Drones for use against American citizens?

[Victor3]

Killed by the state is killed by the state it doesnt matter if you are here, way over there, or somewhere in between.  And I am not saying that this one joker that we know about who was droned out is innocent. I am simply saying it sets a dangerous precident with consequences that we will feel here with all of the drones that are now flying our friendly skies. Anyone who belives that these drones will not be abused here sooner or later is very naive.

 Excellent. That's pretty much what I was trying to convey in my OP. It's a slippery slope that could have all sorts of unintended (or intended) consequences down the line.


 I seem to remember reading somewhere about people being endowed by their Creator with a right to life or something. 


 I find the whole thing chilling...


The undated and unsigned 16-page document leaked to NBC refers to itself as a Department of Justice white paper. Its logic is flawed, its premises are bereft of any appreciation for the values of the Declaration of Independence and the supremacy of the Constitution, and its rationale could be used to justify any breaking of any law by any “informed, high-level official of the U.S. government.”
The quoted phrase is extracted from the memo, which claims that the law reposes into the hands of any unnamed “high-level official,” not necessarily the president, the lawful power to decide when to suspend constitutional protections guaranteed to all persons and kill them without any due process whatsoever. This is the power claimed by kings and tyrants. It is the power most repugnant to American values. It is the power we have arguably fought countless wars to prevent from arriving here. Now, under Obama, it is here.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/02/07/obama-gives-himself-permission-to-kill/#ixzz2KU2N06py

[Victor3]

I wonder how many people on this very forum are considered "terrorists" by this government simply due to the fact that they believe in freedom, liberty and the Bill of Rights as written? We will see assassination via drone of of US citizens right here withn the borders of the good ole' USA sooner rather than later

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 Well yes, and that's why they're forming a fleet of drones to patrol and snoop on Americans in North America.  A 'terrorist' is any body that is contentious with the PTB agenda_ _just that simple.  And here's an example....you might be a 'terrorist' if you're a pro-lifer according to West Point study........got that Mike?

   Such conflation of conservatives with racist terrorists has become a staple of Obama administration anti-terrorism reports.
   An April 2009 DHS report entitled “Rightwing [sic.] Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment,” identified “groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration” and opposition to same-sex “marriage,” as “the most dangerous domestic terrorism threat in the United States.” The DHS later pulled the report.
   Yet DHS and FBI agents subsequently attended a terrorism training seminar on alleged pro-life terrorism hosted by Planned Parenthood, the National Abortion Federation, and the Feminist Majority Foundation. After equating free speech with violence, organizers distributed a resource guide listing three pages of purportedly extremist websites to monitor, including mainstream organizations such as Priests for Life and the Christian Broadcasting Network.
   Yet another DHS-funded report, “Hot Spots of Terrorism and Other Crimes in the United States, 1970 to 2008,” written by Gary LaFree and Bianca Bersani, concluded that single issue groups, including abortion opponents, had perpetrated more atrocities over a longer period of time than “extreme left-wing,” “extreme right-wing,” “religious,” or “ethno-nationalist” terrorists.
   Constitutional expert John Whitehead of The Rutherford Institute has voiced concerns that the 2012 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) “would allow the military to show up at your door if you’re [deemed] a ‘potential terrorist,’ and put you in military detention” indefinitely, without charges.
 

 With the above now being bought into by "high level officials," how long might it be before some crime reportedly perpetrated by a "domestic terrorist" is overblown to the point where we have something along the lines of a Kristallnacht in the US?


The pretext for the pogroms was the shooting in Paris on November 7 of the German diplomat Ernst vom Rath by a Polish-Jewish student, Herschel Grynszpan. News of Rath’s death on November 9 reached Adolf Hitler in Munich, Germany, where he was celebrating the anniversary of the abortive 1923 Beer Hall Putsch. There, Minister of PropagandaJoseph Goebbels, after conferring with Hitler, harangued a gathering of old storm troopers, urging violent reprisals staged to appear as “spontaneous demonstrations.” Telephone orders from Munich triggered pogroms throughout Germany, which then included Austria.
Just before midnight on November 9, Gestapo chief Heinrich Müller sent a telegram to all police units informing them that “in shortest order, actions against Jews and especially their synagogues will take place in all of Germany. These are not to be interfered with.” Rather, the police were to arrest the victims. Fire companies stood by synagogues in flames with explicit instructions to let the buildings burn. They were to intervene only if a fire threatened adjacent “Aryan” properties.
In two days and nights, more than 1,000 synagogues were burned or otherwise damaged. Rioters ransacked and looted about 7,500 Jewish businesses, killed at least 91 Jews, and vandalized Jewish hospitals, homes, schools, and cemeteries. The attackers were often neighbours. Some 30,000 Jewish males aged 16 to 60 were arrested. To accommodate so many new prisoners, the concentration camps at Dachau, Buchenwald, and Sachsenhausen were expanded.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/323626/Kristallnacht

