H&R Buffalo Classic 45-70 pistol powder puff loads

[rfd]

howdy folks.  got a buff classic coming next week and i'm a total newbie to 45-70, but not to both rifle and handgun loading and shooting.  i've read quite a bit about the 45-70 round and would like to start off shooting low recoil cast lead loads.  i'll be using starline brass and winchester lp primers.  got some penn 405gr fn and 360gr spitzer lead coming (.459") and have on hand bullseye and w231 that i use for my handguns.  would like to also find some unique and trail boss powders - man, powder and primers are getting too scarce these dayze!  i've checked the gmdr load data - www.gmdr.com - looks good, but would sure like some input from you good folks.   much obliged.

[RPRNY]

Traill Boss Load Development Guide, from the manufacturer. You will enjoy.

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

[rfd]

Traill Boss Load Development Guide, from the manufacturer. You will enjoy.

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

yep, saw that too - would love to get a canister of trail boss but can't find it ANYWHERE ... dang!

[Doc Fillem]

I've used the info from this site with good results. The calibers are on the left side of the page, scroll down to find what you want.
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[gcrank1]

10.0 gr. of Unique (no filler or wads please) under either of those bullets will be very nice and likely accurate. It is a load that has worked well in countless 45-70s for years.
For a few more 'beans' use 12.0- 13.0gr. Unique.
Do chamber up then point the muzzle to the sky and lower to aim & fire. This orients the powder consistently back to the primer with no need for chamber ring inducing wads (well documented now).
I have no data on Bullseye, though Im sure someone has used it.
I am loving Trail Boss  .

[rfd]

thanx for the link doc, but been there and seen that, looks like good stuff.  i just wanna see if any of y'all are doing something else, thanx.

[rfd]

thanx gcrank1 - as i said already and as most folks these dayze, i can't find any sources for buying trail boss or unique - all my online sources are backordered forever.

[tacklebury]

Try about 34-38 gr. Reloader7 under that bullet.    I've used this for very consistent trap door level loads. 
 
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/5544

[gcrank1]

Do you have access to the old Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (it has been my main cast bullet reference)? It will have more options of powders you may be able to beg or borrow from some mates there. Any of the start loads will be about were you want to be.

[DEACONLLB]

I use Trailboss with a 250 grn. xp soft point and it is a real pleasure to shoot I also use it in a contender super 14 44mag rechamber to 444 marlin with a 240 grn bullet very mild recoil and very little muzzle blast.
 
Deaconllb

[rfd]

trail boss!, Trail Boss!, TRAIL BOSS! - y'all are killin' me! 

who's got it for sale?

[Lonegun1894]

I use 10.0 grs Unique, and as has been said, no fillers, with a Lee plain-based 450gr RNFP bullet that actually casts at 462grs for me.  It shoots one ragged hole at 25yds out of my H&R BC, and gives me about 1.5" at 100yds, but this load is moving slow enough that there is quite a bit of drop by the time it gets to 100.  Recoil is light enough that a friends 7yr old daughter used to shoot this load with no complaints, but needed help actually holding the rifle up.

[rfd]

heck, i can't even get unique let alone trail boss.  double dangit!

[Swampman]

Unique is the best.  It's good for all kinds of stuff.  It was the first smokeless rifle powder.

[petemi]

I think the Good Lord was looking out for me back in September.  I ordered doubles on everything I use, primers, bullets and powders.  I should have plenty to get through the current crazies.

Pete

[geezerbiker]

I stocked up long ago but now with the .45-70, I now have a caliber to load for that I don't have supplies for.  Powder and primers are easy buy brass and bullets, not so much... 

I have 6 plus pounds of Red Dot that I need to use more of.  After I get more familiar with this rifle, I'm going to try some cat sneeze loads with it...

Tony

[rangerwillie]

Here is some info I picked up on the internet some time ago, I do love shooting the collar button.
 

 

 
     45-70 Gov't light loads.

