Author Topic: Split Trail design, submitted for approval (Read 3651 times)

Zulu · « **Reply #30 on:** February 02, 2013, 11:52:40 AM »

Indy,
Wait for your barrel.
When I ordered mine from South Bend, They gave me the trunnion measurements on the phone. I decided to wait. When the barrel arrived, the trunnion diameter was a different measurement from what they told me. $:-\$

Concerning the angled spread on the side rails.
Here is how I do one of my naval cannons. I have a 2 1/2 degree cant on both sides.
This means all drilled holes, including the trunnion pockets, have to be drilled at 2 1/2 degrees also.
I also have to make all cuts where side cheeks join to axle at 2 1/2 degrees.

If you look, you can see the angle.

trunnion pocket angle

I turn a faux trunnion on my lathe to get my measurements right.

When capsquares are made, they have to have the same 2 1/2 degree angle also.
This system works very well for me as most of the time I don't have possession of the barrel I'm making a carriage for.

I made the white field carriage as a complete novice to wood working. I had no idea how to get all those angles to work so this is what I did.
Never tell anyone this.

I drilled the trunnion pockets straight. No angle. I drilled all other holes a little oversized. No angle. I made the capsquares straight. No angle.
I used no angle in my cuts where the cheeks join the axle housing.
I put everything together and then tried to spread the rear of the trail a little. Because the trail cheeks are 5 1/2' long, it did indeed spread a little. I spread it as far as it would go and cut my side rail separators to that angle.
It worked for me.

If I had to do it again, I would never do it that way. I absolutely would do it the proper way.
Zulu

Indygunworks · « **Reply #31 on:** February 02, 2013, 01:57:43 PM »

Bear with me ill try to explain a little better. So, i would be taking your idea of the faux trunion. Execpt instead of wood, i would be using a piece of metal pipe w/ a 2 1/4 ID. I would mark somehow my cheek spacing on that. Assemble the carraige using this piece. This piece will allow me (after the spacing is set and draft locked into place) be 100 percent sure that my trunion pockets are perfect as i will be fitting this piece into the cheeks. then here would be the proccess... in this magnificant drawing that took me hours to make. The piece to the left is the lower trunion strap, the pipe, then the upper trunnion strap. the yellow represents where they would be welded together. the next picture the red shows what i would remove (dremel grinder ect) and the last thats all black is what i would end up with. That piece would fit perfectly into my cheeks and i wouldnt have to worry about cutting my trunnion pockets with a perfect angle. By fitting that by hand i am eliminated the hardest part to do if i want to stain this thing and not bondo up my mistakes and paint. I would use the same process but out of thicker steel for the cap sqaures. Of course this only works if i can find thick enough iron pipe w/ a 2 1/4 ID

Indygunworks · « **Reply #32 on:** February 02, 2013, 02:06:44 PM »

By using that method above i dont have to set my angles of my trails at any "perfect angle" i can just set my roughed out cheeks on my already assembled axle housing and eyeball the approximate draft that i think will look good (in my head i have around 4 - 6 inch's of total draft if my cheeks are 6' 6") then i can use a sliding bevel to figure out what angle i DO have and cut my center supports accordingly. Clamp it all into place drill my holes and put my rod through and my two cheeks will become one piece.

THEN I can fit my cutouts in my cheeks to my axle

THEN i can do what i described above fit my trunion pockets to my FAUX trunion which happens to be the same thing that will be the metal liner of my trunion pocket.

AND, if all goes well and this metalworking guy is as good as he says he is (pretty sure he is) then i should be able to make all my metal strapping w/out having to attach it permanently as i go.

THEN i can pull the metal off and stain and laquor all my wood, clean up all the marks from the metal, paint the metal, reassemble, then i can take my barrel to have my flashhole drilled and sleeved.

I should be shooting this spring sometime.

Double D · « **Reply #33 on:** February 02, 2013, 10:18:22 PM »

I think you are still missing something here. The cheeks need to be parallel to the barrel taper, not each other. If you insist on the cheeks being parallel then the distant between them needs to be greater than the base ring not the trunnion ring.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #34 on:** February 03, 2013, 12:24:02 AM »

Quote from: Indygunworks on February 02, 2013, 01:57:43 PM

Bear with me ill try to explain a little better. So, i would be taking your idea of the faux trunion. Execpt instead of wood, i would be using a piece of metal pipe w/ a 2 1/4 ID. I would mark somehow my cheek spacing on that. Assemble the carraige using this piece. This piece will allow me (after the spacing is set and draft locked into place) be 100 percent sure that my trunion pockets are perfect as i will be fitting this piece into the cheeks. then here would be the proccess... in this magnificant drawing that took me hours to make. The piece to the left is the lower trunion strap, the pipe, then the upper trunnion strap. the yellow represents where they would be welded together. the next picture the red shows what i would remove (dremel grinder ect) and the last thats all black is what i would end up with. That piece would fit perfectly into my cheeks and i wouldnt have to worry about cutting my trunnion pockets with a perfect angle. By fitting that by hand i am eliminated the hardest part to do if i want to stain this thing and not bondo up my mistakes and paint. I would use the same process but out of thicker steel for the cap sqaures. Of course this only works if i can find thick enough iron pipe w/ a 2 1/4 ID

