Rifle Powders for 45LC / 454 Casull?

[RPRNY]

I have been looking and looking and come up remarkably empty handed. Nothing in Hornady 8th, Lyman 49, or Hodgdon.

I have been loading 45 Colt and 454 Casull with H110. But I wonder if that's the right approach in our Handi rifles?  H110 will be pretty high pressure and we have all that extra barrel, and potential burn time, being if not exactly wasted, then underutilized.

I know Hornady does a Leverevolution 225 gr FTX cartridge but the numbers don't look especially exciting and I wonder whether they are using Leverevolution powder in the load?

In any event, I am sure there will be a few folks here with views on and experience of using slower burning powders for these two rounds in our Handi rifles. I understand that the thinking is that straight - walled cases perform better with faster burning powders, presumably because they do not "contain" the initial burn like a bottleneck case would and therefore, slower powder is likely to be under burned or even displaced down the barrel. But with 20" of barrel and all that diameter, I have to believe that there is time for a full burn. Now maybe 4350 is not the way to go, but what about the somewhat faster Leverevolution or Varget for that matter?

As usual, your thoughts and experience are most welcome.

By the way, if anyone is interested in a good read on Old Timer hand loading, I recently found this link to the full volume (PDF) of Complete Guide to Handloading (1937) by Philip B Sharpe.  He was at least as involved as Keith in the development of the .357 Magnum and is an excellent writer. It is an interesting read from a time when the fascination with velocity had taken off but when the black powder age was not so far behind. The .38 Special, 30-40 Krag and Springfield Rifle are the cutting edge. There is a lot of lost wisdom in there, especially on cast bullets. In any event, here's the link, free-o-charge and a @ $45 value 

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerdog/generalstorage/pdfpublications/complete_guide_to_handloading%20-%20sharpe%20-%201937.pdf

[kynardsj]

Lilgun works wonders in both calibers. Go to www.hodgdon.com and check out their reloading section on those calibers. A lot of folks like H110 but I get about the same speed, better accuracy and lower pressure from Lilgun. I've loaded it in both calibers and now it is the only magnum pistol powder I use. In fact, Lilgun and Unique are all I buy anymore. Covers the whole power range for me. All this is JMHO.

[quickdtoo]

I'd be usin RL7 in the 45LC myself. 

Tim

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

[Ranch13]

4198 works pretty fair.
When you get into powders slower than 4198 and rl 7 they just don't burn as efficiently as they should. I can tell you that a full charge of 4064 will throw a 255 gr bullet at 1100 fps, but it will also hurl burning and unburnt powder kernels thru the  cover on a Chrony's lcd.

[rdlange]

I was 'told' 4198 would work, but have not tried it yet because I haven't called Hodgdon.  It's about the same speed as RL7 which gave me the idea, and I was it mentioned here.

http://forums.handloads.com/archive/forum_posts.asp?TID=12423&KW=4198+in+.454+

[RPRNY]

4198 works pretty fair.
When you get into powders slower than 4198 and rl 7 they just don't burn as efficiently as they should. I can tell you that a full charge of 4064 will throw a 255 gr bullet at 1100 fps, but it will also hurl burning and unburnt powder kernels thru the  cover on a Chrony's lcd.

Well, it looks like I'm not going to reinvent the wheel this week. 

110 works well for me, just had an itch and thought I'd check before scratchin'. Looks like this one is best left unscratched...

[Ranch13]

If you can get ahold of an older Cartridges of the World something like the 5th addition, in the back there is loading data from various powder co's. Imr specifically lists data for the 44 magnum with just about all of their powders. A person can extrapolate from there if you mind your P's and Q's and pay attention.

[cudatruck]

What about aa1680? it works pretty good in the .357 maximum.

[cwlongshot]

I have been loading top vel 45 Colt loads for over 20 years... Best results came from 296...