144 grain collar button or 146 grain round ball
8 grains Unique 1135 fps
15 grains 2400 1300 fps
18 grains 4227 1390 fps
20 grains 4198 1350 fps

193 grain 455 Webley revolver bullet sized .457" (mold is rare)
10 grains Unique 1350 fps
16 grains 2400 1260 fps
18 grains 2400 1365 fps
18 grains 4227 1320 fps
19 grains N-200 1330 fps
21 grains 4198 1350 fps

210 grain bullet (mold and manufacturer unknown)
10 grains Unique 1330 fps
17 grains 2400 1310 fps
18 grains 4227 1295 fps
20 grains N-200 1325 fps
22 grains 4198 1400 fps

250 and 255 grain Colt revolver bullets (250 grain gas check #454485)
26 grains 2400 1480 fps
27 grains 4227 1440 fps
28 grains N-200 1460 fps
34 grains 4198 1630 fps
37 grains 3031 1510 fps

Source:Frank C. Barnes, Gun Digest 27th Ed., 1973

Obviously the powders except Unique and N-200 are IMR

[RPRNY]

What powder(s) do you have access to?

You specifically mention "pistol powder" puff loads. But not all pistol powders are alike. H110 or Lilgun for example isnot one that would be ideal for your intended purpose. Tell us what you've got or can get and we may be able to provide more guidance. 

[rfd]

currently loading for pistols - 45acp, 38, 357 - got plenty of bullseye and w231.

[gcrank1]

I really dont know what '45-70' Frank Barnes would have been able to use 45Colt bullets in (WAY too small unless you paper-patched up).
Also, FWIW, as good a reference as his 'Cartridges of the World' is there are some discrepancies from actual cartridges (or in editing/printing things became unclear or incomplete; it does happen). What Im saying is use it for what it is, but dont take it as the 'last word'.

RFD, do I remember correctly that W231 is good for top loads in some handgun cartridges but is not recommended for reduced loads? Ive never used it but it has been around like forever. I think I never got any because I didnt want to make top loads. Ive no idea what it might do in such a voluminous case as a 45-70, maybe bad things.......
Bullseye, RedDot, and 700X Ive used for a number of reduces velo, cast bullet loads, including RedDot in 30ish cal. rifles. They are all on that quick end of the spectrum and a little does a lot, and the risk of double charging is not to be taken lightly. They, as well as Unique, are 'shotgun' powders, so all pretty fast. You will readily find data for Unique and cast bullets in (I think) every caliber known. I somehow expect that an online search may turn up some loads for those faster powders and if so I would carefully consider the level of loads they are talking about (ie. light, mild, or heavier/faster velo) and 'if' I wanted to start low and experiment. There is always a risk when off 'book'.........the good thing about cast bullet 'soft' loads is that dangerous pressure levels are not often achieved. Too light and the bullet fails to exit the bore (bad, but not horrible) and up to, say, 1100fps (sub-sonic) or even a bit more with lead is what I would look for if I were you.
You, of course, as always, are totally on your own when venturing 'off book'.

[rfd]

...

RFD, do I remember correctly that W231 is good for top loads in some handgun cartridges but is not recommended for reduced loads? Ive never used it but it has been around like forever. I think I never got any because I didnt want to make top loads. Ive no idea what it might do in such a voluminous case as a 45-70, maybe bad things.......

Bullseye, RedDot, and 700X Ive used for a number of reduces velo, cast bullet loads, including RedDot in 30ish cal. rifles. They are all on that quick end of the spectrum and a little does a lot, and the risk of double charging is not to be taken lightly. They, as well as Unique, are 'shotgun' powders, so all pretty fast. You will readily find data for Unique and cast bullets in (I think) every caliber known. I somehow expect that an online search may turn up some loads for those faster powders and if so I would carefully consider the level of loads they are talking about (ie. light, mild, or heavier/faster velo) and 'if' I wanted to start low and experiment. There is always a risk when off 'book'.........the good thing about cast bullet 'soft' loads is that dangerous pressure levels are not often achieved. Too light and the bullet fails to exit the bore (bad, but not horrible) and up to, say, 1100fps (sub-sonic) or even a bit more with lead is what I would look for if I were you.
You, of course, as always, are totally on your own when venturing 'off book'.

