Author Topic: Raging Bull .454 Casull, my experience and request for help (Read 2046 times)

oldprofessor · « **on:** February 16, 2004, 11:08:04 AM »

I have a .454 Casull with 5in barrel. It is my fly fishing, berry picking, walking in the woods of SE Alaska gun so I wanted it short and portable. I have shot close to a thousand rounds through it in the past few months and here's what I have learned: 1) recoil will always rattle your teeth with full house loads but it can be tamed if the handle can be made to fit your hand. I used a dremmel sander to form the soft rubber grip for a custom fit for my smallish hands and now it does not break my hand like it did when it was too large. 2) I practice with wussy loads of 260gr SWC/9gr Unique and it's a soft shooting practice round but I have an intolerable (15%) rate of misfires (with CCI 400 primers) when shooting DA. It will fire 100% when shooting SA. I consider the misfiring to be the fault of the gun but cannot complain to Taurus because their literature clearly states that using handloads is not recommended. I have had no misfires when using factory amunition. Since this revolver is for bear protection, if I ever need it for real it will likely be rapid fire DA and that is why I practice shooting DA rather than SA. 3) The factory sights disappear in the dark, dense rain forest. I am in need of aftermarket sights that are more visible. Can anyone recommend a source for sights? 4) I have a couple of holsters from Uncle Mike's and have modified one to fit comfortably across my chest but I do not like the way the belt holster carries the gun. Can anyone recommend a source for a good leather holster for this revolver? Thanks

DirtyHarry · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2004, 11:15:01 PM »

First Welcome to Graybeard Outdoors

On the misfired rounds are the primers dimpled at all or is the firing pin not striking? If the primers are acceptably dimpled I would try another brand or at least another run of the same. I fire my RB 454 in rapid DA just as you do and basicly for the same reason, and I have had no misfires with either factory or hand load ammo.
I am not real sure about the sights,maybe someone else will jump in on that.
The holster seems to fall under the same catagory as grips for the taurus line, nobody is doing much in the way of holsters directed specifically towards Taurus.

unspellable · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2004, 02:34:01 AM »

You are probably have more than one effect going here.

Since the handloads misfire and factory loads don't, the handloads are suspect. Since they misfire only in double action mode, the primers are not getting whacked hard enough. (See below) Are they properly seated? have you tried other brands?

But if it's a borderline situation, the main spring may not be quite up to snuff.

It is a characteristic of any double action revolver that it will not whack the primer quite as hard in self cocking mode as it does in manual cocking mode. If you look closely you will see that in self cocking mode the hammer does not come back quite so far as in manual cocking mode and so has a shorter swing. But the hammer should touch off any primer in either mode so this brings us back to the possibilty of a marginal main spring. (Some revolvers have an adjustment for main spring tension, don't know if the RB si one of them.)

oldprofessor · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2004, 04:51:31 AM »

Thank you for the well thought out replies. First, regarding the misfires all primers are well dimpled. I suspected that the problem had something to do with weaker hammer strike in DA cocking and you have confirmed my suspicions. I want to try another brand and/or lot of primers but I bought a box of 1,000 and still have a few hundred left. Being a stingy sob I am determined to use them all. I will check the strength of the spring and I hope my solution will be something simple like finding a stronger hammer spring.

I forgot to mention that one benefit of the misfires is that it gave me an indisputable reality check on whether or not I was flinching when firing the gun. I was (flinching) but am getting it almost under control. I started mixing my soft handloads in the cylinder with full power factory loads and since I did not know whether I was going to get hammered with recoil, a practice round, or a misfire, it really helped me gain control of the gun.

Your reply regarding the holster also confirmed my experience. I was hoping that somebody would have a source I had not uncovered. I like the style of the pacemaker holsters I have for other guns and may just buy some leather and make my own. That way it will fit my gun and my preference.

I am still looking for more visibility with the sights. Any recommendations?