Reciently I have been shooting 4756 in some heavy 45 colts loads. Accuracy is very good, I have yet to chronograph them. But the powder meters like mud so unless vel is up there and consistant, I'll likely stop using it as its accuracy is no better then my H110/296 loads that have proven them selves over and over.

I have used RL7 and it works. I haven't tried AA1680 yet... unsure why I LOVE it in the Maxi...

CW

[gcrank1]

IMR 4227?

[cwlongshot]

IMR 4227?

H4227 was THE powder in my Herrett and its proven a good one in the 454/45Colt HVWTs too!!  How could I forget it!  The IMR while not interchageable, would be just as good I am sure.

CW

[Ranch13]

I never could get the accuracy from 4227 I was getting with other powders. Velocity was very good tho.
Don't overlook sr4759 and aa5744 either.

[Couger]

 
Riffle powder in a .45C riffle?
 
Everyone here has listed something I'd have thought of (RE7, 4759, AA5744, AA6180, 4198H & IMR, 4227H & IMR, LilGun) .....
 
What about TrailBoss?
 
And something as fast as BlueDot?

[Ranch13]

Bludot works well.
Trailboss is fine for CAS stuff, but not much velocity for something serious.

[RPRNY]

I have a nice 7.3 gr of Trail Boss under 185 cast for the 45LC. Pleasant. But again, Trail Boss is a relative fast burning powder, though some claim it's dirty. My thinking was a real mid range powder to benefit from the barrel length, but Ranch13 really got to the heart of the issue. 4064 is a good example of a mid range powder and it will apparently do the job, but the ejection of burning and unburnt powders seems to very much support the idea that at a certain point with a straight-wall case and carbine length barrel, slower burning delivers diminishing returns.

I did have a look in Sharpe's Guide ; of course the 44 Magnum hadn't been invented yet!  Looked up 45 Colt and everything he had was faster burning or no longer produced.

[Ranch13]

What the chronograph will generally show you is that in a rifle powders from unique and faster won't gain much and may actually loose a bit of velocity when from handgun data. Powders from bludot and slower will gain anywhere from 100-300 fps over the handgun data.

[gcrank1]

"Trail Boss is a relatively fast burning powder"; could be, but the difference between it and other relatively fast powders seems to be that it has lower pressures in comparable charge weights or even at 100% load density (thus Hodgdon's statement that at 100% you wont be overpressure for the cartridge). Now you wont get the high velocities that some want or require but you wont abuse you or gun either. Im using TB in even my bottleneck cases now with cast bullets.

[Doublebass73]

I've had good luck with IMR-4227 in the 45LC, especially with Sierra 300 grain JSP's.

[Couger]

 
ADDED:  Was looking at my Ken Water's "Pet Loads" .......
 
He did an article sometime back on the .45C in the M94 Trapper (16in) model.
 
 
 
Waters listed several loads worth looking at in HiSkorX700 & 800, and AA7 and AA9!
 
Most of the powders already listed would have have come close to what Waters listed.

[Joe S.]

Good thread. Subscribed

[RPRNY]

I have been doing a lot of reading on this. One of the statements that I keep coming across is that "Powders are designated [to specific loads] for cartridge, not barrel length". I have read both modern and old - Sharpe (1937) Mattern (1932) Keith (1943) - approaches to the issue and the picture I am getting is that whether metal jacket or cast bullet, straight walled cases perform best/most efficiently with relatively faster burning powders - and that seems to mean up to 4227 and even RL7, up to about 1.75" in case length, after which some of the mid-range (burn rate) powders seem to work well in cases like the 444 Marlin, 450 Marlin and 45-70. But at slower burn rates, lower chamber pressures and slower initial velocities lead to diminished overall velocities and incomplete/inefficient burns.

