Better Emergency Rifle: Win. 70 or Rem 7600?

[mannyrock]

 
   OK, this is a fun question.  No insertion of other guns please.
 
   Which would be a better all-around survival, shtf, rifle?:  a pre-64 Win. 70 (composit stock and normal scope config) or a Remington 7600 (composite stock, normals scope config), each in .308 Win.
 
   The 7600 has much quicker follow-up shots, but the Model 70 would be much easier to fire from the prone position (no need to roll to one side to pump the action.)
 
   Both start out with 5 shot capacity.  But it may actually be  quicker to reload 5 rounds into the mag well of the Win. 70 with a handful of loose rounds, than to change the 4 shot mag in the Remington 7600 (given all of the steps it takes to dig out the spare mag, find that tiny mag release lever, pull the empty mag, insert and seat the new one, and SAVE the empty one by placing it back in a pocket.)
 
  The 7600 has a weaker extraction system and an extractor that has some tendency to break.  The 70 has a strong extraction system and a claw extractor.
 
  Thanks for all comments.
 
Mannyrock
 
 

[Swampman]

I'd take the Model 70.

[FPH]

I'd take the Model 70.

X2.....simplicity.

[spruce]

No question in my mind - M70.
 
The rifle it closely copied, the M98 Mauser, proved the design up to the task in wars and other conflicts all over the world.
 
The M70 was used as a sniper rifle during the Vietnam war.  I'd say that's fair proof of it's reliability under adverse conditions.

[Couger]

 
Not to be the odd man, at a gun show once saw a M760 with a side-folder stock a truck driver had carried during his travels!
 
That one was in .308, and 10rd mags are sometimes available for it!
 
But why is the bolt gun ONLY limited to pre64 M70's?
 
I once considered building a more modern M7600 pumper with side folder for a "trunk gun" [walk me home piece],
 
Even looked into a cut down [ishapore] S.M.L.E. too.  Everything in .308.
 
Any of them would work, altho the Ishapore would be the most durable, plus its 12rd magazene can be fed with stripper clips .
 
Ruger and Savage also make .308 rifles that fit this discussion, too.

[mannyrock]

Couger,
 
   Thanks for the questions.  I limited it to the pre-64 Winchester because it has all of the strengths and benefits of a 98 Mauser, yet it comes a featherweight package.
 
    While I know that many folks like the Ishapore, I think it is a very poor bet.  First, it is a copy of the old Enfield No. 1, not the more modern Enfield No. 4.   Crummy iron sights, no receiver sights, and like all Enfields, it will grow headspace every time you shoot it.  There is a reason that Britain made four extra sizes of bolt heads for the Enfield.  As you shoot the rifle over an extended period, you have to replace the bolt head with the next size up so it won't blow up.   Today, it is very very tough to find a No. 2 size bolt head to replace a worn out No. 1 size.  I haven't seen No. 3s in years, and I've never seen a No. 4.    So, where are you gonna get these bolt heads when your survival gun starts to wear out?
 
   Also, the majority of Ishapores I have seen have nagging feeding problems with the magazines.  You can google it and read all of the complaints.  Most of them are things like,  "My rifle will feed the first 4 rounds, but always jams on the 5th."   
 
   I guess I am surprised that most of the responders so far have said the Win. 70 would be better than the Remington 7600.   Kinda the opposite of what I expected.   Though the 7600 is a little slower to reload, I think that in any armed confrontation the first five rounds fired would be the most critical, and the the 7600 can fire these at lightening speed.
 
  Best,  Mannyrock

[Swampman]

I only need one round.  I just don't trust modern Remington repeaters.  I'd prefer a Model 700 given the choice because it's much more accurate.

[BBF]

Being a southpaw I would go for the pump gun if for nothing else. A 10 rd Mag is also available.
I don't understand why the shooter would have to roll on his side to work the action. With the bolt action you need to let go of the forearm.

[Swampman]

I don't......

[mannyrock]

BBF,
 
    Fire a pump from the prone position, and you will see what I mean by having to roll to your strong side.  To work the action, the forestock has to be pumped "straight" back.  But when in the prone position, your left arm bone is at  a 45 degree angle to the forestock and your left wrist, so you can't pump the action back without really stressing your left wrist.(painful).  Therefore, you have to rock momemtarily to your strong side to work the action.
 
   I think that with a bolt gun, if you train long enough, you can work that bolt without lifting up the rifle or losing your sight picture too much.    Swampman has probably mastered this.
 