Regards to all,
Dan

oldprofessor · « **Reply #4 on:** February 17, 2004, 05:05:38 AM »

The mainspring that determines the force of hammer strike is the spring that extends into the handle, right? I just removed the grip from my RB to look and do not see any way to make adjustments, short of adding shims. I am reluctant to attempt any modifications myself. I have already likely voided the warranty by firing handloads but I am hesitant to alter something as important as the mainspring. I will see if another brand of primers overcomes my misfire problem. After all, a box of primers is only a few dollars. If I need a new spring I'll take it to a gunsmith.

Thanks for your advice,
Dan

DropTheHammer · « **Reply #5 on:** February 17, 2004, 07:40:35 AM »

Check out these holsters:

http://www.pistolpackaging.com/

unspellable · « **Reply #6 on:** February 18, 2004, 02:26:28 AM »

The bit in the warantee about handloads is placed there by the legal department to cover their behind if you blow the gun apart with an overload. Don't worry about the warantee having been voided.

There are several possible causes for the problem, so don't do anything drastic until you have it sorted out.

Since you say the primers were well dimpled my first thought would be that they were not properly seated in the primer pocket. My second thought would be bum primers. As for seating, what are you using for brass? Some of the brass intended for ultra high performance revolver cartridges (In my case the 357 Super Mag.) is intended to take rifle primers and has a deeper pocket. If a pistol primer is seated flush, it's not seated on the bottom of the pocket and you may not get a clean whack against the anvil.

If you are using 454 brass, check the primer pocket depth and find out if it's supposed to take a rifle primer. Try some of your suspect primers in 45 Colt brass where you know the brass is meant to take a pistol primer.

If you have rifle primers in brass meant to take rifle primers keep in mind that rifle primers are made of stiffer stuff for the higher pressures and require a harder hit to go off than pistol primers do.

As a side issue, take a few empty cases and fill the primer hole flash with epoxy. For casual shooting load one of these in every cylinder full and rotate the cylinder a bit without looking at it before closing. This will do the trick for flinching when the ammo is working properly.

oldprofessor · « **Reply #7 on:** February 18, 2004, 04:27:34 AM »

Unspellable,

All good comments. I am recycling previously fired .454 production brass. This brass does have a deeper primer pocket and requires small rifle primers. I'm using CCI 400 small rifle primers as specified in the Speer manual. I can only assume that they are seated correctly. I seat them by hand with my RCBS rock chucker press and feel each one to ascertain that they are flush with the case base. I don't think they will seat any deeper. If they are not going deep enough it would indicate a brass/primer size mismatch and/or problem with my primer seating tool. I should probably consider using another brand (winchester) of primers.

I should experiment with different primers anyway since it is begining to look like I have a bum lot of primers. I was determined to use up these primers because I have to drive several miles to get reloading supplies. These primers were not in stock and I had to special order them, pay hazmat shipping, etc. and it will be a general pain and time delay to get replacements. Nevertheless, that seems to be the best move to start. I will get on the telephone today and track down a different lot/brand of primers. I may get lucky and report back with problem solved by this weekend.

I understand that the Taurus lawyers would want the "no reloads" clause in their warranty statement. I couldn't imagine owning this revolver (or any other) and only shooting factory ammunition. Besides the expense it limits use of these weapons to their full potential.

Dan

oldprofessor · « **Reply #8 on:** February 18, 2004, 11:23:37 AM »

I have plenty of time to play these days. I located a source of Winchester small rifle primers and drove to the store to pick them up this morning. I then handloaded 50 rounds of used Winchester .454 Casull cases and went to the woods to fire 50 rounds of Winchester-primed cases and 50 rounds with CCI primers. The results were that the Winchester primers "failed" at the same rate as did the CCI primers (not statistically significant). I could always make the misfired rounds fire by retstriking them with single action cocking. Inspection of the misfired primers showed dimples that were not any less deep than those of fired rounds. The firing pin is apparently penetrating the primer deep enough but not with sufficient force to fire 100% of the time. This seems to confirm that the misfiring I am experiencing is the fault of the revolver.

I guess I could try another priming tool. The only other handgun I currently reload for is a .44 magnum. After thousands of handloads I have yet to have a single misfire. Of course, the .44 mag uses magnum handgun primers, as compared to the small rifle primers required for the .454. This means that the reloading tool is set up differently for priming the different calibers and they can not be directly compared.