Okay, thanks Indygunworks, now I got it; sometimes I need a little push in the right direction. You're going to fashion the trunnion plates in this way (now I understand the part about cutting the top off), and then you're going to use the same method to make the capsquares that will fit on top of the plates.
Now that I'm seeing things so clearly, I guess I should pay the favor forward: Douglas; I think that he is planning on making the brackets closer together towards the muzzle of the barrel, and further apart at the rear transom (he's calling it draft).

Indygunworks · « **Reply #35 on:** February 03, 2013, 03:03:54 AM »

Quote from: Cannoneer on February 03, 2013, 12:24:02 AM

Okay, thanks Indygunworks, now I got it; sometimes I need a little push in the right direction. You're going to fashion the trunnion plates in this way (now I understand the part about cutting the top off), and then you're going to use the same method to make the capsquares that will fit on top of the plates.
Now that I'm seeing things so clearly, I guess I should pay the favor forward: Douglas; I think that he is planning on making the brackets closer together towards the muzzle of the barrel, and further apart at the rear transom (he's calling it draft).

Yea, i think you got it, does that mean the idea is sound? It just seems to me that this will be the easiest way to make my trunion plates and have a perfect wood to metal fit which will allow me to stain this thing.

And yes, i AM planning on angling my cheeks, i just dont think i am going to angle them to match the taper of the barrel. I am going to angle them to what looks and feels right to me.

Indygunworks · « **Reply #36 on:** February 03, 2013, 03:05:33 AM »

Does anybody know off the top of their head where to find tubing thats at least 3/16th wall diameter, and 2 1/4 ID?

de_lok · « **Reply #37 on:** February 03, 2013, 05:15:35 AM »

Quote from: Indygunworks on February 03, 2013, 03:05:33 AM

Does anybody know off the top of their head where to find tubing thats at least 3/16th wall diameter, and 2 1/4 ID?

Google DOM (drawn over mandrel) tubing. 2-5/8 od 3/16 wall. Readily available at many steel suppliers.

Double D · « **Reply #38 on:** February 03, 2013, 05:34:21 AM »

Being I am out here in the wolderness and no speciaty steel suppliers at hand I use http://www.speedymetals.com/ This is the closest I could come looking real quick. http://www.speedymetals.com/ps-3515-204-2-34-od-x-250-wall-dom-steel-tube.aspx and http://www.speedymetals.com/ps-3515-204-2-34-od-x-250-wall-dom-steel-tube.aspx

Living in paradise where I do, I accept this thing of higher cost plus postage for the privilege of being here.

Indygunworks · « **Reply #39 on:** February 03, 2013, 12:31:02 PM »

I am assuming that because you guys are giving me places to find this steel tubing that this is an adequate method of making my trunnion straps, cap squares, and a good way of fitting the wood for the trunion pockets?

Double D · « **Reply #40 on:** February 03, 2013, 02:28:45 PM »

Quote from: Indygunworks on February 03, 2013, 12:31:02 PM

I am assuming that because you guys are giving me places to find this steel tubing that this is an adequate method of making my trunnion straps, cap squares,

Yes

Quote

and a good way of fitting the wood for the trunion pockets?

No

Indygunworks · « **Reply #41 on:** February 03, 2013, 02:38:23 PM »

I think my next question here is obvious then.... if the answer is no, then what would be a good way of fitting the metal to the pocket? or cutting the pocket so it perfectly match's the metal?

Double D · « **Reply #42 on:** February 03, 2013, 02:46:20 PM »

Get the spacing and angle correct when you get the barrel. Without the barrel you are just guessing.

If you make the cheeks parallel you have to make the spacing great enough to allow for the greater diameter of the Cascabel. If you do that you have to be sure the trunnion diameter (end of trunnion to end of trunnion length) is equal to the the diameter of the cascabel plus 2x the thickness of the cheeks. You trunnions should not be that long.

Trunnion should be one caliber long on actual cannons. If your trunnion are anywhere near that length, with parallel cheeks spaced for the Cascabel the trunnion may not be long enough to bear fully on the width of the cheeks.

If you set the width parallel to the rim bases you may not be able to fully elevate the barrel as the cascabel may interfere with the cheeks and prevent the rear of the barrel to be depressed. If you relieve the cheeks to get elevation you weaken the cheeks and they can break. This is a very real concern with trunnion below center line barrel.

