Author Topic: Questions About An Old Signal Cannon (Read 2499 times)

Auctioneer · « **on:** February 03, 2013, 07:15:23 PM »

I'm new to this board but I've done a fair amount of digging on it and I'm impressed with the breadth of knowledge and willingness to help out newbies and dolts like me. The cannon pictured below has been kicking around in our little burg since the early 1900's and was used for starting parades, chivarees and the like. For the last 40 years it's been a dust catcher but I'd like to fire it if you guys think it can be safely done. Powder and fuse I've got. The barrel is about 17" long and appears to be brass. Overall length is 25". Bore is 1" The carriage, wheels and everything else is iron or steel. I suspect that it was made by a local manufacturer that had its own foundry, now defunct, but I have no proof and it's not marked in any way. My main questions regard the breech end. What I understand to be the cascable has a threaded hole in the side and looks as though something is missing. What is the missing something? And why would there be a steel rod the the length of the cascable and why is there a steel screw opposite the threaded opening? The cascable itself seems to be held in by two lead slugs. Any comments or information is welcome.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #1 on:** February 04, 2013, 01:14:42 AM »

Welcome aboard, Auctioneer! I don't have many answers to your questions, but my suggestion would be to not fire it until you know how it's constructed. The part about "two lead slugs" holding in the breech plug, doesn't sound too good. You're going to have to find out how that breech plug is attached to the barrel; is it threaded? Does it look to you like the cascabel is made out of the same metal as the barrel?

Double D · « **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2013, 03:54:20 AM »

How and what that breech plug is about and what is the OD over the breech?

Those two questions are the critical ones.

cannonmn · « **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2013, 04:15:35 AM »

The breech plug aka cascabel seems to be a separate piece that was intended to be removed for loading or whatever. First thing I would do (this is ME now, not necessarily you) would be to grind off that ugly weld or whatever bead. It may pop off with a couple of taps with a cold chisel since it looks like they tried to weld on cast iron which does not hold unless you use the exact proper welding rod. Then try to remove the breech plug, unscrew or whatever, using penetrants, torque, impact, and if you are sure it is unloaded, heat.. Until you see how that's held in, if at all, don't even think about firing the thing.

de_lok · « **Reply #4 on:** February 04, 2013, 09:11:37 AM »

Auctioneer,
Could you take a few more pictures? If possible with better light. Pictures taken outdoors in the evening (with clear skys) gives good natural light. This will allow us to see your cannon in greater detail. Also some close up detail of the breech end of the barrel.

This cannon is typical of late 19th century (and maybe early 20th century) artillary pieces ment as gifts for retiring military officers. The ones I've seen were made to shoot black powder blanks in a shotgun cartridge, usually 20 or 12 gauge. This one appears to be vented on top, but also appears to have a removable cascabel. More needs to be known before firing this piece is considered.

Here is a link to a 20 gauge signal cannon with cast iron wheels and carriage (I know the barrel is different) that is made similar to yours.
http://www.aagaines.com/man/20gasignal1.html

Auctioneer · « **Reply #5 on:** February 04, 2013, 03:21:52 PM »

Here are some additional photos that may be of help. In my rush I left my notes with dimensions at work so I'll post those tomorrow.

Quote

You're going to have to find out how that breech plug is attached to the barrel; is it threaded? Does it look to you like the cascabel is made out of the same metal as the barrel?

It may be threaded but I can't say for certain since the lead slugs have it "locked" in place. Yes, it appears that the cascabel is made as the same material as the barrel.

Quote

First thing I would do (this is ME now, not necessarily you) would be to grind off that ugly weld or whatever bead. It may pop off with a couple of taps with a cold chisel since it looks like they tried to weld on cast iron which does not hold unless you use the exact proper welding rod.

I get what you're driving at but what looks like an ugly weld is actually overflow from the lead slug or key or whatever it is. It's lead poured in brass (or bronze), not weld bead on cast iron.

Quote

The ones I've seen were made to shoot black powder blanks in a shotgun cartridge, usually 20 or 12 gauge. This one appears to be vented on top, but also appears to have a removable cascabel.