I have not tried shooting .45 cases since I have only shot .454 Casull with this weapon and do not have .45 Colt brass at hand.

In spite of my light handed remarks in this, and other, posts. These misfires are quite intolerable and I would like to solve the problem. I appreciate all suggestions thus far.

Dan

unspellable · « **Reply #9 on:** February 18, 2004, 11:48:31 AM »

It's beginning to sound as if you have a marginal main spring. If you decide that's the case, I'd see if Taurus will replace it. I wouldn't bother to say handloads to them, just say Winchester ammo since you tried Winchester primers in Winchester cases.

The main reason pistol primers are softer is that it's harder to get a good solid whack out of a pistol lock than it is with a rifle lock simply because the rifle is larger and allows more room to play in.

I have a 454 RB that I have not gotten around to firing yet. Hope I don't have the same problem. I have a RB chambered in 45 Colt that has not dsiplayed this problem, but there we are talking pistol primers. I have a Dan Wesson 357 Super Mag that has no trouble with rifle primers.

Graybeard · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2004, 11:59:19 AM »

Since factory ammo does not give this problem and your reloads do regardless of primer brand I'm inclined to think the problem is NOT the gun but the reloads. More specifically I do not think you are seating the primers fully in all of your cases. The hammer is first having to finish seating the primer and then fire it and it is just not always able to do this.

I suggest you buy a cheap Lee AutoPrime and use it. I've loaded all of my ammo using one for something over 25 years. You have a more positive feel using it and can seat the primers properly.

A stronger main spring might fix it but since factory ammo also uses rifle primers and doesn't give the same problem I just don't think the gun is the problem.

GB

oldprofessor · « **Reply #11 on:** February 21, 2004, 11:00:54 AM »

Greybeard,

Thank you for your recommendation. I did buy an hand priming tool (Hornady) and have just finished priming 50 cases. I wish I could tell you that I finished loading those cases and that they all fired SA. I may, in fact be able to report that at a later date since they all have the "feel" that they are seated deeper than the others primed with my reloading press. When I run my finger over the rounds primed with the press they feel more flush with the base of the case.

Unfortunately, as I was depriming and resizing from my last firing session my press broke. It broke cleanly at the base where it was anchored to my bench. This was apparently no surprise to the folks at RCBS. They identified the break even before I described it. The good news is that they will replace the press upon receipt of the broken one. Bad news is that it will likely take a few weeks for the shipping and exchanging to occur.

So, I am left with the misfiring problem stilll unresolved. Or, it may be resolved with the hand priming tool, but we will not know the final analysis for awhile.

I had been reluctant to add a priming tool to my reloading bench because it adds one more step to the handloading process. This cartridge already requires four separate dies and, with tumbling and charging with powder, requires that each round is handled six times. Whereas, before, I was priming during the flaring step, priming separately makes seven steps required to load this round.

On a related note, I found a holster maker who is willing to create a custom leather holster for my revolver. His quoted price is $65 and his shop is only 50 miles from my home.

It is begining to look as though there are no aftermarket sights available for this model. Since I cannot see them (the factory sights) in low light conditions, or with dark backgrounds, I will either have to practice more instinctive shooting or add fluroscent paint.

Thanks again to Greybeard, Unspellable, and Dirty Harry for their help and suggestions. Drop the Hammer, I had seen the holsters you recommended but they were not what I was looking for. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Oldprofessor

Graybeard · « **Reply #12 on:** February 21, 2004, 11:54:37 AM »

What model of RCBS press do you have that broke? That's a real surprise and an even bigger one that it didn't surprise them. Most of us have been using one for 30-40 years with no problems that are old enough to have been around and loading that long.

GB

Catfish · « **Reply #13 on:** February 21, 2004, 03:29:32 PM »

I would recomand that you go with a mag. primer with the 9 grns. of powder. It`s very possible that your not getting any fire to the powder if it`s in the frount of the case. I load alot of Bullseye powder in plinking loads and always use mag. primers because of the very small volume of powder in the case.

oldprofessor · « **Reply #14 on:** February 22, 2004, 04:21:17 AM »

Greybeard,
I was using the entry level RCBS Partner press. Since it is so lightweight it apparently must be securely bolted to an inflexible surface. Mine was bolted to a 3/4" plywood workbench which allowed a bit of flexibility and it developed a fatigue crack over time. I am now on the lookout for a metal plate which I will affix to my bench and then bolt the new press to the plate -when the new press arrives.