Wait to get the barrel and get this right---

Indygunworks · « **Reply #43 on:** February 04, 2013, 04:01:06 AM »

I think with your post youare missing something. I AM planning on draft in my cheeks, and am planing on making it close to matching the the actual taper of the barrel. I am just not planning on measureing the cannon barrel and setting my cheeks to PERCECTLY match that taper, but it WILL be tapered.

I am also plannin in waiting for my barrel before i do anything that requres the barrel for measurements.

My comment about the trunion pockets would be AFTER i have the barrel to make the measurements and the carraige is assembled the way it should be. Cheek spacing based off my barrel and as much draft as i can put into it and it still look good and allow me to fully lower and elevate the barrel.

My question is about fitting the metal pipe for my trunion pockets. I planed on just roughing out the trunion pocket after i have marked it w/ the pipe thats been put over a faux trunnion. Once its roughed out i can put sandpaper over the pipe and sand until its at the midway point of the pipe......

Hopefully that makes sense

Double D · « **Reply #44 on:** February 04, 2013, 04:09:57 AM »

Okay, great I just saw a train wreck headed this way.

GGaskill · « **Reply #45 on:** February 04, 2013, 11:24:00 AM »

If you are going to use sand paper wrapped around something to size the trunnion grooves, keep in mind that the something needs to be the thickness of the sand paper smaller in radius or the grooves will be that much oversize.

Indygunworks · « **Reply #46 on:** February 04, 2013, 11:54:35 AM »

No worries, i have lots of experience fitting brass buttplates and side locks into wood gunstocks. I can fit a piece of pipe into this piece of wood easily.

Still wanting to go w/ 48 inch wheels if i can get away with it though.... i dont want this thing to apear small.

Cannon Cocker · « **Reply #47 on:** February 04, 2013, 01:17:44 PM »

Quote from: Indygunworks on February 04, 2013, 11:54:35 AM

Still wanting to go w/ 48 inch wheels if i can get away with it though.... i dont want this thing to apear small.

Proportional is more important than big.

Indygunworks · « **Reply #48 on:** February 04, 2013, 02:37:41 PM »

depends on who is looking at it i guess. Proportional would more than likely be building this thing on 36 inch wheels (if you consider it a verbruggen), but if that were my only choice i would rather not own it. I am not trying to sound short or snobby, i just really dont want to go through all this trouble, then feel like i got something small. Lets call it the little man syndrome. And the bigger the wheels are the higher off the ground my barrel will be the bigger the cannon will feel. I am pretty sure that I can make the 48 inch wheels look appropriate but i will not be 100 percent sure until i get my cheeks roughed out and can set them up at the differant axle heighths. I am 50 50 right now between 42 and 48, leaning towards 42 unless i am 100 percent sure the 48's will look good enough. the trail will be almost 7 feet long and its a somewhat large barrel, so i dont think 48 inch's would be inapropriate on this build even in the 1770's. It is after all a full size british light three pounder and is not a scaled down barrel.

Indygunworks · « **Reply #49 on:** February 04, 2013, 03:04:07 PM »

Quote from: Cannon Cocker on February 04, 2013, 01:17:44 PM

Quote from: Indygunworks on February 04, 2013, 11:54:35 AM

Still wanting to go w/ 48 inch wheels if i can get away with it though.... i dont want this thing to apear small.

Proportional is more important than big.

Not to discount your opinion, i thought i would offer up a few photo's and see what you think. The first two are the exact same barrel i am getting on what i believe are 48 inch wheels, the third photo is a much smaller barrel on what i believe are 42 inchers. I feel like w/ the size of my barrel and the beefyness my carraige is going to have that 48 inch wheels would look pretty good.

threepdr · « **Reply #50 on:** February 15, 2013, 11:41:23 AM »

Indy,
I'm jumping in here a little late. You have too much angle in the trail. I suggest you get a copy of "Muller's Treatise on Artillery, 1780." Reprints are availible. It will give you engineering data on how to build your carriage scaled from the size tube you have. "Round Shot and Rammers" also has some line drawings that might be helpful. The tube you have is the size of a three pounder and so about 75% the size of the British 6 pounder that is lllustrated in Round Shot. If you scale it to 3/4 of that carriage you will be on track. Minimum wheel diameter would be 42 inches, but you could make the wheels up to about 50 inches if you choose. Here is a link to photos of the 3 pounder that I built many years ago (no longer own it). The tube is about the size of the Hern tube that you have (the pics you show are actually the tube that I own, is now residing under a table in my garage.) There are good close ups of the ironwork. Get Mullers book. It is a good start for learnig about guns and carriages of that era.
Here is a link to the photos:
http://photobucket.com/threepounder
Good Luck!