Best, Mannyrock

[BBF]

Being a southpaw all of this is "bassackward" for me.
I do know shooting a right side bolt action requires a different maneuver for me.
Being this was meant as an Emergency Rifle I presume it implied someone might shoot back. I'm trying to remember the last time I was belly down and shooting any rifle at all for any reason and I can't come up with when and where.

[Couger]

...... while I know that many folks like the Ishapore, I think it is a very poor bet.  First, it is a copy of the old Enfield No. 1, not the more modern Enfield No. 4.   Crummy iron sights, no receiver sights, and like all Enfields, it will grow headspace every time you shoot it.  There is a reason that Britain made four extra sizes of bolt heads for the Enfield.  As you shoot the rifle over an extended period, you have to replace the bolt head with the next size up so it won't blow up.   Today, it is very very tough to find a No. 2 size bolt head to replace a worn out No. 1 size.  I haven't seen No. 3s in years, and I've never seen a No. 4.    So, where are you gonna get these bolt heads when your survival gun starts to wear out?
 
   Also, the majority of Ishapores I have seen have nagging feeding problems with the magazines.  You can google it and read all of the complaints.  Most of them are things like,  "My rifle will feed the first 4 rounds, but always jams on the 5th."   
 
   I guess I am surprised that most of the responders so far have said the Win. 70 would be better than the Remington 7600.   Kinda the opposite of what I expected.   Though the 7600 is a little slower to reload, I think that in any armed confrontation the first five rounds fired would be the most critical, and the the 7600 can fire these at lightening speed.
 
  Best,  Mannyrock 

Thanks Manny for your respose, and well-thought/expressed explaination!  Had no idea the Ishapore had so many problems!  Glad I cancelled my project.
 
The M7600/M6 platform I think shows potential (for a non-SA .308), but the magazenes/feeding are a major weakness for a hard-core working or MBC (battle carbine) rifle!
 
No one has mentioned the Browning BLR in .308.  Again the mags and feeding are weaknesses for use as an MBC.  When I mention MBC for use as a walk-me-home piece, the .308 is capable of taking four (deer, elk, bear) and two legged targets (with at least twice the range of a .223).

[blind ear]

Model  70. I have a 7600, in 35 wheelen. It is HEAVY. It will drop an extra round on fireing and jam. Some say a new clip will fix it but I haven't found the right one yet. Same problem with other calibers in the 7600. ear

[BBF]

Having had or have both a 760 and 742 in 30-06, jamming was never a problem with either.

[SHOOTALL]

when the op said survival rifle it limits the rifle to 100 reliablity. The bolt action comes about as close as it gets. But then other qualities come to light like no magazine to lose turnning your auto into a heavy single shot hard to load. Less parts to break.
 Then there is the fire power thing. Ok you face 5 armed attackers , they all fire at once will your fire power really count ? Like the OP said survival and in survival you don't engage in fighting if anything you take a long shot then run . In which case a reliable accurate bolt gun will excell. Besides how much ammo can you tote ? If you have to travel weight is a killer.

[mannyrock]

Shootall,
 
  I guess these are lessons the U.S. learned from the Viet Cong.
 
   Hide in holes all day.
 
   Only engage a target during the last fifteen minutes of daylight each day.
 
   Squat in the bushes, then pop up and fire three rounds from long range, and then run and hide in your hole.
 
   It was, it seems, very effective.   But only in heavy forest or jungle.  It probably wouldn't work in 50% or more of the terrain of the U.S.
 
 
  Manny
 
 
 

[SHOOTALL]

Well if one only look at the History they may disagree , the Miniutemen may have been the first to deploy those tatics in the eastern half of America and the Apache  in the western half  So which half won't it work ? 
I believe the VC learned from us  well those ferom back in the day as some books indicate.
I may have been more effective in jungles but the south west is far from jungle and the Apache proved they may have been the best at it and under those conditions.

[FPH]

I think the biggest lesson learned is that our enemy was willing to sit in ambush for prolonged periods of time and then sacrifice themselves in order to kill some of us.

[BBF]

Right on FPH:
One of the worst types of enemies to face are those that are willing to die to kill you.

[blind ear]

Right on FPH:
One of the worst types of enemies to face are those that are willing to die to kill you.

-
Yes indeed. They will sneak through the wire after dark and get you with a grenade or knife. ear

[Ranger99]

never had either one.
i'd have to be the 7600.
i can't shoot bolt actions.