Split Trail design, submitted for approval

[Indygunworks]

I spent quite a bit of time looking at the links and photo's from my other thread.  After putting everything together mixing them up, and putting my verion down on paper here is what i have ended up with.  The picture is the trail just a bit over 6 foot long.  I have it taped to the wall at the approx highth that it will end up being if i go w/ 48 inch wheels.  If i do go w/ that size wheel, i will have around 6 inches of wheel above the cannon barrel which seems to be pretty close.
 
In the picture is a handle to a swiffer.  its being held so the circle on the left will be in the same location as the cascabell on the barrel I will be getting.  Overall lenght is just two inches short but thats on the muzzle end.  Hopefully this pass's muster.  As of now i am still looking for 2 inch thick solid oak, but it seems that i am probably going to have to laminate.
 
Here are some specs of the barrel in case anyone has not read the other thread.
 
46" overall length
5 7/8" at muzzle
7 1/4" at breech
2 1/2" trunnion length
2 1/4" trunnion diameter
6 1/2" cheek space
23" center of trunnion to end of cascabel
260 lb weight


 
and my trail....  It is 12 inchs in highth in the flat area that will hook up to the axle, and 10 inch's on the rest of the trail. 
 

 
 
and a picture of the 48 inch wheel.
 

 

[Zulu]

Indy,
You are going to pay a premium for any board over 12" wide.
Stand your template flat on the floor and make sure it is less than 12" tall.  That way you ensure that it can be cut out of a board that is 12" wide.
Zulu

[Double D]

To get the angle right on the trail template you need to elevate the template so the axle center is 1/2 the diameter of the wheel.

Something in the back of my mind says the wheel diameter you are going for-47" is to tall.

[Indygunworks]

Its 18 inch's, and the template is at the lumber place but they were at lunch so we will see what they say later on today... i can always modify it to bring the cost down.

[Indygunworks]

To get the angle right on the trail template you need to elevate the template so the axle center is 1/2 the diameter of the wheel.

Something in the back of my mind says the wheel diameter you are going for-47" is to tall.

I taped it to the wall at 23.5 ( 41 inch wheel is a 21 inch center plus 2.5 inch's for the axle beam) and it felt really short, even my wife looked at it and said that it just looked goofy.
 
In that picture its taped at 26.5 for a 48 inch wheel.  plus 10 inch's for the cheeks (12 minus the cutout for the axle and the trunnion)  that put the barrel at 37ish inches off the ground.  leaving about 10 inches of wheel above the cannon, which seems pretty proportional to all of the photo's i have looked at. 
 
The only other thing i wasnt real sure about is how much wood to leave in front of the axle and trunnion.  I chose 6 inches because it left lots of room for the rod to pass through to hold the cap squares on.

[RocklockI]

IndyGW    , It looks good to me . I like twin trails especially the "grasshoppers, Gallopers, Butterflies ,whatever you want to call them .
 
Sorry I did not read the first post who made the barrel ?
 
Gary

[Double D]

Make some cardboard cutouts of barrel and wheels to be sure.

[Indygunworks]

Hern iron works is making the barrel. 

Still no quote on the laminated 6x18x2's  probably today or monday.

I do have a lead on two slabs of white oak, 3" thick 14 wide and 9 foot long kiln dried.  I can get both slabs for 200 bucks.  If i find a place that can cut them down to 2 inches thick for a reasonable price thats what i will go with.

Once i get my carboard template back  i will cut it up and make it so it will fit onto a 14 inch board and then retry my wheel sizes.  I think by loosing 4 inchs of drop on my angle w/ a 14 inch wide board instead of 18 that i will probably want to go w/ 42 inch wheels instead of 48, but we will see.    If all goes well i will probably be placing my orders tuesday.

[Double D]

You might also look for ash.  Strong wood used in carriage making.

[de_lok]

Hern iron works is making the barrel. 

Still no quote on the laminated 6x18x2's  probably today or monday.

I do have a lead on two slabs of white oak, 3" thick 14 wide and 9 foot long kiln dried.  I can get both slabs for 200 bucks.  If i find a place that can cut them down to 2 inches thick for a reasonable price thats what i will go with.