w231 (and bullseye) make for superb pistol loads in 45acp and 38spl.  tons of established load data for light to heavy loads, none are "reduced".  i can load down 200gr lswc cast bullets for 45acp and 3.8 grains of w231 that my 13yo granddaughter shoots with ease and .22-like recoil at best.  i load it at 4.8 grains for a very accurate round.

the gmdr site pistol load data for 45-70 shows w231 loads for both 350 and 405 grain cast bullets, from 9-13 grain loads.  882-1139fps, but dunno the gun(s) used for their testing.  bullseye is there too, at very similar loads and speeds. 

i've read tons of posts here and elsewhere about using unique and top boss as working extremely well with 45-70 rounds - but haven't read/seen people reporting results with w231 and bullseye, to substantiate the data on the gmdr site.

[gcrank1]

I would like to defer to those here who have experience with W231 to verify, but those figures for both powders look tolerable to me. I dont think I would be taking a jump to consider them well within the capabilities of the H&R (that is to say, I would likely trial either with the start load in MY rifle).
Again, I caution against using any kind of wad, not even a tuft of Dacron or tissue paper, to hold the powder back to the primer. Just raise the muzzle to settle the powder back then lower, sight, shoot. I get the highest and least velo variations doing such and NO danger of the dreaded 'chamber ring' (right at the bullet base in the neck area).

[quickdtoo]

Read the text included on the GMDR site, they show the test gun in every load, they shot 80,000 rounds, so I'd venture to say they did their own testing, likely much more than the powder and bullet mfrs.

Tim

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/4570gtext.htm

[rfd]

Read the text included on the GMDR site, they show the test gun in every load, they shot 80,000 rounds, so I'd venture to say they did their own testing, likely much more than the powder and bullet mfrs.

Tim

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/4570gtext.htm

ah yes, thanx.  marlin 1895 w/22" barrel.   though it probably won't matter all that much, wonder the comparison to my h&r bc w/32" barrel.

[rfd]

I would like to defer to those here who have experience with W231 to verify, but those figures for both powders look tolerable to me. I dont think I would be taking a jump to consider them well within the capabilities of the H&R (that is to say, I would likely trial either with the start load in MY rifle).
Again, I caution against using any kind of wad, not even a tuft of Dacron or tissue paper, to hold the powder back to the primer. Just raise the muzzle to settle the powder back then lower, sight, shoot. I get the highest and least velo variations doing such and NO danger of the dreaded 'chamber ring' (right at the bullet base in the neck area).

yep, that's what i've been reading about pistol powders in rifle cases - no filler and no wads, just pour in the powder and raise up the muzzle to settle it back to the primer 'fore making it go bang!

[RPRNY]

As per above GMDR has a range of Bulllseye data that will serve you well. Paco Kelly of Levergun fame claimed to have killed a coyote at 50 yards pushing a 450 gr pure lead bullet out of just 2.5 grs of Bullseye from a 45-70 Marlin. That coyote may have died of fright or laughed itself to death, but I wouldn't recommend any charge that low...

[rfd]

holy moly, 2.5gr of be in a 45-70?!?!?!  that's scare the beejeezus outta me. 

welp, thanx to all for yer great input - i really appreciate your insights and comments.

i'm gonna work up some 45-70 loads using 231 and be, and 360gr and 405gr cast bullets, following the gmdr data.

much obliged, folks - i really like this site!

[Dinny]

I just bought another pound of TB at the BPS in Clarksville, IN for $18.99. I use 11gr under a 330gr Lyman cast HP for about 1050fps from my 28" BC barrel.

Thanks, Dinny

[gcrank1]

Was it a true pound or the 9oz. in the about normal 1# size jug? We had an outlet selling the 9oz at about $16 a while back but the 5# for $100; that was a no brainer for me.

[Dinny]

just a small can. Probably was only 9 oz.

Thanks, Dinny