Cannon Cocker · « **Reply #51 on:** February 15, 2013, 06:49:59 PM »

I'm not sure whether the 42 or 48" wheels would be more proportional. Getting Mullers book is a good idea. He goes into great detail about the proportions of carriages with respect to the length of the tube, and has many diagrams that can be scaled to what you need. I have his book, and made a naval carriage to exact scale that way. It's worth the few dollars it will cost you to get the data from a period book which will end the second guessing.

Indygunworks · « **Reply #52 on:** February 16, 2013, 06:03:16 AM »

I am tired of buying books, I have already purchased round shot and ramrods, and grasshoppers and butterflies, neither really provided me with the information..... This is going to be a blend of what i think looks good while doing my best to make it appear appropriate to a degree. I have decided i am going with 48 inch wheels since i want this cannon to feel large and unless someone wants to look in their book and scale it and tell me 42 is the largest i should go then i am just going to make a decision that i can stick with.

aside from that i would like to know trail length.... I am going to use my own ideas for the angles and cutouts of the trail, but i want the length to be proportional to the wheels/tube and having never seen one of these in person all i can go off of is pictures... If anyone could make some reccomendations on length that would be great otherwise its going to be around 6 feet, maybe 6 feet 6 inches.

Double D · « **Reply #53 on:** February 16, 2013, 06:52:58 AM »

Easy there big fellow we are just trying to help you.

You are never obligated to follow our advice, its your cannon.

But if you post here we take that as de facto request for advice...

If you have Round shot and Rammers you should be able to do the scaling yourself.

You can not have enough books and I believe the first book that was suggested to you was Muller's treatise. You can buy it cheap here;

http://net.ondemandbooks.com/google/vylEAAAAYAAJ

Or download a PDF copy for free here: http://books.google.com/books/about/A_Treatise_of_Artillery.html?id=vylEAAAAYAAJ

I strongly suggest before you go spending the money you take time and get it right.

48 inch wheels may be right, but if they are too big you cannon barrel is is going to look shrimpy. Getting it right is cheap, getting it wrong is expensive and maybe even a bit embarrassing.

Indygunworks · « **Reply #54 on:** February 16, 2013, 07:04:04 AM »

Point taken, ill settle down a bit.... I guess i am just frustrated because I cannot see the unkowns like you guys can see in your head, and sometimes it seems like you guys want me to go a bit more "authentic" than i am quite willing to do. I have a vision that i cannot type out on the internet. also scaling is a bit of a challenge since the scales in the books i have recieved have NO referance to size to begin with, so i dont even know where to begin with it.

Ill check out that free down load now....

Indygunworks · « **Reply #55 on:** February 16, 2013, 07:06:41 AM »

I cannot download any PDF files from that link... What am i doing wrong?

Zulu · « **Reply #56 on:** February 16, 2013, 07:17:56 AM »

Hi Indy,
Look in your Ram Shot and Rammers. Measure the wheel with a ruler. If the wheel is 3", use the formula 3" = 42". So that means 1" = 14".
Now measure the picture of the trail. If it is 6" long, use 6 X 14 = 84".
That makes your trail 7' long.

If you want to use 48" wheels, 1" will equal 16".
6 X 16 =96. Your trail should be 8' long.
Zulu

Indygunworks · « **Reply #57 on:** February 16, 2013, 07:34:27 AM »

I am sizing the carraige off the barrel though, so how do you read the scale for a 46 inch barrel?

Zulu · « **Reply #58 on:** February 16, 2013, 07:59:00 AM »

Indy,
Go back and look at my picture of the white carriage. I have a 36" barrel on 36" wheels.
My barrel certainly could be longer and still fit that carriage.
I don't think it would look good shorter.
If you use 42" wheels, The barrel will be a little longer than the wheel diameter. I think that will look good.

If you use 48" wheels, your barrel will be shorther than the wheel diameter and starts to look funky in my opinion.
Zulu

Double D · « **Reply #59 on:** February 16, 2013, 10:09:50 AM »

Here is another scale for you,

Measure the barrel length in the drawing in Round shot and rammers. Divided your barrel length by the length of the barrel in the picture.

Lets say for simplicity and as an example your barrel is 46 inches long and the barrel in the drawing 3 inches. 46 divided by 3 equals 15.3. 15.3 becomes your scale multiplier.

Measure the diameter of the wheel in the picture. Lets say for example the wheel in the picture measures 3.5 inches. Multiply 3.5 by you multiplier... 15.3. In this example you wheel would be 53.6 inches in diameter.

You can use this scale factor to convert any measurement in those drawings to fit your barrel.

We are not pushing authenticity, far from in it.

What we are pushing is correct scale and proportion.

If you want you cannon to look stupid and like a youtube commando made it. just ignore our advice.