I've had the cartridge type at auction before, usually in 10 or 12 gauge but the cascabel was designed to be easily removed and they all had some type of mechanical hammer/firing pin mechanism. This cascabel could probably be removed but it's going to need to be chiseled or melted so it doesn't lend itself to conventional cartridges. I took a good look down the bore and the breech end is perfectly flat & smooth. The steel pin in the cascabel doesn't come through the breech face so it wouldn't seem to be a firing pin and it's stuck tight to boot.

It just dawned on me the right angle threads in cascabel might have been for a leverage handle to remove the the breech plug. I suppose if the threads were boogered up they could've decided the heck with it and leaded it in place for conventional firing. I'm not keen on melting the lead out as I rather enjoy seeing it "as found". I guess I'm going to have to suck it up melt the lead out.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #6 on:** February 04, 2013, 11:16:37 PM »

Thanks for the additional pics. You mention not wanting to alter the state you found this barrel in, but IMO the way someone has jerry-rigged the breech plug isn't enhancing this piece one bit, neither monetarily nor aesthetically. In fact, the opposite is true, so I don't see any reason to feel bad about melting that lead out, and it's also likely unsafe to fire it, as is. Once you get that plug and lead out, it should be easy to see if your barrel was originally designed to fire BP shotgun blanks.
The one close-up of the bottom of the cascabel knob, neck, and the lead overflow, makes it appear like there's a recess on the outer breech face; or am I imagining things?

Victor3 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2013, 01:11:54 AM »

I predict that when the lead is removed there will be two locking lugs found in there. At some point they probably wore out and wouldn't lock up in the breech and the owner fixed them in the locked position with lead.

de_lok · « **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2013, 03:47:55 AM »

Quote from: Victor3 on February 05, 2013, 01:11:54 AM

I predict that when the lead is removed there will be two locking lugs found in there. At some point they probably wore out and wouldn't lock up in the breech and the owner fixed them in the locked position with lead.

Victor3,
Do you think this was originally a blank cartridge signal cannon? That is my first impression. Auctioneer states it is flat and smooth at the end of the bore, it could have had a plug installed into the chamber the locked the cascabel in place and lead fill to keep it there permently. Its hard to tell without being able to clearly see inside the bore.......

Double D · « **Reply #9 on:** February 05, 2013, 07:27:34 AM »

I suspect the breech plug that is in this gun now is a replacement,

Check very carefully to see if the gun is loaded, then with a hand held propane torch start melting that lead out. Put a bolt or rod in the hole in the knob for a handle. As you heat, and the lead starts to run, wiggle the breech plug to see if it will move when the lead is soft. If it is lose keep moving it until it comes out.

I also suspect like I think others do that you are going to find locking lugs in the back of that barrel and the breech plug is just something cobbled up to work.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #10 on:** February 05, 2013, 07:54:03 AM »

DD,
At first I also thought that the original breech plug had been replaced, but now I'm not so sure. The two locking flanges would be below the neck of the cascabel, and would fit inside the two recesses where the lead can now be seen, so it may be the original.
We will find out soon after Auctioneer gets that torch blazin'.

Double D · « **Reply #11 on:** February 05, 2013, 08:34:25 AM »

Possible John, very possible.

I am more incline to believe the breech block is a emplacement. The original might have had a covering gas flange over the lug raceways and firing mechanism in it.

What ever is correct, this is an interesting one.

Auctioneer · « **Reply #12 on:** February 05, 2013, 09:00:55 AM »

Thanks to all for your advice and input. Still debating as to how or if I want to proceed. The measurements are:

Barrel Length (including cascabel) 18 3/8"
Circumference at Breech 8 7/16"
Diameter at Breech 2 5/8"
Circumference at Muzzle 5 3/4"
Diameter at Muzzle 1 5/8"
Muzzle Bore 1"

The entire rig weighs 52 lbs

From what I can see, it appears that the chamber is slightly larger than the bore. Also if I understand it correctly, the breech diameter should be three times the bore. If that's the case, I guess I'm out of the running for firing it even if the cascabel issue is resolved.