[lakota]

My guess is that they are perfecting machine and technique overseas before using here. When they start drone killing here first they will blow up some gangs or drug houses and maybe some drug mules trying to cross the southern border just to get all of the sheeple on board. Once they have the support of the lemmings they will expand the killing program to target vile acts of "sedition" and any other behaviors that they consider threatening.

[Defoe]

Mike in Virginia, if you hop in your car and drive down to North Carolina, are you no longer a Virginian??
Americans targeted for death by drone anywhere, are murdered.

[ChungDoQuan]

The Constitution is still in effect in North Carolina, just like it is in Virginia. It is NOT in effect in Pakistan or Afghanistan. The Constitution is OUR laws, not theirs, I don't care how much someone wants it to be. IT IS NOT UNIVERSAL.

[Victor3]

The Constitution is still in effect in North Carolina, just like it is in Virginia. It is NOT in effect in Pakistan or Afghanistan. The Constitution is OUR laws, not theirs, I don't care how much someone wants it to be. IT IS NOT UNIVERSAL.

 So if a US Citizen who stole my wallet happens to be in Pakistan or Afghanistan, I can launch an ICBM from my garage in SoCal to dispatch him with impunity?


 Awesome...


(I consider myself "a high-level official," btw)

[Defoe]

The Constitution is still in effect in North Carolina, just like it is in Virginia. It is NOT in effect in Pakistan or Afghanistan. The Constitution is OUR laws, not theirs, I don't care how much someone wants it to be. IT IS NOT UNIVERSAL.

I go to foreign countries quite often, so what do I become when I land on foreign soil??
A baby born to American citizens abroad, is an American citizen.  only when you denounce your citizenship do you become a non-citizen.

[ChungDoQuan]

In another country you are a foreign national--- still expected to abide by that country's laws. If you are murdered there, it's up to them to investigate and prosecute--- or not. The baby issue is more of an international agreement.

Victor3: I don't think you can own an ICBM. I might be wrong. I don't think you can declare your own war, personally, either.

[SHOOTALL]

Apparently, remote control murder, or execution, across international borders and controlled from within the USA...is not illegal... in some minds. Just immoral.
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Interesting legal question...I'd say the murder(s) actually take place in the location or place of origin for an execution____not where the body or remains are found.
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..TM7

here you check the deer in the county where it falls 

[Defoe]

In another country you are a foreign national--- still expected to abide by that country's laws. If you are murdered there, it's up to them to investigate and prosecute--- or not. The baby issue is more of an international agreement.

Victor3: I don't think you can own an ICBM. I might be wrong. I don't think you can declare your own war, personally, either.

Okay, you and obama are in favor of suspending the "CONSTITUTION" when you want to feel the power at your fingertips, and murder a UNITED STATES CITIZEN.
Which part of the constitution would you like to keep, if any part??

[SHOOTALL]

What I read was the target would have to be in contact and helping the terroist . We are not talking a guy walking down main street that failed to pay some parking tickets . So who wants to deliver the summons to court in a war zone ? If you don't care to use drones step up and serve the warrants . As for collaredal damage if it's a war zone and he is with other terroist is that a bad thing ?

[SHOOTALL]

here you check the deer in the county where it falls 

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I suppose you can be standing in one county and shoot a deer in another, but for the most part deer hunters do not plan or calculate on this equation,,,nor are they able to shoot deer in another country.
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As Judge Napolitano points out above ...drones are best characterized as execution tools that annull/circumvent  the Constitution, Rule of Law, due process, and morality.....
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Its a wonder to see how so-called conservatives endorse their use, just as long as its their perceived and imaginary enemies are the one's being rubbed out, but if the tide changes (and it will) watch out. What goes around comes around.
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..TM7

I ask if someone , a citizen is engauged in attacking America and americans is it not moral to stop him ? Is it not legal to use force to stop an attack where the fear is death or grave bodly harm ? If someone breaks into your home is their consitutional rights what you are thinking about ?

[Swift One]

I wonder how many people on this very forum are considered "terrorists" by this government simply due to the fact that they believe in freedom, liberty and the Bill of Rights as written? We will see assassination via drone of of US citizens right here withn the borders of the good ole' USA sooner rather than later

Kind of a scary truth there.