Once i get my carboard template back  i will cut it up and make it so it will fit onto a 14 inch board and then retry my wheel sizes.  I think by loosing 4 inchs of drop on my angle w/ a 14 inch wide board instead of 18 that i will probably want to go w/ 42 inch wheels instead of 48, but we will see.    If all goes well i will probably be placing my orders tuesday.

 
Indygunworks,
Your trunions are 2-1/2 in length, why not cut them (white oak slabs) down to 2-1/2 inches thick? Metal stock is readily available in 2.5 in widths and several thicknesses. It would be stronger and probably look better to. I have found a good picture of a lite 3 pdr cannon and carriage with a scale so it can be scaled up or down and make all parts match each other. If you PM me I will email it to you, I don't believe it is copyrighted but I will not post any material I'm not 100% sure of.......
 
There was no set standard on the scale of the Lite 3 pounder in the 18th century. Wheels ranged from 36 to 42 inch diameter, and barrels ranged from 36 to 54 inches in length. American artillary of that era were mostly copies of British and French guns, and as Zulu mentioned earlier Blacksmiths of the day used what worked best for them...........
 
 
Dewayne

[Indygunworks]

The reason for 2 inch's is mostly because i cannot find an affordable metal bending fixture that will handle anything over 2 inch's.  If you can point me to the direction to a sub 150 dollar bending fixture that will handle 2.5 inch 3/16th flat stock, then i am all ears.

[Indygunworks]

speaking of steel, which is easier to bend, hot rolled, or cold rolled?

[KABAR2]

speaking of steel, which is easier to bend, hot rolled, or cold rolled?

It's all easy to bend when it hot..... most of the iron on this is flat the parts that do need bending can be done hot with a good vice, hammer, anvil and tongs ......

[Indygunworks]

Its all a moot point now.  I found a fellow fireman (Indianapolis Fire Department) that has a blacksmith shop.  He is going to charge me a large chunk of change (250ish bucks) but we are going to knock out all of the metal bending/fabrication together.  He can help me make everything i need including cap squares.  So w/ that in mind i am going to go 2.5 inch's wide on the trails.
Here is a link to his site  http://www.intuitiveiron.com/About-Us.html 
 
I am getting the two 9 foot long 2.5 inch thick boards 14.5 wide delived for.....  FREE.  i loaned a buddy 200 dollars several years ago and he works at the mill now so he is getting this to me as repayment.
 
wheels are 500 delivered and together they support 1000 pounds together
 
barrel is 1100 delievered.
 
all said and done as of now i am looking at having this thing for less than 2k!
 
Thanks for all the help so far and i am sure i will still have plenty of questions.

[Zulu]

How are you cutting the 3" thick boards to 2 1/2"?
This will be a heavy carriage.
Zulu

[Indygunworks]

I will not be cutting them at all.... the mill that i am getting the wood from is going to plane them down for me. so i will get them 9 feet long 14.5 wide and 2.5 thick.
 
Are you implying that the carraige might be too heavy?

[Zulu]

I will not be cutting them at all.... the mill that i am getting the wood from is going to plane them down for me. so i will get them 9 feet long 14.5 wide and 2.5 thick.
 
Are you implying that the carraige might be too heavy?

Maybe not too heavy.  Just heavy.  2 1/2" side rails are heavy.
Zulu

[Zulu]

Here is another thought.
If your trunnions are 2 1/2" long and your side trails are 2 1/2" thick, this means you have no room for error with the spread of your side rails.
I have made over 50 cannon carriages.  Zero room for error is not something I would like to deal with.
The carriage will look best if the trunnion face is flush with the outside of the side rails.
Just a thought.
Zulu

[de_lok]

Here is another thought.
If your trunnions are 2 1/2" long and your side trails are 2 1/2" thick, this means you have no room for error with the spread of your side rails.
I have made over 50 cannon carriages.  Zero room for error is not something I would like to deal with.
The carriage will look best if the trunnion face is flush with the outside of the side rails.
Just a thought.
Zulu

 
Zulu,
If the cheek's are the same thickness as the length of the trunnions shouldn't the "error" be worked out in the parts (trail and breech spacers) that space them apart?
 
Most diy cannons I've seen like this space them equally as the math calculating compound angles and tool set-up can be difficult. This requires more fitting but they look better set at the correct angle.......

