHOOTALL]

I once cleaned a deer shot with #6 shot . It had been shot by a group of rabbit hunters . It came past my dad who shot it with a 30 -30 and killed it. Although I did not see the shot close enough to say how far the deer was from the shooter it was close enough that the liver was full of shot and the area around it had none. Dad said the deer was "getting it " as it came by. I did see the rabbit hunters and they were at least 150 yards from dad. I have also seen a guy get a #6 high brass confused with his buckshot and kill a deer with it at 20 or so yards . Then there was a picture of a woman who had been shot in the head with buckshot from a 12 ga at close range . She lived for several hours , though she was no longer a threat. Point is nothing is 100% . You make your choice and take your chance. Of course you can leave your magazine a shell short and load a more lethal buck or slug if needed .