flagman1776 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 05, 2013, 09:51:50 AM »

Given the oddities at the breech end... and the larger than bore chamber... perhaps it was a cartridge firing gun which was "converted" to muzzleloading. It might be salvaged by rebreeching or lining. Verrrry Interesting!

de_lok · « **Reply #14 on:** February 05, 2013, 10:16:57 AM »

Quote from: flagman1776 on February 05, 2013, 09:51:50 AM

Given the oddities at the breech end... and the larger than bore chamber... perhaps it was a cartridge firing gun which was "converted" to muzzleloading. It might be salvaged by rebreeching or lining. Verrrry Interesting!

So far thats what it looks like to me, a cartridge firing gun converted to muzzle loader. First question that comes to mind is why does it appearantly have a removable breech and vented for fuse? These two things contradict each other. The machine work on the cascabel, and the screw and bolt in it appears to have been some type of firing pin cocking device. I'm sure there are others like it out there somewhere. The engineering, pattern and foundry work on this cannon represent a level of craftsmanship not found on one-off items.

Ohh, the new pics are much better

Dewayne

Cannoneer · « **Reply #15 on:** February 05, 2013, 10:51:19 AM »

Quote from: Auctioneer on February 05, 2013, 09:00:55 AM

Also if I understand it correctly, the breech diameter should be three times the bore. If that's the case, I guess I'm out of the running for firing it even if the cascabel issue is resolved.

The shell loaded with BP is going to act like an obturator and expell the gasses forward out the bore. Firing this gun the way it was intended to be fired will be safe. Indeed, much safer than firing it as an (altered) muzzleloader.

flagman1776 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 05, 2013, 11:23:16 AM »

Cartridge 4 bore =	1.052", 5 bore = .976"

Double D · « **Reply #17 on:** February 05, 2013, 12:52:50 PM »

Dewayne I think the screw/bolt is the elevator on the trail.

de_lok · « **Reply #18 on:** February 05, 2013, 01:17:34 PM »

Quote from: Double D on February 05, 2013, 12:52:50 PM

Dewayne I think the screw/bolt is the elevator on the trail.

Douglas,
This is the screw/bolt I was refering to.......................

Cannoneer · « **Reply #19 on:** February 05, 2013, 02:02:39 PM »

Flagman1776; you know you're right! I wasn't even stopping to consider it, but Auctioneer did say 1-inch bore and it looked like the chamber was larger. I'm emending my post to just say shell.

Auctioneer · « **Reply #20 on:** February 05, 2013, 02:32:35 PM »

The screw/bolt that Dewayne is referring to is a bit of a head scratcher for me. The "bolt" is more of a tapered plug, not threaded on the visible portions, no screwdriver slot, no bolthead flats and it's on the same horizontal plane as the screw. Because it's mounted dead center the screw can only go as far as the bolt/plug but I can't see it because the bolt/plug blocks the view through the threaded hole. If you look closely at this pic you can just see the bolt/plug where it passes through the threaded opening. It doesn't penetrate the breech face though, so I'm not clear on the why or the what of either the screw or the bolt/plug. The chamber looks to be slightly larger than the bore but I can't tell for what depth. Also, it doesn't appear to be machined, more like it was cast that way but it could just be crud built up. It's hard to tell from trying to stuff my eyeball and a Mag light into a 1" bore.

Double D · « **Reply #21 on:** February 05, 2013, 02:36:16 PM »

Quote from: de_lok on February 05, 2013, 01:17:34 PM

Quote from: Double D on February 05, 2013, 12:52:50 PM
Dewayne I think the screw/bolt is the elevator on the trail.

Douglas,
This is the screw/bolt I was refering to.......................

Okay, got it.