[Indygunworks]

I guess i am at another point of confusion brought up by zulu's post.  If i have the trails angled to they increase by 5 inch's in seperation, then the recess in the cheek will be at an angle, and the capsquares will also be at an angle.  Is this the no room for error you are refering to?  Is this not gotten around easily by using a 2 1/2 rod the same width as the trunions then everything would be correct, or is this the margin of error you are talking about where the cannon barrel and measurements i have been given are not perfect creating issues.
 
As soon as you thing you have everything figured out.......
 
With this being the case would it be better to wait on the metal work of the trails until i have the cannon barrel?  I was really hoping to start working on the carraige this month even though i wont have the barrel for a few weeks.

[Indygunworks]

Here are the measurements. 
 
 2 1/4" trunnion dia., 6 1/2" cheek spacing, and trunnion span of 11 1/2"
 
 
Could i not make a rod that matches those measurements, build my carraige around that.... that would allow me to get the carraige built, take it and get the metal work done and installed so when the barrel arrives it just drops into place. 
 
Having my trails angle outwards means the capsquares and trunnion plates have angles in the correct?  If thats the case then perhaps as a newb it would just be easier to have them go straight back, I have seen many split trails like that as well.  In fact zulu's is the only one i have seen that angles. (which looks awesome by the way)

[Double D]

Here are the measurements. 
 
 2 1/4" trunnion dia., 6 1/2" cheek spacing, and trunnion span of 11 1/2"
 
 
Could i not make a rod that matches those measurements, build my carraige around that.... that would allow me to get the carraige built, take it and get the metal work done and installed so when the barrel arrives it just drops into place. 
 
Having my trails angle outwards means the capsquares and trunnion plates have angles in the correct?  If thats the case then perhaps as a newb it would just be easier to have them go straight back, I have seen many split trails like that as well.  In fact zulu's is the only one i have seen that angles. (which looks awesome by the way)

You could indeed to that with the bar and you might indeed get lucky...

Combine that idea it leaving the angles out,  besides being an big rush and it is easier can you think of a good reason to do that.  Like I said you probably could get lucky. 

The originals had draft and were not parallel.  Ask your self why?  Why did they put that draft in if it was simpler- especially back then.

It s not lost on me that modern artillery often has split trails--its to resist movement and dampen-disburse recoil. 

It left out in modern renditions because the builders don't understand why it's there.

[de_lok]

Indygunworks,
 
Sounds like your starting to catch on, ha ha.................... . I'm sure Zulu's intention's are not to confuse, he is a very talented person. You can see many examples of his work at his website. His work is museum quality and akin to true art work. I know you want to get started right away, but you will thank yourself for taking the time to think and plan this out before you start spending $$$ and time making parts that don't work.................
 
 
 
 
 

[de_lok]

The originals had draft and were not parallel.

 
 
 
I believe you will find the draft is equal the included angle (taper) of the barrel it was designed for...............

[Indygunworks]

I do want the draft in this design.  I think it would look really goofy being 6.5 inch's apart the full length.
 
Not sure what you mean by might get lucky, I dont want to take a chance at getting lucky.  Does this mean wait on the barrel?  Besides measurements that i know are 100 percent correct its not like i can just test fit a 260 pount barrel at will.
 
Here is the next idea, not sure if its a good one.  If i can find some iron pipe thick enough that i can weld my trunion straps to, with a 2 1/4 inch ID then i can set my cheek spacing where it needs to be, and fit the cutouts in the cheeks w/ that bar.  After its fit then i can just weld my trunion straps to the pipe and cut the top off giving my the bottom cutout and trunion straps as one contiguous piece.  That wouldnt be leaving much up to change at all. 
 
For the record, i dont HAVE to be in a rush on any of this, but i dont want to wait any longer than i have to for no good reason.  I just want to understand what going slow and taking my time means and what i need to accomplish by it.  My metal work is going to be done by a VERY accomplished blacksmith who has tackled MUCH harder projects than this.
 
I guess i just need a bit more insight to the proccess and the other little things because it seems like i have a great grasp on the big things.