From a pyrolysis and combustion standpoint, this makes sense. Primer ignition, especially in shorter cases, will start the bullet into the barrel, especially in taper crimped straight wall cases, at the same time as ignition. With slower burning powders, the pressure zone (area between base of case and base of bullet) will lengthen more before full combustion of powder than with faster burning powders. So, slower burn means lower pressure (but in the case of straight walled cartridges - throughout the full combustion process) and less velocity. Depending on the powder's oxidizer consumption rate, in a carbine length barrel (16" - 20") this could lead to incomplete combustion.

I don't really understand why this is different for longer straight wall cartridges but I suspect it is because generally heavier bullet weights and denser/heavier powder charges diminish initial bullet travel from primer ignition thereby maintaining a more favorable pressure zone and allowing slightly faster combustion of slower burning powders. Also, there could be some thermolysis ( decomposition of powder into its gaseous components without immediate ignition) in denser/ heavier charges in longer straight walled cases that leads to more even and consistent combustion down the length of the barrel.

Theoretically then, provided the primer is sufficient to initiate self sustaining full combustion, the lightest primer that would do so would be best in a straight walled case as, in diminishing initial bullet travel and allowing powder combustion to take place in a smaller pressure zone, it would more efficiently (albeit at higher pressure) combust and deliver higher velocities.

This is all different for bottleneck cases as they contain both initial primer driven bullet travel and combustion due to the shoulder angles and more narrow pressure outlet (case neck). Sharper shoulders more so, thus the double benefit of increased capacity and burn efficiency from the AI cases.

Sorry, for my pyrolytic chemistry thinking out loud, but it was an interesting revelation for me.

[Ranch13]

It has a lot to do with burn characteristics , and efficiency.
But be aware the turn you are about to take is one that few if any fully understand. You  get into question like why do some powders slow down their burn rate when loaded in a straight walled case? 748 is a prime example of that, look at data sometime for it with the 405 , 45,70 etc,, same charge weight in even a gently slopeing bottleneck case would likely wreck a primer pocket...

[gcrank1]

The 'spread' between powders in the 'fast' and 'slow' categories is often not all that much and the peak pressure characteristics change with back pressure, ie, projectile weight, crimp, etc. as well as case capacity and primer type, ie, std vs mag.
The science of interior ballistics is just that and if you have never seen such, look up powder plant explosions. On a smaller scale we are doing just that in a 'controlled environment'. It is frightful what some people do by disregarding top data.
Ruger revolver and TC level loads should be fine in an H&R carbine. These are slow speed brick cartridges, if you want high speed needles get a different chambering.

[RPRNY]

Thanks for the input. I'm really not headed down to the lab to start working up some 4350 loads for my 454

I wasn't really looking into this from a "more velocity" perspective. H110 and the 250 gr FTX will give me as much velocity as I could want. What I was wondering is whether the slower burn rate and lower/later peak pressure from a slow burning powder could deliver the same velocity. And the answer looks a resounding, no.

My next area of investigation is breech seating. This is very counterintuitive to me, but the evidence is there from Scheutzen competitors in particular but also silhouette shooting that, done correctly, it is efficient and accurate. I need to understand it better.

Does anyone on here breech seat?  Only straight wall cases?  Any thoughts or comments?

[Ranch13]

I know a couple of shooters that breech seat, and one of them does so with a 44-90 bn. But he doesn't do it often.
 If you get ahold of a copy of Ned Roberts Schuetzen Rifle book he discusses breech seating and muzzle seating quite abit.

[gcrank1]

This pops up periodically......but here is 'pure' breech seating:
Breech seating is best done in a rifle chamber specifically done as a beech seat type. This has a groove dia. or slightly larger cylindrical throat with a cast bullet friendly leade to hold the breech seated bullet ahead of the case mouth. A variation on the cyl. 'throat' is a tapered one which a matching tapered cast bullet fits into (this is considered the best by more than a few).
The bullet is about .0005" smaller for the than the 'throat' for the cyl. version to facilitate easy beech seating with one of various tools.
As you can visualize, the bullet is held perfectly inline and concentric with the bore. When fired there is no transition of bullet from a case mouth through an unsupported void which can cause tipping or gas getting around the base band and causing cutting and leading.
The case is charged and often 'capped' with a card wad at the mouth to avoid spilling the powder, then inserted behind the bullet with anywhere from almost no clearance to 1/32 or even 1/16".
Often one one case is used, just decapped, recapped and charged, then card wad, load and go.