Victor3 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 06, 2013, 12:18:27 AM »

Quote from: Auctioneer on February 05, 2013, 02:32:35 PM

The screw/bolt that Dewayne is referring to is a bit of a head scratcher for me. The "bolt" is more of a tapered plug, not threaded on the visible portions, no screwdriver slot, no bolthead flats and it's on the same horizontal plane as the screw. Because it's mounted dead center the screw can only go as far as the bolt/plug but I can't see it because the bolt/plug blocks the view through the threaded hole. If you look closely at this pic you can just see the bolt/plug where it passes through the threaded opening. It doesn't penetrate the breech face though, so I'm not clear on the why or the what of either the screw or the bolt/plug. The chamber looks to be slightly larger than the bore but I can't tell for what depth. Also, it doesn't appear to be machined, more like it was cast that way but it could just be crud built up. It's hard to tell from trying to stuff my eyeball and a Mag light into a 1" bore.

This is just an edjumucated guess, but I believe that the large threaded hole was originally for a handle to unlock the breech plug. The "tapered plug" may be where the original firing pin was, which went through a hole in the threaded portion of the handle (inside the cascabel) and then on through the breech face to punch the primer. The screw opposite the handle hole could have been designed to lock the handle from unscrewing (which if it did, would jam the firing pin), or was maybe a stop that engaged a step in the firing to keep it from falling out.

When things didn't work so well as a breech loader anymore, the owner might have removed the handle (as it wasn't needed on a muzzle loader), hammered a plug into the firing pin hole and filed it flush with the breech face. He then fixed the breech plug in place with lead and drilled the vent.

Maybe...

de_lok · « **Reply #23 on:** February 06, 2013, 05:03:01 AM »

Victor3,
I think your on the right track, I have been able to get a couple pictures from a friend that has a breech that is similar in design to this one, and could be what it looks like inside. They were also made with lugs only (no threads) and held in place with a pin to prevent rotating loose. One thing that concerns me is the threaded hole in the cascabel (my opinion/observation) should be facing the carraige (downward).

Dewayne

Breech Plug

Breech

Double D · « **Reply #24 on:** February 06, 2013, 06:14:21 AM »

Could it be that the Breech plug that leaded in place is in upside down?

Auctioneer · « **Reply #25 on:** February 06, 2013, 08:33:36 AM »

I've had that style of interupted thread on shotgun shell cannons that I've sold before. But like your photos, they all had a firing pin mechanism which mine lacks. I'll get some more photos of the cascable this afternoon and try to get one down the barrel of the breech, too.

Victor3 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 08, 2013, 09:53:45 PM »

Quote from: Auctioneer on February 06, 2013, 08:33:36 AM

I've had that style of interupted thread on shotgun shell cannons that I've sold before. But like your photos, they all had a firing pin mechanism which mine lacks. I'll get some more photos of the cascable this afternoon and try to get one down the barrel of the breech, too.

I'm 90% sure that it originally had one of some sort. No other reason I can see for the extra goodies on the cascabel.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #27 on:** February 09, 2013, 04:01:26 AM »

A whole 10% undecided, huh; what a fence sitter. Ha!

de_lok · « **Reply #28 on:** February 09, 2013, 04:38:04 AM »

Quote from: Victor3 on February 08, 2013, 09:53:45 PM

Quote from: Auctioneer on February 06, 2013, 08:33:36 AM
I've had that style of interupted thread on shotgun shell cannons that I've sold before. But like your photos, they all had a firing pin mechanism which mine lacks. I'll get some more photos of the cascable this afternoon and try to get one down the barrel of the breech, too.

I'm 90% sure that it originally had one of some sort. No other reason I can see for the extra goodies on the cascabel.

I'm going with 99% sure it did!

I believe (my 2 cents worth) the firing pin was replaced with the hex bolt. I was almost positive I had pictures or a link to another cannon with a similar setup but for the life of me I can't find them

..................

Dewayne

Cannoneer · « **Reply #29 on:** February 09, 2013, 05:32:59 AM »

Auctioneer,
This is the type signal/salute gun that I mentioned, all those (like this one) that I've seen have been 12 gauge. Some differences other than being smaller than your model, are that the barrel and breech meet flush when screwed together, and the firing mechanism. On these the firing pin is pulled back (on a spring) and locked in place by rotating the handle, then the firing pin is released by pulling down on the handle (see the hole in the handle for attaching a lanyard). Is this the same kind that you sold in the past?