[Cannon Cocker]

Was just looking at the book I was telling you about (Grasshoppers and Butterflies) and the too examples of trails did not have the big bend in the cheeks that some of the bigger guns had.  In other words the bottom part of the cheek when looking at the side of it was one strait line from where it touches the ground at the tail, going up to the highest point.  Without the "bend" that you had in your cardboard template, you would not need as wide of a plank to cut from, and it would be more correct for a small barrel like you are using.  I don't like to post published pics, but here is a quick view to get the idea.

[de_lok]

Was just looking at the book I was telling you about (Grasshoppers and Butterflies) and the too examples of trails did not have the big bend in the cheeks that some of the bigger guns had.  In other words the bottom part of the cheek when looking at the side of it was one strait line from where it touches the ground at the tail, going up to the highest point.  Without the "bend" that you had in your cardboard template, you would not need as wide of a plank to cut from, and it would be more correct for a small barrel like you are using.  I don't like to post published pics, but here is a quick view to get the idea.

 
 
Cannon Cocker, this series of pictures are the ones I emailed him. It is a "Lite" 3 pounder. The bigger/heavier they are the more the cheek's angle. I may do a sketch of it by hand and put it up.
 
Dewayne

[Indygunworks]

I dont like the looks of the straight trails very much.  I really like zulu's cannon w/ an angle in it, and if i am going to go w/ 42 or 48 inch wheels i will want as much of an angle as i can fit on my 14.5 inch wide board.  it will be ALOT less of an angle than the cardboard cutout though..... about 4 inch's less to be exact.
 
How does my pipe idea sount to get the trunion reccesses into the cheeks?

[Double D]

 
Not sure what you mean by might get lucky, I dont want to take a chance at getting lucky.  Does this mean wait on the barrel?  Besides measurements that i know are 100 percent correct its not like i can just test fit a 260 pount barrel at will.

Yes wait until you get the barrel. Take your measurments for the barrel.    Your next question and DeWayne's previous post point out why.
 

Here is the next idea, not sure if its a good one.  If i can find some iron pipe thick enough that i can weld my trunion straps to, with a 2 1/4 inch ID then i can set my cheek spacing where it needs to be, and fit the cutouts in the cheeks w/ that bar.  After its fit then i can just weld my trunion straps to the pipe and cut the top off giving my the bottom cutout and trunion straps as one contiguous piece.  That wouldnt be leaving much up to change at all. 
 

The iron pipe is not tapered you barrel is.  Cheeks as Dewayne said above need to be parallel to the barrel taper.  Your barrel also has moulding that stick out, that affect spacing.

For the record, i dont HAVE to be in a rush on any of this, but i dont want to wait any longer than i have to for no good reason.  I just want to understand what going slow and taking my time means and what i need to accomplish by it.  My metal work is going to be done by a VERY accomplished blacksmith who has tackled MUCH harder projects than this.

The good reason to wait is to get it right and that is will worth the time...don't know how the rest of the folks know, but I can tell you how I know you should wait--been to the school of hard knocks--tuition is expensive---doing things right he second time and correcting over sights cost money.
 

I guess i just need a bit more insight to the proccess and the other little things because it seems like i have a great grasp on the big things.

You are getting that insight and we are glad to share with you----probably what makes most of use want help you, is you do seem to be listening.   To often folks come here and we try to help them and they get all bent out shape and leave....then we see there trash on on Youtube and just shake our heads wonder when something will fall apart or break.

[Cannoneer]

Here is the next idea, not sure if its a good one.  If i can find some iron pipe thick enough that i can weld my trunion straps to, with a 2 1/4 inch ID then i can set my cheek spacing where it needs to be, and fit the cutouts in the cheeks w/ that bar.  After its fit then i can just weld my trunion straps to the pipe and cut the top off giving my the bottom cutout and trunion straps as one contiguous piece.  That wouldnt be leaving much up to change at all. 

Indygunworks,
Would you say what you mean here in a different way, because I'm not following what you're trying to describe. At first I thought you were talking about making the capsquares the way another member (Tropico) sometimes does, where the whole trunnion is encompassed by a ring, but you said "and cut the top off", so I guess not.

Tropico cuts a length of steel tube with the right ID, and welds two flats on to it, but I don't think that's what you're talking about.