Catfish,
This cartridge requires a small rifle primer to handle the higher pressures generated by this round. I assume that the rifle primers are also generating more ignition than do even magnum pistol primers. My problem is that the primers are not firing. I do get full ignition when the primers fire. I understand that the problem you suggest is common to reduced loads. Remember that this is a .454 Casull and even this reduced load is near the maximum load recommended for a .45 Colt.

Graybeard · « **Reply #15 on:** February 22, 2004, 06:19:01 AM »

The Partner press is made of aluminum not cast iron or steel like most presses. That also likely makes it weaker.

RCBS makes such a metal plate as you describe with holes drilled and tapped for most of their products to fit onto it plus the mounting holes already drilled.

GB

Pat Marlin · « **Reply #16 on:** February 25, 2004, 04:51:07 PM »

Ye oldprofessor,

I've got a Bull, and was told a gunsmith can take a Hi-ViZ sight and easily mill and drill it to fit the Raging Bull.

So that's what I'm gonna do. I don't know why they don't have one to fit, cause there's lots of Bulls around.

Cheers

oldprofessor · « **Reply #17 on:** March 07, 2004, 08:42:05 AM »

Thanks to all who responded with helpful hints and suggestions. I just returned from shooting and I am happy to report that I fired two hundred handloads double action with no (zero) misfires. My reloading press was apparently not seating the primers fully. The hand primer by Hornady will be used with all my reloading from now on.

Although I have handloaded thousands of rounds I am still only a begining handloader and I am appreciative of all advice. It is too easy to get into a rut and develop sloppy habits.

Pat Marlin, I contacted Hi Viz and they say they are interested in developing a sight for the Raging Bull. I would not be surprosed to see one available by summer.

I'd like to give the folks at RCBS an endorsement. My broken press was replaced with a new one by return UPS shipment. It arrived much sooner than expected and I am impressed by their willingness to stand by their product. I have drilled and tapped a steel plate and mounted the new press and plate to my bench. I hope this new one does not break :grin: .

357mag · « **Reply #18 on:** April 05, 2004, 06:46:10 AM »

I noticed that you kept saying you are seating your primers flush with the case head. Every manual I have read says to get the primer a couple thousandths below the head. This ensure that the anvil is seated into the primer and the primer is seated fully in the pocket. This maybe be your problem. If they are not hitting bottom then when the firing pin hits it has to finish seating the primer and this is absorbing the forcing and cushioning the impact causing them not to fire. When you run your finger over the case head you should feel the primer seated in a little bit. If you place the bottom of a caliper on the head with the depth feeler over the primer it should read about .002-.004. You may want to check this.

bgjohn · « **Reply #19 on:** April 05, 2004, 08:21:18 AM »

Try switching primers !
JM

zrifleman · « **Reply #20 on:** April 17, 2004, 10:25:46 PM »

I'm new to this forum but not new to shooting Taurus RB. Graybeard was right on about seating the primers deeper. However using CCI primers with hard cups is another part of the problem. Many shooters have problems with missfires using small rifle primers in 454, myself included. I went to Federal primers and no more problems. Federal has the softest primer cups---Winchester is almost as hard as CCI. This problem seems to occur more often with 454/revolver combo. Does this mean all these firearms are defective? I doubt it! The primer cups are too hard for this application.

oldprofessor · « **Reply #21 on:** April 18, 2004, 03:10:42 AM »

Since I started using the Hornady hand primer I have had no more misfires (over 500 rounds thus far). Now, my new problem is the occasional primer that flips as it enters the seating funnel and gets seated upside down

but I have learned to be more careful and watch as each primer moves toward the seating piston.

I am going through my annual spring shooting frenzy but will soon get little opportunity to shoot as the busy Arctic and Alaska season gets going.

Best wishes to all and thanks for all your suggestions.