[BBF]

As stated earlier, you can't leave the U.S. and retain your U.S consitutional rights.  I don't see why that simple concept is no taccepted by intelligent and educated citizens.  Leave your home country at your own risk.........
 
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This may be news to you, the IRS has no problems chasing after US citizen living abroad and earning all their Income offshore as legitimate victims for their fleecing and filing a tax form.
 
So if the IRS considers you as a citizen for taxes, I presume it is only fair that you enjoy all the benefits entitled to you as an American regardless where you are.

[Mike in Virginia]

Lakota, oh my goodness, YES!  Death row is another huge waste of government spending.  Take them from the court room and execute them the same day. 
They sit in prison at our expense for 10 years.  10 years!  They live while their victims lie in their graves.  The death penalty is not so much a taking away of the offenders life as it is giving him lots more years to be alive.  When he finally gets executed, the justice of it is very much diminished.  After his victim died, he should live only long enough to get convicted.  Years of delay is not much of an incentive for the next killer to refrain from doing his thing. 
Even better, would be to take them out like Bonnie and Clyde bit the dust.  Get rid of them as soon as possible.  A killer is two things:  A drain on society to find him, and another drain on society to keep him alive.  I expect maybe you'd feel differently if you had seen the crimes up close, or if one of your own was the victim. 
 

[Defoe]

What I read was the target would have to be in contact and helping the terroist . We are not talking a guy walking down main street that failed to pay some parking tickets . So who wants to deliver the summons to court in a war zone ? If you don't care to use drones step up and serve the warrants . As for collaredal damage if it's a war zone and he is with other terroist is that a bad thing ?

There are plenty of special forces and black-ops people that would probably go serve a warrant.

[SHOOTALL]

I think you miss the point , I would have had no problem shooting the truck with the bomb in it that was used to destory the federal building in OK. 
I don't think that was a muzzie as you call them. And no I am not willing to give up rights . Where did that come from ? Americans who disobey the law and kill other Americans have been delt with by killing them for years , Bonnie and Clyde come to mind. They are not muzzies either.

[Defoe]

As stated earlier, you can't leave the U.S. and retain your U.S consitutional rights.  I don't see why that simple concept is no taccepted by intelligent and educated citizens.  Leave your home country at your own risk.  The same concept applies to citizens of other nations who come here.  They must comply with U.S. law.  U.S. law does not apply, and should not apply, to someone on foreign soil. 

If a bad guy from a foreign country is here visiting American friends and his home country decides to take him out with a drone, is it okay? ?  even though it may kill Ammericans? ?

the proper way is to arrest bad guys when they return to their own country.
firing rockets into another country should be considered an act of war since the rocket kills the bad and the good.

And this is exactly why that we will lose the battle to retain our constitutional rights.
people will suspend the constitution to fight their personal battles without looking at the big picture.  the person killing Americans with drones is the same person who is going to take your guns.
You are either FOR the constitution or against it.  you can't have it both ways.
unless you are a liberal, then you can change the meaning to suit your agenda.

[ChungDoQuan]

The Constitution does not apply in other countries. If the US were a war zone, other countries WOULD be shooting their enemies over here. What if the bad guys don't go back to "their own country?" Nobody is saying we should suspend the Constitution; it simply does not legally apply in other countries. And, by the way, only some other countries will allow the IRS to harass US expatriots over their earnings--- generally, they have to wait until they return to the US. In fact, that will soon be the obvious mistake in privatizing student loans. I predict that many grads will be moving to places like Eastern Europe, or the BRIC countries and telling the banks holding their student loans to bug off.

[cwall]

 I think it is a dangerous thing to give the President (any President) the power to order the killing of a citizen without the due process we are guaranteed in the Constitution.  From what I have heard, he does not even have to have proof of affiliation with terrorist organizations – just the suspicion.  No judge ruling, no nothing.  It is not a big jump for someone like BO or some future ultra liberal to target vocal opponents.  Obama’s administration has already stated that returning gulf war vets, Christians, and Tea Party members should be watched for terrorist activities.  Without the Constitution, it would not take long for this country to become another Stalin’s USSR or Cuba where political opponents disappear or are imprisoned for nothing.

CWall

[Defoe]

The Constitution does not apply in other countries. If the US were a war zone, other countries WOULD be shooting their enemies over here. What if the bad guys don't go back to "their own country?" Nobody is saying we should suspend the Constitution; it simply does not legally apply in other countries. And, by the way, only some other countries will allow the IRS to harass US expatriots over their earnings--- generally, they have to wait until they return to the US. In fact, that will soon be the obvious mistake in privatizing student loans. I predict that many grads will be moving to places like Eastern Europe, or the BRIC countries and telling the banks holding their student loans to bug off.