Now, with all that behind us, consider this as an alternative (and which I have done):
If your rifle has a real 'ball seat' as many modern cartridges do, or a straight or very minor taper at the chamber front as in possibly a 45C, etc. you may be able to breech seat a soft lead (it gets difficult with hard alloys) bullet of full throat dia. or .0005 less full up to the origin of rifling (note this is not the same dia you may be loading into the cases).
You most likely cannot get the case to chamber up behind this bullet unless that chamber is awfully long. But you can determine the max length and trim a case back to just clear the bullet base or up to 1/16" behind. Charge it, card or wax wad it (a sheet of wax about 1/8" thick can be pressed over the case mouth to 'seal her up'), load and shoot as above.
This is all a bit futzy, but is a leisurely and pleasant way to spend a nice afternoon.
Give it a go and report back  .

[RPRNY]

Thanks for that. I am familiar with the process, but not all the details.

As a child, I used to go over to an Old Timer's place near ours up in VT, he was in his 80s back in the early 1970's and as spry as one could imagine but had a full white beard a fair few gaps in his teeth and a lot of funny old sayings. He had an old Schuetzen rifle. I don't know in which caliber but it was fairly mild because I was allowed to shoot it and it didn't knock me about too much. In any event, he would breech seat and use two different cases, decapping, priming and charging one while we were shooting the other. It was a helluva good looking old rifle, straight out of Hansel & Gretel. The old fellow shot and ate plenty of deer and bear all winter in an old, old clapboard cape with no heating but the wood stoves. He'd shutoff all but the kitchen and the front room in the winter and keep a wood stove going in each. He'd known my grandparents well when they lived up there for a few years during the Depression much the same, no electricity, no insulation to speak of, just the fires to keep you from freezing and the kerosene lamps at night. Still the same now but we don't brave it in the Winter and we do have a loo inside now. Apparently when the crew arrived in 1935 to electrify the mountain my grandmother met them out on the road with her 30-30 (now  with my cousin) and said "We don't want the electrickery. And it'll never catch on up here!"  I'll never forget one of Mr. Tom's crackers. He said to us one day, 'well, when I was young, we et inside and went to the toilet outside. Now I notice all these young people up from the cities and such seem to do it t'other way around!'

I may will give breech seating a go. Need to look into the right cast bullet and such. I think it might be quite interesting with Trail Boss. But I suppose you could do reduced loads with almost any powder because the card wad is going to hold the powder in place and give you a consistent burn.

[gcrank1]

FWIW, I last used my 38-55 that way, but now have a soft bullet that finger fits the fully fire-formed case neck. I use Trail Boss and seat the bullet on top and just last week 50yd. offhand put one on top of the first and I pulled the third about 1" away. This summer I think I'll revisit the breech seat with soft cast again, but I am the weak link on offhand for sure.
Oh, offhand is the most convenient way, for me anyway, to use one of these 'tip up' action rifles breech seated, what with loading at the bench each shot and doing the breech seat process.

[David I.]

I've had real good success using AA#5 for 45LC in my Ruger handgun and my Chiappa 1892 lever gun. For many, many years I used Unique but have found AA#5 much cleaner burning and my partcular load is used for target and hunting.....plenty accurate too.
 There are quite a few loads listed in various loading manuals for AA#5 for 45LC from light to heavy. I would call my particlar chosen load to be moderate to just slightly heavy and can be used safely in both my guns.

[frgerald]

Check out Paco Kelley's comments on his website, leverguns.com.  He seems to think Reloader 7 has a lot to offer in the .45 LC.