Judge Andrew Napolitano is way smarter than most when it comes to the constitution.
You being a liberal and an enemy to the constitution, fit right in with obama.
here's the truth of the matter.
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/02/judge-napolitano-killing-americans-with.html

[Victor3]

Victor3: I don't think you can own an ICBM. I might be wrong. I don't think you can declare your own war, personally, either.

 Those are two completely separate issues having nothing to do with the Constitutional rights of the American criminal who stole my wallet and fled the country.


 I wouldn't be "declaring war" anyway, just doing what I (as a "high level official") felt needed to be done. My target might well take the cash out of my wallet and hand it over to Hoos Ben Farteen or some other dangerous terrorist to fund operations against the US.

[SHOOTALL]

OK then by what many are posting old Abe was a guilty of killing Americans with out trial. First he said the South could not leave the union , therefore they were still Americans. He then sent troops which killed many Souther people both civlian and troops.
 But then some claim Obama tries to be like old Abe .
 
Please explain how  a Southerner at Gettysburg attacking Northern troops is any different than an American citizen turned terroist attacking other Americans.

[Defoe]

Judge Napolitano covers this quite well.
.its simply pure unadulerated fascism and murder.

+1

[SHOOTALL]

OK then by what many are posting old Abe was a guilty of killing Americans with out trial. First he said the South could not leave the union , therefore they were still Americans. He then sent troops which killed many Souther people both civlian and troops.
 But then some claim Obama tries to be like old Abe .
 
Please explain how  a Southerner at Gettysburg attacking Northern troops is any different than an American citizen turned terroist attacking other Americans.

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 Linclon was involved with a rebellion/insurection and with outside provoacateurs...a shooting war broke out...there were no terror assassinations from 15,000ft outside of due process as far as I know. From his point of view there was a defined enemy and agenda and he attempted to follow due process, albeit contested by his opponents. In reality the Constitution was weaponized by the South...in fact, the con-federacy was an attempt to reconstitute a monarchy of their making.
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 Earlier you mentioned Bonnie and Clyde...they were killed in the process of apprehension, whether necessary or not I'm not sure,,,,as it seems Hammer and crew became trial, judge, and executioner all in one, which is exactly what terror drone attacks exemplify....extra judicial acts beyond oversight. Judge Napolitano covers this quite well.
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Southerners attacking Northerners and vice versa is the result of a state of open war against each other's stated agenda. This is not akin or analogous to terror drones hunting down Americans in foreign countries--soon to be here in this country--and rubbing them out along with any civilian collaterals just because they're contentious with the policies and actions of the ruling elite..  In fact, its not analogous at all...its simply pure unadulerated fascism and murder skirted under the usual gov pogroms and playing on the fears of The People.  Please do not assist with the fascist boot coming down in this country___in fact, at least fake trying to resist it before we are all Palestinians... . .
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..TM7

Like I said your spin needs work.

[BBF]

Like I said your spin needs work.

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BTW, do you think there is such a thing as too much Freedom and Liberty...?
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..TM7

Well yes, depending on the extend of going above and beyond what is lawful.

[BBF]

I agree, I did have some trouble answering your question since it would leave the door open to Anarchism as the ultimate Liberty and Freedom.

[Victor3]

 As Johnny Carson might have said...


 "Oh...... So just wires and cows then? I did not know that."


"Potential civilian users are as varied as the drones themselves. Power companies want them to monitor transmission lines. Farmers want to fly them over fields to detect which crops need water. Ranchers want them to count cows. Film companies want to use drones to help make movies. Journalists are exploring drones' newsgathering potential.
[/size]The FAA plans to begin integrating drones starting with small aircraft weighing less than about 55 pounds. The agency forecasts an estimated 10,000 civilian drones will be in use in the U.S. within five years."
[/size]
[/size]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/15/faa-drone-request_n_2693982.html[/color]

[BBF]

Not to mention the real possibility to be beneath an air to air meeting of metal.

[Victor3]

V3....I don't consider using technology or droning a bad thing when used for the betterment and progress of us human beings....that's a good thing.  However, I consider use of technology and drones restricting my freedom and liberty, or my privacy; or for extralegal and post-Constitutional activites by gov or agencies to be a bad thing; and that's what we're talking about here. Technology has always cut both ways_ _and we have to grapple with that fact.
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......TM7

 Sorry TM7. Didn't mean to hijack the thread I started.